Jump to content
JWTalk - Jehovah's Witnesses Online Community

Leaderboard

Popular Content

Showing content with the highest reputation on 04/19/2017 in all areas

  1. SIMPLIFIED VERSION: Wednesday Morning Session 10"05 Our Lawyer begins by drawing attention to all the times Russian authorities have burst into our Kingdom Halls, breaking up our meetings for questioning and issuing warnings against their bible study. 10"15 Their Lawyers (Ministry of Justice=MoJ) wants the court to examine new documents they have dug up, still trying to prove the congregations are "branches" of the Bethel Russia HeadQuarters. The brothers object to this "evidence", pointing out some of these documents date from 1998 the Bethel wasn't even registered under present laws. The Brothers point out these documents were just so that the congregation's were legally in order. The Judge accepts to examine the documents but not those that are really old (before 1998) 10"25 The first of these documents is the MoJ (Their Lawyers) again asking that the Russian Branch and all the congregations be banned. The Judge asks if they have any new information to go with these "new documents" to justify doing this. They have nothing. Our Laywers point out that some of the property listed on the documents don't even belong to the Russian Branch. - Next they examine the document "The Beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses" and highlights the part that says we are told to be tolerant and show love for other people. The part that says we value giving our children an good education was also read aloud. - Next they look at the Branch Guidelines (?) and ask about the various congregations in Russia. The Judge wants to know how many JWs "unregistered" congregations or groups are there. The brothers explain that the forming of a congregation is a spiritual not a legal matter and under Russian law religion and State are separate. The brothers don't keep legal documentation about congregations or groups, so they cannot give the Judge any more information on that question. 11"00 [After a short break] The Court looks at various convictions against the Witnesses, including the famous case of the Taganrog congregation. The accusations were that the Witnesses don't take blood, criticize other religions and don't perform their civic duties (join the army). The brothers point out that this conviction was made before the law was changed that said that criticising religion cannot be considered "extremist". They also point out that the books and brochures considered "extremist" in this case had nothing whatsoever "extremist" about them. For example in the Brochure "Jehovah's Witnesses: Who are they" they said it was "extremist" to say "We do not take up arms" (join the army). 11"10 Our brothers point out that in many of the cases against the JWs congregations, the Russian Branch wasn't even mentioned, so how can the MoJ (Their Lawyers) be using these convictions against the Bethel (Russian Branch)? And besides, some of those convictions were overturned (struck down) by higher courts in Russia. Next they look at the MoJ accusation that the Bethel were hiding information and secretly importing banned literature. The Brothers point out that the Bethel gave the authority, the only information not provided was that which should come from the customs authorities not the brothers. 11"30 The MoJ says "Yes, but you didn't tell us about all your congregations" The Brothers respond, "We don't have to, that's a spiritual not a legal matter". The JUDGE notices in the documents there is the Business report of the Bethel (what they do with their money). The Judge wants do know why they included this. The MoJ says "Because they might be using their money to to help extremists" The Judge asks "Do you have any proof that the money may be used for extremist goals rather than perfectly legal one" The MoJ has no proof. Our Lawyer (Master Tapor (?)) says "Listen we had a full audit, everything was checked and found to be perfectly legal so why are these documents in there?" Our Lawyer Master Omelchenko adds "You say we might be funding "extremist": Can you provide the court with details: How much money? Who did we give it to? When did we give this money? etc. The MoJ says "Er well, no we don't have any such information. 11"45 The Brothers note in their documents they have a list of the property of Brothers and Sisters. The Brothers ask why did you include this information. Answer: So if you are found guilty (as we hope) we can go ahead and take their houses. 11"50 The Court looks at letters and documents from authorities saying Thank you to the Witnesses for the good work they do in the community. Their Lawyers says "Yeah well that's just a cover for your "missionary work". Our Lawyers respond "Ok so when we give money to the congregations its "extremists" and when those same congregations help their communities is some kind of "dirty trick". How can it be both? 11"55 Our Lawyer Master Zhenkov next shows that it was the same Ministry of Justice experts who in 1999 examined the Jehovah's Witnesses and said they could be recognized as a legal religion. Are you now saying YOUR experts got it all wrong? 