EU Court - It's okay to ban religious symbols

[GeordieGirl]

Another teeny step 'forward', this one through the European Court.

 

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/world/its-okay-to-ban-religious-symbols-european-union-court/news-story/908d90c55e83951652642e9a570ea6e6?utm_source=emarsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PerthNow+AM+update+15%2F3%2F17

 

COMPANIES may ban staff from wearing Islamic headscarves and other visible religious symbols, the European Union’s top court has ruled ......

 

In its first ruling on an issue that has become highly charged across Europe, the Court of Justice (ECJ) has found a Belgian firm which had a rule that employees who dealt with customers should not wear visible religious or political symbols may not have discriminated against a Muslim receptionist it dismissed for wearing a headscarf.

The judgement on that and a French case came on the eve of a Dutch election in which Muslim immigration is a key issue and weeks before a similarly charged presidential vote in France, where headscarves are banned in public service jobs.

French conservative candidate Francois Fillon hailed the ECJ ruling as “an immense relief” to companies and workers that would contribute to “social peace”.

 

And of course the various groups of clay toes are arguing that the ruling is wrong and contravenes this, that and the other.

[Tortuga]

4 minutes ago, GeordieGirl said:

COMPANIES may ban staff from wearing Islamic headscarves and other visible religious symbols, the European Union’s top court has ruled ......

...what if we wear a JW.ORG badge to work?

[JudyO]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

...what if we wear a JW.ORG badge to work?

You might want to look into self employment......?

[EccentricM]

First it's symbols. Once they get away with that, then it will be singular laws or doctrines. And then after  that additional doctrines get banned over time, piling up one after the over. Soon governments will declare religions no longer compatible with modern society. It wont be long till the harlot gets altogether eaten by the beast. The signs are all around, it's just creeping it's way up there. 

[Shawnster]

10 hours ago, Tortuga said:

...what if we wear a JW.ORG badge to work?

Good point.  JW.org is not a symbol of my religion.

 

My religion doesn't have special symbols for use in worship.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Shawnster

[Qapla]

42 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

Good point.  JW.org is not a symbol of my religion.

 

My religion doesn't have special symbols for use in worship.

 

You may not view it as a symbol ..... but, that does not mean that everyone shares your view. Some who are not JW's may view the JW.org pin as a symbol or our religion just like some of those who wear a headscarf may not view them as a religious symbol.

 

 

[Tortuga]

11 hours ago, GeordieGirl said:

COMPANIES may ban staff from wearing Islamic headscarves and other visible religious symbols, the European Union’s top court has ruled .

Would this apply to crosses?

[Shawnster]

40 minutes ago, Qapla said:

You may not view it as a symbol ..... but, that does not mean that everyone shares your view. Some who are not JW's may view the JW.org pin as a symbol or our religion just like some of those who wear a headscarf may not view them as a religious symbol.

 

 

 

If I cannot object on religious grounds (which is protected in the States), then I must comply with the direction.  

 

However, if others are allowed to wear pins promoting URLs, then I should be allowed the same privilege.  Of course, they may take exception of the URLs are links to religious sites.   No CBN or TBN pin for you!

[carlos]

26 minutes ago, Qapla said:

You may not view it as a symbol ..... but, that does not mean that everyone shares your view. Some who are not JW's may view the JW.org pin as a symbol or our religion just like some of those who wear a headscarf may not view them as a religious symbol.

That's true, but if you wear such a badge to work and your company tells you to take it out, you would comply. I don't think any Witness would try to stir the pot going to court about that. Besides, he could never say that symbol is required by his religion. It's just a personal preference. If the company has a dress code that forbids badges, it is what it is.

 

Just now, Tortuga said:

Would this apply to crosses?

Yes, it does apply to visible crosses. Obviously the whole issue doesn't have to do with crosses but with the Islamic veil. Few people in Europe are bothered if you have a cross, but many customers will avoid your business if they are served by a woman wearing an Islamic veil, so companies forbid it. Of course, they cannot forbid Islamic symbols while allowing those of other religions since that would be discriminatory. So this sentence included all visible symbols of any political, philosophical or religious ideology.

[Tortuga]

2 minutes ago, carlos said:

they cannot forbid Islamic symbols while allowing those of other religions since that would be discriminatory.

Its going to be interesting to see how this develops...

[ChocoBro]

As far as I understood it, this is not a legal ban on religious symbols at the workplace but granting an employer the right to determine whether an employee can do so or not.

 

So if your employer asks you not to use your jw.org mug to drink the coffee, because he feels it disturbs the peace at work you need to comply. If he doesn't care, you can wear that jw.org pin.

 

Interestingly, there was a EU court rouling only a few years ago that stated clearly Christians are allowed to wear a cross openly at the workplace.

 

Thank goodness we don't have any silly rituals or talismans like this that make our life more complicated than it needs to be.

[carlos]

Just now, ChocoBro said:

As far as I understood it, this is not a legal ban on religious symbols at the workplace but granting an employer the right to determine whether an employee can do so or not.

Exactly, this is not a prohibition, just a sentence saying your employer has the right to establish a dress code for his company.

 

Being realistic, most employers don't mind what you wear as long as it doesn't affect their business results.

