Police inquiry over Jehovah's Witness magazine 'mentally diseased' article

[Brother_Bliss]

I also have been studying Greek for the past 6 years and own several Greek Bibles.

Nice! We have something in common.

But how have you missed the fact that "mentally diseased" is an appropriate (at the least) and likely spot on (at the most) rendering of that passage?

[spiritman]

I appreciate what Clifton is saying here on this point. All Bibles are good and obviously the NWT is the most accurate but it's hard to convey every Greek nuance every time.

I don't think anyone can really have a problem quoting it right out of the Bible can they? It's not like twisting it to say something it doesn't- that's different.

[Anastithika]

I also have been studying Greek for the past 6 years and own several Greek Bibles.

Nice! We have something in common.

But how have you missed the fact that "mentally diseased" is an appropriate (at the least) and likely spot on (at the most) rendering of that passage?

I don't think it's appropriate because there's no reference to the person's mind or mental state in the Greek text. The phrase in question "ἀλλὰ νοσῶν περὶ ζητήσεις καὶ λογομαχίας" literally means "but sick with questions and arguments". Just because a person tends to ask questions(possibly pointless) and argue doesn't make them "mentally diseased". I believe the Common English Bible conveys the meaning behind this verse more accurately.

Timothy 6:4 that person is conceited. They don’t understand anything but have a sick obsession with debates and arguments. This creates jealousy, conflict, verbal abuse, and evil suspicions. (CBE)

[trottigy]

I like the Common English Bible as it really shows where this sickness is:

1 Timothy 6:4 (Common English Bible)

"They don’t understand anything but have a sick obsession with debates and arguments."

Where is "understanding"? Yes, in the mind. Yes, the source of this sickness is in there minds - as if it is the mind that is sick or "diseased".

[Shawnster]

Interesting that the worldly theologian Ed Dingess uses a vary similar phrase on his website: (including link only as means of providing source for my statement)

http://www.biible.info/biible-share.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Freformedreasons.blogspot.com%2F2009%2F12%2Fare-we-there-yet-part-ii.html&title=Reformed+Reasons%3A+Are+We+There+Yet%3F+Part+II

Men will be conceited. The Greek word is TUPHOO and it means becloud, delude. The idea is that one will have a deluded understanding and estimation of their own self- importance or significance. It likely means mentally ill in 1 Tim. 6:4 which I think is kind of humerous in a way. Are we there yet?

Mentally ill and mentally diseased are pretty much the same.

[CMWYW]

I'm not "belly aching", I just pointed out the fact that the NWT was the only English Bible (that I know of) that translates 1 Timothy 6:4 with the phrase "mentally diseased". I don't feel a need to write anyone as I don't think this is a big deal, but based on the article it appears to be a big deal for some.

It just looks like Apostates trying to kick up a storm and make a big deal out of something the bible actually says. If you click on this link http://concordances.org/greek/3552.htm then you will see how close the actual greek word definition is to what the NWT translates "mentally diseased". It clearly from the news article is an Apostate/or group of Apostates that has tried to get the police involved. Apostates weep and gnash there teeth at what the bible says sometimes as the bible condemns them. A bit like some who disagree that disfellowshipping is a christian/biblical thing to do but are actually just upset that they were disfellowshipped.

The Bible and Jehovah are very clear when it comes to Apostates and if you have ever encountered one and seen there reasoning then you will realize that Jehovah was right! They clearly are spiritually sick and very infectious.

In my lifetime I have read 5 different English Bibles from Genesis to Revelation, ( KJV, NIV, ASV, ESV, NWT) and read a good portion of many others. I also have been studying Greek for the past 6 years and own several Greek Bibles. One thing I learned when comparing multiple English Bibles to Greek is that no translation is 100% accurate and they all get a few things wrong. This is not of any fault to the translators, Greek is one of those languages that can't be translated well into English because the two languages are so different.

You are right the NWT does not claim to be perfect. It is much more dependable than any other Bible translation though. The only translated words that I cannot completely defend are some of the insertions of Jehovah in the Greek scriptures. Although most of the times the translators did this they had evidence and backing from the Hebrew scriptures.

