DISCUSS COURT CASE HERE JW.org - Jehovah’s Witnesses Mobilize Global Response to Threat of Ban in Russia

[bagwell1987]

2 hours ago, Tbs77 said:

19 December 2017
RUSSIA: PROPERTY SELL-OFFS, ALTERNATIVE SERVICE DENIALS FOLLOW JEHOVAH'S WITNESS BAN
http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2344

Following the Supreme Court ban on all Jehovah's Witness activity - in
force since July - Regional Justice Ministry branches are preparing to sell
off their confiscated property. Military call-up offices have denied
several army conscripts the option of alternative civilian service.
Jehovah's Witnesses experience increased law enforcement harassment, plus
vandalism and violence.

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I truly wonder what hindsight will reveal

[skipdaflip]

I've read the court case against the bible. But the translation is terrible. Can anyone tell me the highlines? As far as I understand they keep the decision unchanged which means that it stays forbidden and marked as extremist?

 

If that's true, then it's all in the line of expectation. But heartbreaking for our brothers and sisters. They're poking Jehovah in his eye. 

Years ago we had to buy bibles somewhere on the market before the GB started to translate it themselves. It's a shame Jehovah's name isn't in there. But it won't stop our brothers and sisters to use a bible, even if they temporary have to use another one.

 

It won't take long anymore, and Jehovah will do rustige to His name.

[Omoyeme]

Quote

21:51    The court is removed to the advisory room to make a decision.
21:55    The court reads the decision: to leave the Vyborg court's decision unchanged, the appellate complaint is not satisfied.

 

This case was decided in 4 minutes flat?...that must be a new world's record!

 

No matter, their judgment, by divine decree, may be just as swift! 

[ChocoBro]

There are some instances in history where judicial decisions do not follow a certain judicial "logic", but are motivated mainly by political agenda.  This is one of those cases.

[Victoria]

I wonder what will be the next step. They banned JWs, seized Bethel and other property, banned NWT Bible. What next? Burning people? I feel like living in the Middle Ages.

[ChocoBro]

39 minutes ago, Victoria said:

I wonder what will be the next step. They banned JWs, seized Bethel and other property, banned NWT Bible. What next? Burning people? I feel like living in the Middle Ages.

 

No, burning? Not probable. But incarceration is. And ridicule. But these are things Jesus warned us would happen to us

 

Quote

11 “Happy are you when people reproach you+ and persecute you+ and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake.+ 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed,+ since your reward+ is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you.+

 

[Victoria]

If they say the Bible is not the Bible and ban it, so they can say JWs are not people and burn them. Of course I hope that won't happen but now I am sure everything is possible in Russia. " Increasing of lawlessness".

[peper-eliot]

1 hour ago, Victoria said:

If they say the Bible is not the Bible and ban it, so they can say JWs are not people

 

[Sheep]

9 hours ago, Victoria said:

I wonder what will be the next step. They banned JWs, seized Bethel and other property, banned NWT Bible. What next? Burning people? I feel like living in the Middle Ages.

 

Victoria, are you still living in Russia? Some time back, I remember you and your husband were looking for another place to move to.

 

Since this is a publicly visible forum, you may answer via PM if you wish.

[Sheep]

Hhmmm. I'm not sure when this showed up in our news alerts. It says "Today" in the opening sentence. But the court case was Wednesday.

[sunshine]

On 21/12/2017 at 1:55 AM, Victoria said:

I wonder what will be the next step. They banned JWs, seized Bethel and other property, banned NWT Bible. What next? Burning people? I feel like living in the Middle Ages.

 

The thing is they initially just banned the Watchtower society and listed literature.  They siezed any property owned by what they saw as the WT branche (congregations).  The brothers were not banned from meeting together so they could go on doing so, which is why the next day they all went to rented kingdom halls as usual (and probably k/hs they owned).  Of course the plan is to silence the witnesses and put a complete end to our religion in Russia so more has to be in the wings. They know as long as JWs can meet together, speak about their beliefs to other people and study the bible they will continue to increase but they can't out and out declare it illegal to pray or sing religious songs or speak about God becaus that would have to be applied to other religions (including the Russian Orthodox church).  At the moment it seems they want to make it impossible to read any of our literature and hope that  public opinion and persecution will destroy the brotherhood and at the very least stop people from joining without having to write a law that say "talking about JEHOVAH is illegal".  By declaring the bible with the Divine Name in it extreme literature they have come as close as posssible as doing this however.

 

The Russian authorities have set themselves up a in direct opposition to Jehovah God, that's never a good idea.

[Victoria]

7 hours ago, sunshine said:

 

The thing is they initially just banned the Watchtower society and listed literature.  They siezed any property owned by what they saw as the WT branche (congregations).  The brothers were not banned from meeting together so they could go on doing so, which is why the next day they all went to rented kingdom halls as usual (and probably k/hs they owned).  Of course the plan is to silence the witnesses and put a complete end to our religion in Russia so more has to be in the wings. They know as long as JWs can meet together, speak about their beliefs to other people and study the bible they will continue to increase but they can't out and out declare it illegal to pray or sing religious songs or speak about God becaus that would have to be applied to other religions (including the Russian Orthodox church).  At the moment it seems they want to make it impossible to read any of our literature and hope that  public opinion and persecution will destroy the brotherhood and at the very least stop people from joining without having to write a law that say "talking about JEHOVAH is illegal".  By declaring the bible with the Divine Name in it extreme literature they have come as close as posssible as doing this however.

