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BroJPM

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  1. Good day everyone, i came across a book entitled "Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas or was it Novas.. not sure now.. anyway, has anyone here had a look at the book and do you think it's a good source for more history on the subject? I recently read a book by Richard E. Rubenstein -"When Jesus became God". wow what an interesting book that was from the historical perspective on the topic! Thank you in advanced.
  2. We just had our convention this weekend here in South Africa and 3 full languages got the new Translation. Afrikaans, Xhosa (the main Bible society of SA recently did a new bible and removed Jehovah’s name that had it in) and there was one more but can’t remember what language. Such a blessing!
  3. The AGM is normally the first weekend of October, is it this weekend? I wonder what awesome things will come out😉🤲🏼
  4. Is there a way to get one book with the complete NWT in two languages even if say the first one starts in English then after the appendix the next one starts? Has it been done before? I have heard of ones making one bible with the reasoning book joined at the end.
  5. Wish this was in English, don’t understand a word she is saying but looks like she is a good speaker? What is the main points she is saying? Seems it’s about JW’s
  6. Yes what you are saying about the vowels are interesting, I can’t say why they changed the one but that is a excellent question! The whole debate over W/V I am not to worried about as you say things change in different languages. I found this just on that YRM group where this question was asked with a answer from yrm: Nehemia Gordon, a Karaite Jew, has now discovered over 1,000 manuscripts with the proper pronunciation Yehovah. Considering this newfound evidence, why do you continue to use Yahweh? Posted on January 24, 2018 by YRM Nehemia Gordon, a Karaite Jew, has now discovered over 1,000 manuscripts with the proper pronunciation Yehovah. Considering this newfound evidence, why do you continue to use Yahweh? There are several facts to acknowledge regarding Nehemia Gordon’s “new” finding. To begin with, all these Hebrew documents with the vowel points forming Yehovah are from the 9th century or later and part of the Masoretic manuscripts. According to the overwhelming majority of scholarship, the Masoretes purposefully added the vowel points from Adonai to the Tetragrammaton, forming the hybrid Yehovah (also rendered as Yehowah or Jehovah). In the history of the Ministry, we have actually never seen a scholarly reference confirming Yehovah. Consider the following: “In the early Middle Ages, when the consonantal text of the Bible was supplied with vowel points to facilitate its correct traditional reading, the vowel points for Adonai with one variation – a sheva (short ‘e’) with the first yod [Y] of YHWH instead of the hataf-patah (short ‘a’) under the aleph of Adonai – was used for YHWH, thus producing the form YeHoWaH. When Christian scholars of Europe first began to study Hebrew they did not understand what this really meant, and they introduced the hybrid name ‘Jehovah’” (Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 7, p. 680). “Jehovah, modern form of the Hebrew sacred name of God, probably originally ‘Yahweh.’ From c.300 B.C. the Jews, from motives of piety, uttered the name of God very rarely and eventually not at all, but substituted the title ‘Adonai,’ meaning ‘Lord,’ the vowels of which were written under the consonants of ‘Yahweh.’ In the Middle Ages and later, the vowels of one word with the consonants of the other were misread as Jehovah” (The Collegiate Encyclopedia, vol. 9, p. 580). “Jehovah….What has been said explains the so-called qeri perpetuum, according to which the consonants of Jehovah are always accompanied in the Hebrew text by the vowels of Adonai except in the cases in which Adonai stands in apposition to Jehovah: in these cases the vowels of Elohim are substituted. The use of a simple shewa in the first syllable of Jehovah, instead of the compound shewa in the corresponding syllable of Adonai and Elohim, is required by the rules of Hebrew grammar governing the use of Shewa” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. VIII, p. 329). “Jehovah, an erroneous pronunciation of the name of the God of Israel in the Bible, due to pronouncing the vowels of the term ‘Adonay,’ the marginal Masoretic reading with the consonants of the text-reading ‘Yahweh,’ which was not uttered to avoid the profanation of the divine name of magical or other blasphemous purposes. Hence the substitution of ‘Adonay,’ the ‘Lord,’ or ‘Adonay Elohim,’ ‘Lord God.’ The oldest Greek versions use the term ‘Kurios,’ ‘Lord,’ the exact translation of the current Jewish substitute for the original Tetragrammaton Yahweh. The reading ‘Jehovah’ can be traced to the early Middle Ages and until lately was said to have been invented by Peter Gallatin (1518), confessor of Pope Leo X. Recent writers, however, trace it to an earlier date; it is found in Raymond Martin’s Pugeo Fidei (1270)” (Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 16, p. 8.). “The pronunciation you mentioned [i.e., Yehovah] is a mistake. The Hebrew consonantal text is YHWH and no one really knows how that was pronounced in Old Testament times. At a later date (the latter half of the 2nd millennium CE) Masoretes added vowel signs to the consonantal text. Whenever the Tetragrammaton was written, they added the vowel signs of the word “Adonay,” which means “My Lord” – there was a taboo on pronouncing the Divine name and one was supposed to read the word “Adonay – my Lord.” Much later some started reading the vowel signs together with YHWH and came up with the nonsensical word Jehovah” (email correspondence between Professor Fassberg and Pastor Randy Folliard). Note: Professor Fassberg, Ph.D., is one of the leading professors at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem within its Hebrew language department. In addition to the fact that scholarship nearly universally confirms that the Masoretes added the vowel points from Adonai to the Tetragrammaton, another issue with Yehovah is that there are other variants based on the vowel pointing within the Masoretic manuscripts. For example, the