A tiny bit off topic Have you ever looked into and studied Matthew 5:3. The NWT has probably the most accurate rendering of this scripture and no other translations seem to bring out the true meaning into English. Also I wander why if the translators can help bring out the meaning in Matthew 5:3 why they didn't do a similar clear translation of Luke 24:26 and render "hate" as "Love Less". Just some interesting research I have done while studying Greek in my own limited way.

Anyway hope you don't get too much of a headache over things that Apostates are stirring up in the press as everything they teach is refutable.

[rocket]

I would have to agree with the Definition given by Strong's Concordance: I am diseased, hence of mental or spiritual disease.

[sunshine]

I also have been studying Greek for the past 6 years and own several Greek Bibles.

Nice! We have something in common.

But how have you missed the fact that "mentally diseased" is an appropriate (at the least) and likely spot on (at the most) rendering of that passage?

I don't think it's appropriate because there's no reference to the person's mind or mental state in the Greek text. The phrase in question "ἀλλὰ νοσῶν περὶ ζητήσεις καὶ λογομαχίας" literally means "but sick with questions and arguments". Just because a person tends to ask questions(possibly pointless) and argue doesn't make them "mentally diseased". I believe the Common English Bible conveys the meaning behind this verse more accurately.

Timothy 6:4 that person is conceited. They don’t understand anything but have a sick obsession with debates and arguments. This creates jealousy, conflict, verbal abuse, and evil suspicions. (CBE)

Fair enough, now if you would like to present a linguistic argument (rational based on the greek language) with references to support your view I will be happy to read it.

[Brother_Bliss]

I don't think it's appropriate because there's no reference to the person's mind or mental state in the Greek text.

What?! The whole context is addressing a the person's mentality. The word itself can refer to one's mental state.

This was already addressed in the other thread in the Interchange, which I had already noted earlier in this topic.

For the sake of repetition, I wrote...

For review, it was also shown why the context itself is speaking about a person's mental state here...

http://www.jwtalk.net/forum/read.php?10,50643,50855#msg-50855

And that the original Greek word actually can refer to an "ailment of the mind" here...

http://www.jwtalk.net/forum/read.php?10,50643,50862#msg-50862

And even how half of the other translations you referenced, while not rendered "mentally diseased", use words that actually have to do with one's mental state. (such as "doting" ).

The phrase in question "ἀλλὰ νοσῶν περὶ ζητήσεις καὶ λογομαχίας" literally means "but sick with questions and arguments". Just because a person tends to ask questions(possibly pointless) and argue doesn't make them "mentally diseased".

I disagree...

ἀλλὰ - but

νοσῶν - sick (metaphorically "mentally", "mental obsession" )

περὶ - about, concerning

ζητήσεις - questions

καὶ - and

λογομαχίας - word quarreling

I would translate this "but sick in the head because of questionings and disputes over words" which would be in harmony with the context preceding it, regarding doctrine, teaching, pride, and not understanding anything.

The primary definition of νοσῶν is sick, and lexicons note that it can metaphorically refer to one's mental state. Since the context is not referring to a physical sickness, a mental sickness is the only alternative.

I believe the Common English Bible conveys the meaning behind this verse more accurately.

Timothy 6:4 that person is conceited. They don’t understand anything but have a sick obsession with debates and arguments. This creates jealousy, conflict, verbal abuse, and evil suspicions. (CBE)

conceited = mental state.

not understanding anything = mental state

sick obsession = mental state

jealousy = mental state

suspicions = mental state

With all due respect, if you have been studying Koine Greek for over 6 years and own all these Greek bibles and dictionaries, and cannot see any of this or even so much as acknowledge the New World Translation's rendering of 1 Timothy 6:4 as a possible rendering of the Greek text (regardless of whether you think it's probable), then your 6 years of study have no benefited you much, and you might be a little νοσῶν yourself.

[philamarie]

I must say I don't agree with Clifton, but don't agree with Bob either.

@ Clifton: I think as the July 15 Study WT brought out on page 16 paragraph 8 says, "let us be determined to remain loyal to Jehovah and to the organization that has a long record of quenching our thirst". Sometimes I think people get to caught up in deep study and leaning upon their own understanding. Are we now not going to have faith in the information provided by the faithful and discreet slave? Where did you get all the basic truths from?