12"00 The brothers then point out the many many volumes of 70 experts that testify that Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT extremists. For example one expert said he found nothing wrong with our book "Mankind's Search for God" but it was banned nonetheless. The MoJ responds, "Yes those experts are just giving their personal opinions" Our Lawyer Master Omelchenko comes right back "That is incorrect, these experts were giving testifying as requested by courts, police and customs authorities" 12"15 Our Lawyers point to the terrible injustices that have been committed against the brothers. Many of whom were put in jail for years only for the courts to later find them innocent and release them. And now those same brothers and sisters risk going through the same thing again. - Next our Lawyer Novekov points out the planting of banned literature in Kingdom Halls; he gives the example of this happening in November 2016 which was even recorded by the security cameras. - Our Lawyer points out the that MoJ did nothing but rubber stamp (approve without examination) the claims of "extremist literature" whereever it came from in the country. 12"25 Their Lawyers bring up the blood issue. The brothers point out that the ECHR (The Highest court in Europe) has fully examined the cases being brought up and that court found that no crime had been committed. People have the legal right to refuse blood transfusions if they wish. 12"45 The Brothes point out the double standard when it comes to so-called "extremist" literature; we are not given a chance to defend ourselves when one of our books is declared "extremist" and once they are banned, our opposers use those books to try and close the Bethel. 13"00 The Brothers ask the Judge if he will accept to look at Video recordings that prove that the authorities planted banned literature in our Halls. They give the example of a "plant" in Leznobloye. The JUDGE wants to know, did you appeal the decision. Our Lawyers: We did, yes but no one will listen to us. The JUDGE accepts to look at the evidence(the paperwork) but not the video recordings. There's a lot of material (43 volumes) The brothers read a statment that they are not extremist posted on the new JW-org Russian site (the old jw.org site was banned by the authorities). The Court now knows that the Watchtower society owns this new site (www.jw-russia.org). 13"30 The Court examines more documents about the congregations. Nothing proving anything illegal has been done by them. Their Lawyers want to add the various police warnings that the congregations were given. BREAK FOR LUNCH
    17 points
  2. SIMPLIFIED Afternoon SESSION 14"40 The COURT continues to look at different documents. 14"45 The JUDGE point out that the records of the Elders meetings regarding the legal guidelines for the congregation look very similar. The Brothers respond that's not because the Bethel tells them what to do but because the elders from differrent congregretions talk to each other. JUDGE Anyway do you want me to say all the convictions of the Jehovah's Wtinesses in the past were wrong? That is not what we are asking you to say. But you CAN say if all these convictions are relevant to the decision you want to make here or not. 15"02 Our Lawyer Master Novakov presents pictures that prove that it was the authorities that planted banned books in our kingdom Halls. He says its a country wide conspriacy. We even have proof that one of the people that planted books is friends with someone in authority. Another conviction was based on false testimony, and we know it was a false testimony because the individual later admitted they had lied (because the Police put pressure on them to). In another case the courts agreed that literature had been planted. 15"20 Our Lawyer Master Topors says "Anyway, the point is since the Russian Branch wasn't even involved in these cases, why are you trying to use them as "evidence" to close the Branch? 15"25 The Brothers present documents from various National (Russian) and International organizations appealing to Russia to stop the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses. 15"42 Their Lawyes AGAIN try and bring up the blood issue. Our Lawyers say that has nothing to do with this case. Legally refusing blood is not considered "extremist" but a legal right. Secondly the blood cases you want to include as "evidence" don't even mention the Russian Branch. Thirdly medical records are confidential and you can't just present the conclusion you'd have to also present the medical history. AND in none of the cases did the parent refuse alternative medical treatement. Finally our Lawyer Zhenkov points out that certain practices of the Russian Orthodox and Muslim community can be considered dangerous for a person's health but you don't see the MoJ calling for Islam to be liquidated do you?! THE JUDGE: Okay listen we aren't going to include any of those blood cases. 16"22 Their Lawyers want to include an "internal document" obtained by the TV Journalist, dealing (presumably) with the use of donations. The JUDGE Allows that document to be included. 16"35 The MoJ (returning to the issue that congregations are legal "branches" of the Bethel) says "Your HQ decides who the head of the local congregational associations are". The Brothers point out the Bethel makes "recommendations" not "orders". 16"40 The MoJ (Them) wants the judge to look at the list of all the property owned by the Russian Branch and the local congregations. SHORT BREAK
    14 points
  3. Pretty draining, this entire process. May Jehovah keep infusing our dear brothers with the strength and wisdom required in this court case.