 

[Tortuga]

7 minutes ago, ChocoBro said:

As far as I understood it, this is not a legal ban on religious symbols at the workplace but granting an employer the right to determine whether an employee can do so or not.

That's what makes it so interesting to me.  It's easy to see that this could lead to protests and discrimination suits.  The ruling will help to divide people instead of protect them.

[Shawnster]

The hijab or whatever it's called is an interesting case.  I cannot wear a full face mask when I go into a convenience store or most any business.  However, if my religion requires me to keep my face covered (like these women with their Islamic head covering), then I should have the right to do so.

 

Is it any wonder why people are finally tired of other people hiding behind religion to do as they please?  

 

A simple scarf shouldn't be an issue so long as the face is clearly visible.  Concealing the face, however, brings about a level of security concern.  

 

I want my religious beliefs respected and honored by the government and, therefore, I should respect an honor the religious beliefs of others.  It's a catch-22.  Their religion dictates having a full face cover but that scares off customers or makes people uncomfortable.

 

But yes, it's clear this law is an attack on Islam.  People aren't upset at the display of the cross.  They probably wouldn't be upset at a Star of David pin or necklace.  Odds are if Islam was like Judaism and Christendom in that they simply wore some small little crescent pin or wore just the scarf or bonnet, nobody would have much to complain about.  The fact that these women MUST (according to their religion) go with their entire face covered and since there is a heightened concern about fundamental Islamic terrorists makes this an issue.

 

It's all a mess.

[Tortuga]

Wasn't there a ruling about the Kirpan?

[carlos]

49 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

 Odds are if Islam was like Judaism and Christendom in that they simply wore some small little crescent pin or wore just the scarf or bonnet, nobody would have much to complain about.  

I agree with your comments.  Just a small correction: This whole issue is about the hiyab,  the scarf as you call it. 

 

The burka,  that covers the whole face, is only worn in a few of the most radical Islamic countries,  and is banned in many places in Europe due to safety concerns. 

[Mykyl]

.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Mykyl

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, carlos said:

I agree with your comments.  Just a small correction: This whole issue is about the hiyab,  the scarf as you call it. 

 

The burka,  that covers the whole face, is only worn in a few of the most radical Islamic countries,  and is banned in many places in Europe due to safety concerns. 

 

That makes the ban even worse.  Plenty of women throughout history and across the globe have worn a headscarf.

[Stormswift]

15 hours ago, EccentricM said:

First it's symbols. Once they get away with that, then it will be singular laws or doctrines. And then after  that additional doctrines get banned over time, piling up one after the over. Soon governments will declare religions no longer compatible with modern society. It wont be long till the harlot gets altogether eaten by the beast. The signs are all around, it's just creeping it's way up there. 

While they are focusing on the 'symbol' side of the issue at the moment, you will find that the mandate to the UN includes religious 'garb' as well. 

 

Tortuga ... why would one wear a jw.org pin to work? And secondly ... how do you affix it to your shell?

[Shawnster]

Why do people wear nationalistic pins to work?  Here in the US it's quite common to see someone wear a pin on their shirt lapel.  More so men on a sports jacket.  Most often it's the US Flag (mark of the beast for this particular region).

Edited March 15, 2017 by Shawnster

[Stormswift]

41 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

Why do people wear nationalistic pins to work?  Here in the US it's quite common to see someone wear a pin on their shirt lapel.  More so men on a sports jacket.  Most often it's the US Flag (mark of the beast for this particular region).

 

I wasn't questioning nationalistic pins, i was wondering why one would wear a jw.org pin/badge to work? 

[Qapla]

Why not wear one to work if there is no objection?

 

Some people wear them everywhere - some people do not wear them at all.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Qapla

[Stormswift]

I don't think its right or wrong ... I was just wondering why one would that's all. It's not  a huge culture here in NZ. We (being those who choose) wear the pins out on the carts or other forms of public witnessing, but I've never come across anyone who would wear it to work.  

 

It's my opinion though ... at work our conduct, speech and morality should be the loudest witness to us being one of Jehovah's people, not a pin ... but that doesn't mean wearing one to work means it's wrong - or is it? I don't even know what the FDS thinks or has said in this regard as it's a non issue here in NZ - so far.

 

Nothing wrong with asking the question Brother John, its great to understand other points of view ... because points of view in NZ is not the only point of view always great to learn.

[carlos]

58 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

Why do people wear nationalistic pins to work?  Here in the US it's quite common to see someone wear a pin on their shirt lapel.  More so men on a sports jacket.  Most often it's the US Flag (mark of the beast for this particular region).

It's all about the money. The anti-Muslim feeling is growing every day in Europe. Many people will prefer to buy somewhere else if you have an Islamic hiyab. The employer doesn't care what your religion is but he cares if he loses customers.

 

On the other hand, Mosques have also radicalized. Some years ago it was very unusual to see a woman with a veil in Spain even though there were many Muslim women. But recently those women are being pressured to use the hiyab. Women who never had a problem with the company dress code suddenly cannot go to work without their hiyab.

 

I guess all of this is someone's strategy to polarize and confront Muslims and non-Muslims.

[Cushi]

37 minutes ago, carlos said:

It's all about the money. The anti-Muslim feeling is growing every day in Europe. Many people will prefer to buy somewhere else if you have an Islamic hiyab. The employer doesn't care what your religion is but he cares if he loses customers.