 

The Russian authorities have set themselves up a in direct opposition to Jehovah God, that's never a good idea.

Sorry, maybe I did not understand you well, but I want to tell that meeting together and preaching are illegal. Brother Dennis is in prison because he was at the hall. He can go to jail for 10 years. The same thing can happen to any JW in Russia anytime.

[Vinnie]

Oh Jehovah, 

        Bless and watch over our friends, our dear faithful brothers and sisters in Russia for doing your will under such extremism.  Please Jehovah, give them the patience and fortitude to continue to put up with the unreasonableness of the authorities where they live.  May their zeal and steadfastness prove to be a strengthening aid for the rest of us and if and when the same situation comes upon us, may be as resilient as them. May the name of our God Jehovah continue to be praised in Russia. 

 

 

 

[sunshine]

58 minutes ago, Victoria said:

Sorry, maybe I did not understand you well, but I want to tell that meeting together and preaching are illegal. Brother Dennis is in prison because he was at the hall. He can go to jail for 10 years. The same thing can happen to any JW in Russia anytime.

 

Yes that is absolutely true, I'm not saying otherwise, but my understanding is that our dear Brother was charged with being a  "representative" of the Watchtower Society (which he is not).  And sure  the same accusation  can and no doubt will be made against any of the brothers and sisters in Russia, that is the whole point.  This way they can arrest any Witness with the same (false) charge.    We are not part of the Watchtower Society, we are Jehovah's Witnesses (someone baptized and dedicated to Jehovah), there are no laws (yet) against being dipped in water and after that going about saying you love Jehovah.   In the  the minds of the public (which is where the persecution is coming from) and even evidently some Police municipalities, its the same thing, but legally it is not.  The "Watchtower Society" is a legal entity, a corporation (a company) and the ban is against that society and anything it owns (or produces).  The congregations were deemed "branches" of the Corporation (which they are not) so the authorities now have the right to grab any kingdom halls owned by the Witnesses.  This has opened to the wholesale persecution  the witnesses but it is not illegal for Jehovah's Witnesses to meet or even preach.  Now I'm not saying the brothers will not act wisely (if they deem it too dangerous to meet or preach openly even if technically it is not illegal they will  I'm confident  take the appropriate measures to protect the brothers) but even Stalin would have seen the difficulty in writing a law that renders it illegal to love a God who is called "Jehovah" or for those that do to meet together.  

 

It is clearly time for our Russian brothers to be "cautious as serpants" and Jehovah will give them the courage to face these injustices, I'm sure there is more to come but the situation makes me think of Jehovah's Words to Jeremiah 1

 

"But you should prepare for action, [...]. Do not be terrified of them, So that I do not terrify you before them. 18 For today I have made you a fortified city,  An iron pillar, and copper walls against all the land,  [...] 19 And they will certainly fight against you, But they will not prevail against you, For ‘I am with you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to save you.’”

Edited December 23, 2017 by sunshine

[Loopy]

Disgusting! Our poor brothers. 

 

This is always makes me think of King Sennacherib taunting Jehovah & his people.

 

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/russia/authorities-seize-assembly-hall-of-jehovahs-witnesses/

 

won’t be long now.   

[George]

They just seizure our properties however Jehovah will soon completely destroy their churches, that is matter of fact.

[retroHelen]

There's more (in monetary worth)privately owned Russian property in the UK than in Russia. I believe this is also the case in the USA.  $150bn is reported to  leave that country every year. This is because investigative reporters report that if you are wealthy and fall out of favour, they claim that you risk arrest and jail for various charges - usually fraud - and have all your assets seized. Fraud charges are easy to put upon someone in a society that won't move or move very slowly unless you 'grease palms'.

 

This is why the Russian authority is reported in Europe as sometimes acting as a 'Kleptocracy' when it feels the need to. It does not seem to do this all the time or in a way that can be easily challenged in courts or more people inside and outside Russia might feel brave enough to rise up. Economics have seemed to have improved under Putin, but there are times when cases do come to light that have commentators concerned about how the funds are obtained for some large projects/International events there.