    14 points
  4. I would LOVE the Vatican or indeed any of the other churches to go through the kind of scrutiny our organization is going through... there would be accountants fleeing the country on cargo boats before the summons arrived. The Vatican would simply refuse to be scrutinized at all. Their day will come. R
    13 points
  5. SIMPLIFIED VERSION: 19 April Evening. 17"11 [Afer a short break] Regarding the list of Property "owned" by the Russian Branch and the local congregations the Brothers explain, its not up-to-date. The JUDGE says no matter we'll include the list. 17"16 THE JUDGE (returning to the question of whether the congregations are Bethel "Branches") asks to see the guidelines for the associations provided by the Bethel. The Brothers give the judge a copy and point out that nowhere does it use the words "Sub-division" or "branch" for the congregations. That they are associated by faith in a religious not a legal structure. The JUDGE confirms he won' t be looking at any video footage. 17"29 End of Court for today. BACK 20 APRIL 2017
    12 points
  6. if it's included, doesn't it have to be accepted as evidence ? and it is clearly evidence against them. or maybe he has already seen it and is embarrassed by it. It's easier to have an argument over the meaning of words . They are looking for the tiniest indications or discrepancies. Should we offer them a magnifying glass? I wouldn't doubt they pull the Pharisee trick , same as against Jesus and say "what do you have to say about all this evidence against you", when The Pharisee couldn't get two false witnesses to agree. Stay tuned for tomorrows continuing court case. Same bat time, same bat channel, or in this case same Russian time, same Russian channel. But on a more serious note, I've been praying with tears this morning . May Jehovah turn their words against them and turn their cursing into a blessing for his people. Oh Jehovah, that people may know, you alone are the most high over all the earth.
    12 points
  7. This statement proves we are extremists! "... deemed extremist for mentioning(in our brochure) that Jehovah's Witnesses do not take up arms" This is an "extremist" viewpoint of peace because the majority of people in the world would not agree with NOT taking up arms to fight for their country or beliefs. I guess we are extremist after all. We are guilty as charged!
    12 points
  8. So we now have to wait until the 20th. Well, Jehovah's name is being broadcast all over through the press and through the internet. Jehovah strengthen our brothers, in Jesus' name. Strengthen Brother Sanderson. Protect them all.
    11 points
  9. 15:42 The court returns to the resolution of petitions previously claimed, but deferred. The representative of the Ministry of Justice asked to attach to the case 12 judgments, giving doctors the right to use donor blood for the treatment of minors. Representatives of the defendant believe that these decisions are not relevant. First, the rejection of blood transfusion is not related to the concept of "extremism" (there are no other grounds other than extremist activity, the Justice Ministry does not cite the ban on Jehovah's Witnesses). Secondly, the UC was not a party to those court cases and is not even mentioned in any of the decisions. Thirdly, the introduction of these decisions affects medical confidentiality. To give them an assessment, you will need to seek the consent of patients, as well as their medical records. In all decisions, without exception, it is said that parents wanted to treat their children and applied to medical institutions. About the refusal of treatment did not go to lie down. Lawyer Zhenkov draws attention to the fact that the ECHR ruling, which gives legal interpretation of the refusal of blood transfusions, gives examples of prohibitions in Islam and Orthodoxy that may be potentially hazardous to health. "However, the Justice Ministry does not come out with a lawsuit to liquidate the centralized organizations of these religions," notes Zhenkov. 15:59 The court refuses to include court decisions related to blood transfusion procedures.
    11 points
  10. What the MoJ is saying is those studies were paid by the Witnesses, so they cannot be trusted to be impartial. Then our lawyers showed those studies were not requested nor paid by JWs but by different Russian courts.
    11 points
  11. The court announces a 10-minute technical break. Translation: The lawyers for the Ministry of Justice cannot get their computers "working" properly Translation: The lawyers are delaying since they don't know how to respond
    11 points
  12. 16:20 The court asks why the Ministry of Justice did not apply to local courts on these acts. The Ministry of Justice explains that the violations were minor or eliminated. Representatives of the respondent note that these acts are not connected with extremist activity. The court refuses to attach these acts to the case materials.
    10 points
  13. this is amazing that we are able to follow along , almost in real time, and even have it translated for us to English and many other languages so fast, for the world to see. Russia is no longer behind an iron curtain. When all is said and done, the outcome will circle the globe like a flash of lightning from east to west, .....or is it west to east....