Leningrad Codex contains at least six different spellings for the divine name. Similar evidence can also be found within the Aleppo and other codices. The fact that we find different pronunciations within the Masoretic manuscripts confirms that they cannot be trusted. Another issue with Yehovah and this claim of a 1,000 manuscripts is that the pronunciation Yahweh is confirmed within Greek documents from church fathers and Gnostic writings 700 years before the Masoretic documents. One such example from the Gnostic library is The Secret Book of John. Within this codex, it mentions the name Yahweh and notes, “Eloim and Yawe, two names of God in the Hebrew scriptures…. Yahweh is the name of God (based on the Tetragrammaton, the ineffable four-letter name)” (Dr. Marvin Meyer, The Nag Hammadi Scriptures, p. 127). The Secret Book of John dates to the second century, as it was known to the church father Irenaeus. This was the same timeframe as Clement of Alexandria, who also confirmed the name. Even though Gnosticism was rightly deemed heretical by the early church, it is another witness to the pronunciation of Yahweh. The fact that these groups were at odds, but agreed on “Yahweh,” is significant and adds credence to this pronunciation. It verifies that “Yahweh” was widely recognized as early as the second century. Evidence for the short form “Yah” is also found in early Greek documents of the Septuagint, part of the Dead Sea collection, dating to 1 BCE. Another concern regarding this claim is the man making the claim. By his own admission, Nehemia Gordon rejects the Messiah. As found in 1 John 2:21-23: “I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Yahshua is the Messiah? He is antimessiah, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” Based on these facts, the number of manuscripts found with the vowel points of Yehovah is irrelevant. Scholarship confirms that Yehovah is a hybrid that arose through the vowel points of Adonai. Additionally, antiquity confirms the pronunciation Yahweh through Greek inscriptions dating back to the 2nd century CE, 700 years before any manuscript containing Yehovah. For additional information, read our online article: The Yehovah Deception.” This topic is a touchy one for some and can easily turn docmatic as I am sure we can see, YRM believes the true way to say Gods name is Yahweh and they can also take all the comments from sources that fit their argument. Same can be said of others. Let’s be glad that we can have a personal relationship with our creator and that he has given the faithful slave to help us reason on the matter. We can use whatever form is excepted in our language and we can look to the future to see how the name was pronounced. Also let us not get caught up on such details the point is God has a personal name and we should use it. i would love to know why scholars say Adonai was mixed with YHWH and why only one change was made. If any one knows please let us know, I will see if i find any thing on this. Agapé
  7. I have also seen the video clip but I am not convinced. Nehemia Gordon said they found over 1000 texts where it shows it YeHoVaH but if you think of it how could the same mistake happen over 1000 times? Me Gordon says that the scribes by accident left the couples in but how could that be? The scribes counted each written document to make sure that no accident had taken place yet now they made the same mistake over 1000 times. Something does not sound right. Insight on the scriptures says on page 7 vol. 2 under Jehovah- what is the proper pronunciation of God’s name? ”in the second half of the first millennium C.E., Jewish scholars introduced a system of points to represent the missing vowels in the consonantal Hebrew text. When it came to God’s name, instead of inserting the proper vowel signs for it, they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say ‘Adhonai’ (meaning “sovereign Lord”) or Elohim (meaning “God”). “ it mentions further that some vowel vowel points makes it read Yehwah, Yehwih and Yehovah or also Yehowah. Some then favor others also. so actually it does not matter how many manuscripts Mr Gordon finds that does not proof that it was Pronounced Yeho(v/w)ah. I have also heard that some say that the vowel points for Adonai or Elohim is not exactly the same as used to get to Yehovah. Encyclopaedia Judaica second edition volume 7 under God’s name- YHWH says: “ In the early Middle Ages, when the consonantal text of the Bible was supplied with vowel points to facilitate its correct traditional reading, the vowel points for Adonai with ONE VARIATION - a sheva with the initial yod of YHWH instead of the hataf-patch under the aleph of Adonai- were used for YHWH, thus PRODUCING the form YeHoWaH. When Christian scholars of Europe first began to study Hebrew, they did not understand what this really meant, and they introduced the HYBRID name “ Jehovah.” Wikipedia has a lot on this under Jehovah and shows pictures of it. There is a religious group in America under the sacred name movement called “ Yahweh’s Restoration Ministry” that has done a lecture about this exact topic (the video can be found of the one guy giving the talk, the talk is on YouTube - ) I know the Catholic Church on their radio program likes to say that Jehovah’s Witnesses have rid themselves of everything Catholic but yet they keep the mistake they made on God’s name. There is unfortunatly so so much info on this and it is controversial because each one takes one side and talked against the rest. The Organization has done good research on this and that’s why we keep using Jehovah in English because as they say it has been excepted for a long time, yet we can’t be docmatic and say it was Yehowah or Yahweh. We simply don’t know and if Jah wanted us to use the one and it really is of great importance he would never have let it gotten lost. Now I guess someone can say: yes but it was never lost as some say... well I will wait on Jah to reveal what is needed. ps. I have contacted Mr Gordon to notify him about YRM and the talk they did on the matter and will wait for a reply after he has a look at theit lecture. ( I believe they are talking about MR Gordon in their talk but don’t want to use his name, could they be scared that people will listen to his research?? Doug it. Will post his reply ,that is if he replies.