@ Bob I think you where a little harsh in your last posting. I keep thinking of what the organization is always saying to us. Our conversations with each other should be for building up. The world puts us down enough. We need to be a refreshment to each other. Does such a small couple of words, "mental sickness", have to be such a controversial thing between brothers.

@ both of you. I am sorry if I offend but it was breaking my heart to see to brothers at such odds with each other. It almost seemed heated to me.

[Brother_Bliss]

@ both of you. I am sorry if I offend but it was breaking my heart to see to brothers at such odds with each other. It almost seemed heated to me.

No offense taken, dear sister. Your counsel is much appreciated. I sent you a PM ;)

[Willow]

.

If any ex-members take offense then they are admitting they are in fact apostates committed to opposing the organization instead of moving on with their lives like they would if they were not mentally diseased.

Apostates =

I thought that was a good point. Also, I got the impression from the article that the apostates didn't like the new pair of shoes the Faithful Slave just perfectly fit them into - that is, "mentally diseased". >< Ha! It felt so good to see that in print and to see that it got a reaction from them.

(I probably shouldn't feel that way but I saw it as a huge victory for Jehovah's sovereignty. "Amen! Come Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:20 OH YEAH!!) And I can't believe they actually had the gall to say THEY were being bullied! How ridiculous. That is all they do is bully because they know we won't bother responding to their senseless blather and wah wah whining.

P.S.

Just for the record, none of the friends I know who suffer from mental illnesses were offended by the use of the phrase, "mentally diseased".

[sianrose]

what is so ironic about the comments on the other newspaper article...is they are feigning hurt over the words the Bible says...and calling Jehovah's Witnesses in a public newspaper all kinds of names ....and that seems perfectly acceptable....

they could not do it about an other religion...

15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. John 17:15;16

comes to mind...

[Anastithika]

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[Dages]

This topic is a good illustration of the point... being "obsessed about questions and word quarreling".

Nothing good comes out of it

[sianrose]

I thought that was a good point. Also, I got the impression from the article that the apostates didn't like the new pair of shoes the Faithful Slave just perfectly fit them into - that is, "mentally diseased". Ha! It felt so good to see that in print and to see that it got a reaction from them.

(I probably shouldn't feel that way but I saw it as a huge victory for Jehovah's sovereignty. "Amen! Come Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:20 OH YEAH!!) And I can't believe they actually had the gall to say THEY were being bullied! How ridiculous. That is all they do is bully because they know we won't bother responding to their senseless blather and wah wah whining.

agreed on all points...the "news item" has gone further afield now... into more on-line publications...they are doing a brilliant job in the comments...of showing how "mentally diseased" they are...going round in circles...and name calling us to the hilt...anybody looking for the truth...will see through these people immediately...there is no need for us to defend our selves...they are doing the job for us....

[Dages]

This make me think about the King Saul... even if it is a little bit different.

I sinned and failed... Jehovah told him David was the chosen one, now...

instead of trying to change... he tried to kill David.

[Poly Ester]

I thought that was a good point. Also, I got the impression from the article that the apostates didn't like the new pair of shoes the Faithful Slave just perfectly fit them into - that is, "mentally diseased". Ha! It felt so good to see that in print and to see that it got a reaction from them.

(I probably shouldn't feel that way but I saw it as a huge victory for Jehovah's sovereignty. "Amen! Come Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:20 OH YEAH!!) And I can't believe they actually had the gall to say THEY were being bullied! How ridiculous. That is all they do is bully because they know we won't bother responding to their senseless blather and wah wah whining.

agreed on all points...the "news item" has gone further afield now... into more on-line publications...they are doing a brilliant job in the comments...of showing how "mentally diseased" they are...going round in circles...and name calling us to the hilt...anybody looking for the truth...will see through these people immediately...there is no need for us to defend our selves...they are doing the job for us....

I choose to not even look in that direction.... I can imagine what they are saying, and I know that forewarned is forearmed... but to be honest I feel I'm safer to leave them and their comments well alone, to not go anywhere near the reports or articles online.