    10 points
  14. 15:25 The documents signed by various international and domestic bodies and organizations are examined and express concern about the application of anti-extremist legislation to Jehovah's Witnesses. Omelchenko reads out the most characteristic excerpts from these documents, including appeals to the Russian Federation to stop the political persecution of believers.
    10 points
  15. Correct me if I'm wrong here, because I certainly don't wish to cause alarm if there is no basis for it. Why is this court case so important? Because of a ban? I don't think so .. if it were simply a ban, we historically thrive under such, and are doing so in many countries as I type this. It's the term extremist ... that makes this more horrendous ... because once a group or individuals are deemed legally extremists, then yes, their private property is then affected, they cannot hold jobs, their bank accounts are often frozen and property confiscated,this is why many are referring back to world war II when 'enemies of the state' were renegated to slums because their homes were taken from them. They cannot leave or travel to other countries as passports are revoked. So a ban is bad enough, but the label extremist is an attempt by Satan and his Cohorts (including the Russian Orthodox) to label us extremists, so THEY can continue to practice their beliefs because they haven't been labelled so. So we really need to hope for the best here but expect the worst ... and if it goes bad, we have to remember they are poking Jehovah's eyeball. He will act, either in this courtcase or according to his time schedule.
    10 points
  16. For example, little wife [mistranslation of our lawyer's name], referring to the conclusions of state expert institution, quotes from the book "Mankind's Search for God" (* included in FSEM). In the book it is written: "To study the different religions does not mean betraying their own faith. It can, on the contrary, strengthened when we see other people looking for the truth and that it is enabled. Knowledge gives insight and understanding of - tolerance for people who have different views. I like this bit. The irony is that the Russian Orthodox Church has proven to be highly intolerant towards others, yet no issue is made about this.
    10 points
  17. Perhaps Presiding Judge will ask for a Bible Study when the case is done ? Well, if they don't have a data why going to the court then? Seriously.. Ministry of Justice is a joke.
    10 points
  18. Wow hard to believe the people there think you are a 'secret sect' when you are the most visual religion out there! Going from door to door, having large conventions, leaving literature everywhere you can! The 170,000 witnesses in Russia are more visible than the 100 million Russian Orthodox!
    9 points
  19. Nor sure if this translation is correct but I think the Court is looking into our lawyers claims that there has been an "unreliability" of the Ministry of Justice's conclusions about JWs hiding information about "importing literature". So if I am understanding this correctly, the Russian Branch has "provided more than 70,000 sheets of documents for examination to the Ministry of Justice". So I guess 70,000 sheets of information/documents is not enough and is considered "hiding". What is considered "not hiding" information? 80,000 documents?
    9 points
  20. That's what I just can't get: we are trying to talk to everyone to tell about our belief and they call us "the most secret sect". Now they just turning us inside out in this court process and we are glad to explain everything. I just wonder would they continue to call us a secret sect?
    8 points
  21. First, the rejection of blood transfusion is not related to the concept of "extremism" (there are no other grounds other than extremist activity, the Justice Ministry does not cite the ban on Jehovah's Witnesses). he court refuses to include court decisions related to blood transfusion procedures. WOW!!!
    8 points
  22. Strange that they let all those "extremists" stand out the front of the court.
    8 points
  23. ""The Justice Ministry has no information"" I love that statement !!!!
    8 points
  24. Those 70 000 sheets do not include information about importing literature. Brothers refused to present the Ministry of Justice this information because Ministry could ask for it from the Customs. I think brothers mentioned 70 000 sheets to show they provided everything they had to present and they do not have anything to hide. It was not their responsibility to provide information about importing literature.
    8 points
  25. So, in effect, we have ISIS and the like at one end of the extremist spectrum and Jehovah's WItnesses at the other end of the spectrum. So yes in that respect we are extremists, but only because the world has made what is normal - abnormal and what is abnormal normal. Their spiritual compass is non existant - their North is not true North ... so yes by definition of the above - we are extremists, but in a very positive light.
    8 points
  26. While some governments wouldn't define the term"Extremist" like this below, here are a couple of interesting definitions of "Extremist" from several well known dictionaries: (Merriam-Webster) "belief in and support for ideas that are very far from what most people consider correct or reasonable" (Cambridge Dictionary) "someone who has beliefs that most people think are unreasonable and unacceptable"
    8 points
  27. Rosie, I also really appreciate your simplified version of the proceedings. I can understand what they're saying now. See ya tomorrow.