About BroJPM

  • Birthday 04/12/1993

Member's Public Information

  • Gender
    Brother
  • First Name
    Jean-Pierre
  • Relationship Status
    Married
  • Displayed Location
    South Africa
  • Publisher
    Yes
  • Baptized
    Yes

How I Found the Truth

  • How I found the Truth
    Attended a school that had Afrikaans pastors that came to preach by us (Dutch Reformed Church) I attended DRC when I was in primary school and met my great-grandmother that lived in Namibia. She studied with 3 different missionary couples and became a JW self. I wanted to meet her to ask her about her believes and remember that Gods name is Jehovah, paradise and that the trinity is a lie. I never could see Jesus as God while I went to DRC so left and attended Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa but felt like I learned nothing but singing. My friend took me to attend a Baptist Church but they stopped attending so I went to cell groups where groups studied on their own the Bible app art from organized religions. I stopped again attending, people where more going to get Sunday food that the woman made and when I got in High school my friend wanted to “save my soul” and got me attending Methodist but they only took me once and then they stopped going, I don’t know why? My one grandmother passed away and she spoke many times with the witnesses so a brother gave the talk but not at a hall. There he spoke about the state of the dead and it was completely the opposite I learned from churches so I just remember him going from scripture to scripture showing what God says and I immediately was the difference between church and Gods word. Started to study in 2011 and Baptised in 2012. Remember I had many debates with people online and with apostates but Jehovah still showed me this is the truth. Have learned speaking with bad association is not the best way. Left it in Jah’s hands.

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  • My Interests
    Bible study, hikes,nature, spending time with friends

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