 

We know that the Russian authorities have never liked our faith, but  could find no fraud  with our organisation, so instead they put about fake news that we are extremist as an excuse to seize all our property. The Country is reported to be - according to financial newspapers, despite public statements,  more cash strapped for supporting infrastructure, (except the military) due to poor/questionable management than they like the West to realise. Our property - redistributed - would calm those who have been waiting for new buildings for years - Social Services were one such organisation who were pressuring and petitioning for our 'to be seized' buildings for their use according to one Russian Newspaper quoted on this site a few months ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin's_Kleptocracy

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a56666/russia-putin-oligarchs/

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by retroHelen

[Tbs77]

Sunday I thought about the brothers in Russia when reading this:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017607

10. What assurance can God’s people today draw from Zechariah’s prophecy about the chariots and their riders?

10 As in Zechariah’s day, Jehovah of armies still uses his angels to protect and strengthen his people. (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:7, 14) Ever since spiritual Israel was released from symbolic captivity to Babylon the Great in 1919, the expansion of true worship has been unstoppable despite relentless opposition. (Rev. 18:4) Because we have angelic protection, we need not fear that Jehovah’s organization might go through another time of spiritual oppression. (Ps. 34:7) Instead, we can be sure that God’s servants worldwide will continue to flourish spiritually. As we reflect on Zechariah’s vision, we do not doubt that we are safe in the shadow of the two mountains.

14. What work does Jesus take on as King and High Priest?

14 Acting as both King and High Priest, Jesus is the leader of Jehovah’s heavenly army. As such, he works diligently so that God’s people as a whole may dwell in security despite living in the midst of this hostile world. (Jer. 23:5, 6) In the near future, Christ will take the lead in conquering the nations in support of God’s sovereignty and in defending Jehovah’s people. (Rev. 17:12-14; 19:11,14, 15) Before executing judgment, however, Sprout has a great work to accomplish.

This injustice will be over very soon!

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[TrueTomHarley]

It appears that the St. Petersburg branch facility confiscated by the government from Jehovah's Witnesses will be awarded to a medical research group, reports Vademec.ru. It is worth $15 million dollars.

 

It is not the same, but when the Philistines made off with the ark, they ended up with hemorrhoids. No, it is not likely to happen. A branch building is not the ark. But one can always dream.

 

The one conceivably valid reason for banning the New World Translation in Russia is that it employs the word "piles" at 1 Samuel 5:6 - a euphemism. What in the world are piles? It is in no other translation that I can see. Nor does the NWT avoid unpleasantries elsewhere. I can't figure it out.

 

The American Standard Version says God smote them with "tumors." The King James Version says "emerods." Darby says "hemorrhoids."

 

The old Wycliffe Bible removes all doubt: "Forsooth the hand of the Lord was made grievous upon [the] men of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and he smote Ashdod and the coasts thereof in the privier part of [the] buttocks/in the more privy part of their tail ends."

 

Should they stock Preparation H in the new medical building? And will the move come back to bite Russia? It certainly bites us. It has been observed that it provides a powerful caution to anyone wanting to invest there. Aggravate the government and they will take your property.

Edited December 26, 2017 by TrueTomHarley

[ChocoBro]

11 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The one conceivably valid reason for banning the New World Translation in Russia is that it employs the word "piles" at 1 Samuel 5:6 - a euphemism. What in the world are piles? It is in no other translation that I can see. Nor does the NWT avoid unpleasantries elsewhere. I can't figure it out.

 

 

I don't get what you mean. "Piles" is the common tongue word for "hemorrhoids"

 

 

[EccentricM]

14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The one conceivably valid reason for banning the New World Translation in Russia is that it employs the word "piles" at 1 Samuel 5:6 - a euphemism. What in the world are piles? It is in no other translation that I can see. Nor does the NWT avoid unpleasantries elsewhere. I can't figure it out.

 

The American Standard Version says God smote them with "tumors." The King James Version says "emerods." Darby says "hemorrhoids."

 

https://www.webmd.boots.com/digestive-disorders/piles-haemorrhoids

 

Quote

Haemorrhoids, commonly known as piles

 

Not a mistranslation, just a word choice which more commonly understood in every day terms. 

[Tortuga]

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003487?q=golden+piles&p=par

 

Lots of information in the Insight. Perhaps you should expand your research material...

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

I don't get what you mean. "Piles" is the common tongue word for "hemorrhoids"

 

Oh.

2 hours ago, EccentricM said:

Not a mistranslation, just a word choice which more commonly understood in every day terms.

 

I didn't know that.

 

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

Perhaps you should expand your research

 

You would think.

 

It is true, though, that the NWT is virtually alone in using it. I say "virtually" because someone here will undoubtedly come up with another. Have at it!

Edited December 26, 2017 by TrueTomHarley

[sunshine]

The buildings do not belong to us, or the Watchtower society, they were dedicated to Jehovah, so in reality they belong to him.  I find great comfort in that because I know nobody can take anything from Jehovah unless he allows it.  I understand the sacrifices our Russian brothers and sisters made to build them and the love they poured into those buildings but those treasures were made in heaven as they worked hard to build a place for his name  and further kingdom interests; treeasures in heaven cannot be confiscated.  Our spiritual paradise cannot be threatened and is not dependent on anything material, the russian authorities will find that out in due time.

 

When the Gog attacks the world will grab greedily at everything we have, we don't know how much Jehovah will let them actually take before he reminds the world that this planet and everything in it belongs to him.

[nanceebgd46]

 

How long Jehovah......how long?!