    7 points
  28. Something tells me they have already seen the video, so don't want to see it again. They already know what it shows.
    7 points
  29. Wonder why the court is refusing to watch the video evidence of the literature being planted but will accept the transcipts of the video into evidence?
    7 points
  30. they running out of arguments....so they return to the blood issue....
    7 points
  31. 70 experts who examined our literature said that we are not extremist.
    7 points
  32. Lawyer Zhenkov, referring to the representative of the Ministry of Justice: "Svetlana Konstantinovna, when it came to financing the LRO, you suspected extremist goals. When believers participate in helping the city, you again assume some kind of dirty trick.!» It can not be so! " Caught in their own contradictions !!!!
    7 points
  33. I think Ministry of Justice lawyers were expecting easy victory .... well, so far this is not a case.
    7 points
  34. 7 points
  35. 1:00 pm In the materials of the case there are DVD-discs with videotapes of flops. A spokesman for Novakov said that the materials would help to understand whether the UC has any relation to prohibited materials in local liturgical buildings or other persons are related to them. Discs will help to see the reaction of the believers themselves - how they react indignantly at the appearance of prohibited materials in the liturgical buildings. 13:05 Court: to what period of time do the videos belong? Novakov: The events in the village of Nezlobnoye date back to September 2016. Only thanks to the video recording, law enforcement officers refused to commit criminal charges against the LRO. Novakov describes the outrageous details of falsifications that have fallen into camera lenses in other Russian cities. 13:10 The court asks the representatives of the defendant whether all these facts have been appealed in the established order. And if so, are there any results. Representatives of the defendant confirm that they have been appealed and continue to appeal at the instance, but so far they have been unsuccessful. The court proceeds to examine other evidence without viewing the video.
    6 points
  36. Sorry. I am here. I was a bit late but I have been reading and have now caught up.
    6 points
  37. That reminds me of Titus 1:15 "All things are clean to clean people..." Their mind is distorted so their arguments are also twisted.
    6 points
  38. 11:30 The representative of the Ministry of Justice draws attention to the fact that, according to one of the documents, more than 2,000 unregistered groups operate under the leadership of the UC. The lawyers explain that this is an internal spiritual structure. The court is interested in the representative of the Ministry of Justice, for what purpose they were attached to the business turnover balance sheet. The representative of the Ministry of Justice explains that the statements indicate that "money may have been sent to finance extremist activities." The court asks, from which it can be seen that money was spent on extremist activity, rather than on ordinary statutory goals. The Ministry of Justice does not have exact data. The representative of Topors draws attention to the fact that, within the framework of the audit, the Ministry of Justice provided all contracts of targeted donations of the Center, which provided the deciphering of the purpose of all financial transfers. The legal question of the representative: "Why did not the Ministry of Justice submit these documents to the court?"
    6 points
  39. "Was deemed extremist for mentioning that Jehovah's Witnesses do not take up arms. There is nothing to add...!!!
    6 points
  40. Have you noticed that Brother Sanderson is still attending the trial... 10.05 - first photo
    6 points
  41. translation is as good as ever.... 9am In front of the Supreme Court, people are more than ever crowded. The line began to line up from the night. Many specially arrived from different cities of Russia. As the weather in Moscow is cold, most are dressed in winter. From time to time someone brought coffee and cakes for those standing in line. The police officers work professionally and in a coordinated manner to provide safety for the hearers of the process. 10:05 Females declare a petition for the attachment of fresh documents. He reports that in March-April 2017 law enforcement agencies throughout Russia, referring to the ongoing process, invade the liturgical buildings, demand that they stop, question the believers, and rewrite the passport data. Procuratorial warnings are issued on criminal liability for extremism in connection with holding meetings to study the Bible. Ministry of Justice objects to familiarizing. The court determines to attach.
    6 points
This leaderboard is set to New York/GMT-04:00

About JWTalk.net - Jehovah's Witnesses Online Community

Since 2006, JWTalk has proved to be a well-moderated online community for real Jehovah's Witnesses on the web. However, our community is not an official website of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is not endorsed, sponsored, or maintained by any legal entity used by Jehovah's Witnesses. We are a pro-JW community maintained by brothers and sisters around the world. We expect all community members to be active publishers in their congregations, therefore, please do not apply for membership if you are not currently one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

JWTalk 23.8.11 (changelog)