The next step is it will be on the TV... they are jumping up in arms because they are small people with small minds and have nothing better to do... lets be honest, it is reasonable to presume that as apostates (once having been witnesses) they know it is the truth and they can see the end coming... this is why they are so angry and incensed...they are twisting words as we know they will do

[sianrose]

.

lets be honest, it is reasonable to presume that as apostates (once having been witnesses) they know it is the truth and they can see the end coming... this is why they are so angry and incensed...they are twisting words as we know they will do Bring It On Now Smiley

good point annie...it is like the start of their ganging up for the final battle...Satan is very angry ....and mentally diseased...

[Brother_Bliss]

I choose to not even look in that direction.... I can imagine what they are saying, and I know that forewarned is forearmed... but to be honest I feel I'm safer to leave them and their comments well alone, to not go anywhere near the reports or articles online.

I did go over and read the Independent article - what a piece of journalistic trash. The author of the article was obviously biased as it completely misrepresents the contents of the study article.

I took a quick glance at the comment section. It's sad that brothers and sisters are trying to argue with these people. Granted, the Independent isn't technically an apostate blog, but these brothers and sisters have missed the point of the study article altogether.

[Dages]

If every newspapers and comments would be nice and positive... there would be a problem, right ?

We cannot be accepted in Satan's world.

The end is near, hold fast !

[PGgenius]

Police inquiry over Jehovah's Witness magazine 'mentally diseased' article

An official magazine for Jehovah's Witnesses that described those who leave the church as "mentally diseased" is at the centre of a police inquiry, it has emerged.

Detectives are investigating whether the article, published in July’s edition of The Watchtower, is in breach of Britain’s religious hatred laws.

The article, published in the magazine which is distributed by Jehovah's Witnesses across the globe, reportedly warned followers to avoid "false teachers" which it condemned as being "mentally diseased".

"Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease," part of the article stated.

"You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are 'mentally diseased', and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings."

A group of former Witnesses, based in Portsmouth, have made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article. Police have launched an investigation.

They are considering whether to complain to the Charity Commission. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Britain, which prints church doctrine in Britain, is a registered charity.

The church is known for handing down harsh punishments to followers who criticise doctrines or raise questions about the faith.

Angus Robertson, a former Witness "elder" from an undisclosed town in Hampshire, who was present at the meeting with police, told The Independent:

"The way scripture is being used to bully people must be challenged.

“If a religion was preaching that blacks or gays were mentally diseased there would understandable outrage."

But Rick Fenton, a church spokesman, defended the passages, saying ostracisation was "a personal matter for each individual to decide for himself".

"Any one of Jehovah's Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions," he said. "If a person changes their mind about Bible-based teachings they once held dear, we recognise their right to leave."

A Hampshire police spokesman was unavailable for comment.

Article Source: The Telegraph

Wt teel me and you so:

"We also refuse to read their litera-

ture, watch TV programs that fea-

ture them"

It is heard here surely fact also that we do not read stories which tell of them

So we neither know nothing about the matter because we have read nothing, heard nothing

[sianrose]

if it is a mainstream newspaper...unless you read it how do you know what it says?...it could of been a positive article...if someone does not want to read newspapers that is a personal decision...

[PGgenius]

if it is a mainstream newspaper...unless you read it how do you know what it says?...it could of been a positive article...if someone does not want to read newspapers that is a personal decision...

YaYa dear Sianrose! But what the slave is a mind? Perhaps it will be better to stop the reading when one hears the word apostate or Ex jw's? So bible say's: "but be babes as to badness" 1 Corinthias 14:20 So We do not want to know anything about the apostates?

[Brother_Bliss]

if it is a mainstream newspaper...unless you read it how do you know what it says?...it could of been a positive article...if someone does not want to read newspapers that is a personal decision...

YaYa dear Sianrose! But what the slave is a mind? Perhaps it will be better to stop the reading when one hears the word apostate or Ex jw's? So bible say's: "but be babes as to badness" 1 Corinthias 14:20 So We do not want to know anything about the apostates?

Excellent point! After all, at what point would we turn away from it if it were on television, like the picture in that study article demonstrated.