Bible-Based Child Protection Packet Released

[ChocoBro]

18 minutes ago, Hope said:

If I had evidence of a child being molested, I would absolutely notify the authorities - no matter who it was and whether they were a member of a congregation or not.

  

Honest question here -- was there really a time when Witnesses would NOT report a molester to the police?? 

So just a question here. You know a young girl who likes you a lot and trusts you. One day, under tears, she confides to you that she was raped by somebody you also know that person.

 

Angry and disgusted and in a fervour of justice, you tell the young girl she MUST notify the authorities. She tells you she does not want that, for fear of what would happen to her, or because she is scared of confronting the police and being accused of being a liar. All of your attempts to convince her of the necessity of speaking out are of no avail, in fact, she mentions that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to tell you.

 

Now what?

Edited May 10, 2018 by ChocoBro

[Bob]

20 minutes ago, Hope said:

If I had evidence of a child being molested, I would absolutely notify the authorities - no matter who it was and whether they were a member of a congregation or not.

I do agree with you here in principle, but many times, it is not that simple.

 

Quote

 

Honest question here -- was there really a time when Witnesses would NOT report a molester to the police??

Yes, though I would not say as a whole Witnesses would not report. I don't personally know of any, but I am sure there have been a time where some individuals did not report. Even the law recognizes that abuse is under reported, for many reasons.

 

 

Quote

Was that ever advised against by the elders?  I can't imagine not reporting such a thing or even seeking permission from anyone to do so.

As a group, no, elders do not and cannot advise against reporting. Have there been individual elders, for one reason or another, who advised against reporting? I do not doubt there have been.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Bob

[Sequoia]

Well, on the websites for Social and Health Services especially on the sections for Child Protective Services or whatever the Child Welfare Agency is called in that State or area.  They encourage everyone to report child abuse to the authorities if they suspect that a child is being abused or has been abused or neglected and they say that people should.  However as everyone knows, they also state that only certain people are legally required to and they have information for such people.

[Hope]

2 minutes ago, ChocoBro said:

So just a question here. You know a young girl who likes you a lot and trusts you. One day, under tears, she confides to you that she was raped by somebody you also know that person.

 

Angry and disgusted and in a fervour of justice, you tell the young girl she MUST notify the authorities. She tells you she does not want that, for fear of what would happen to her, or because she is scared of confronting the police and being accused of being a liar. All of your attempts to convince her of the necessity of speaking out are of no avail, in fact, she mentions that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to tell you.

 

Now what?

 

It depends on how young the girl is.  I would first advise her - strongly - to tell her parents.  If she is a minor, it's their responsibility to report to the authorities.  Or not, their choice, right?  I would also mention it to a trusted elder.. there may be ramifications to her being raped (pregnancy, disease - not to mention the spiritual injury) and she will need help.

 

If she's not a minor, I'd ask how she felt if someone told her this... would she want the beast to continue to get away with it, maybe hurt someone else?  Regardless, if I came into the knowledge that there was a sexual predator in a congregation, I'd absolutely let the brothers know about it and go with whatever advice they gave me.  She may regret she told me, but I'd hope she'd regret letting a criminal continue unscathed even more.    

 

 

[Sequoia]

51 minutes ago, Hope said:

If I had evidence of a child being molested, I would absolutely notify the authorities - no matter who it was and whether they were a member of a congregation or not.

 

Honest question here -- was there really a time when Witnesses would NOT report a molester to the police??  Was that ever advised against by the elders?  I can't imagine not reporting such a thing or even seeking permission from anyone to do so.

 

Then... for people to get mad because the elders didn't report to the police???  Doesn't make sense to me.

 

I just want to bring out again that I heard about a case dating back to at least 1960 where responsible brothers reported the matter to the authorities and turned everything over to the courts.  So it certainly wasn't prohibited by the brothers at the Branch Office and Head Quarters. 

 

I also know elders who reported child abuse to Services to Children and Families in Oregon which is what Child Services was calling themselves in Oregon at the time.  They also called Child Protective Services in Washington State over the same case.  Well, our Legal Department in New York instructed them to report it.  At that time and later on our organization was accused of covering up child abuse and of not reporting it even when legally required to.  They were accused of doing this not only prior to 2000, but after as well.  

 

I have seen claims that they did not make us aware in any way at all, that we have the right to report serious crimes to the authorities until recently and that what they actually did say on the subject in the God's Love Book published in 2008. Which was studied in the Congregation in the Congregation Bible Study; https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008089?q=serious+crime&p=par Well some say that information was not made available until after 2010 and only to the elders not to the rest of us. 

 

Also that information was made available at least as far as reporting child abuse was concerned. As friends of mine and myself saw it prior to 2010, on one of our previous official websites www.jw-media.org  and in a Watchtower article in 2005;  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005563#h=13:0-13:263

 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by JW2017

[Sequoia]

The elders in this case from 2013 came forward with information that helped the authorities.

 

https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2013/07/31/sun-valley-church-usher-charged-with-sexually-abusing-four-boys/

[Old]

2 hours ago, Hope said:

If I had evidence of a child being molested, I would absolutely notify the authorities - no matter who it was and whether they were a member of a congregation or not.

 

Honest question here -- was there really a time when Witnesses would NOT report a molester to the police??  Was that ever advised against by the elders?  I can't imagine not reporting such a thing or even seeking permission from anyone to do so.

 

Then... for people to get mad because the elders didn't report to the police???  Doesn't make sense to me.

 

There were some congregation servants and later elders that misinterpreted Paul'swords about taking our brother to court. It was rare but caused a lot of damage. This was before we had any specific instructions on dealing with child-abusers, these brothers were shooting from their hip. They miss-advised parents, maybe the parents were not directly told they couldn't report the crime, but the damage was done by inference. We are taught to follow the direction of the elders, so if an elder was to say something like "I don't think that would be a good idea [to go to the police] but it is up to you." In the past that could and did intimidate some parents.

I was never involved with this mindset of taking a brother to court in a child abuse case but did encounter it when several elders told a brother and close friend caught up as petitioner in a bankruptcy of a firm he did business with, that he could not press his claim because that would be "Taking his brother to court." He got stung for tens of thousands of dollars and the two brothers that had contracted with him walked away with smiles on their faces.

I have heard the same happening in child abuse cases prior to our firm stand on the issue, likely some of the ones that have made the news. Some elders were a little slow to figure out the difference between reporting a crime and "taking your brother to court." All elders are now knowledgeable on the topic, the same mistakes are not likely to be made in the future. Parents will be advised of their legal rights when the abuse first comes to light. There right to report will be emphasized, not minimized.

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Old

[carlos]

On 5/10/2018 at 9:26 PM, Hope said:

If I had evidence of a child being molested, I would absolutely notify the authorities - no matter who it was and whether they were a member of a congregation or not.

Hope, I can identify myself with your feelings but in real life things are often not that black or white.  We tend to think of a child abuser as a creepy old man in a raincoat lurking in the restrooms, but that image is usually far from reality. In most cases child abusers are family members: a brother, a father, a grandfather, an uncle. It's not always easy to determine abuse either.

 

Imagine this situation: Your close friend confides you that some days ago they surprised their 12 year old son apparently touching his 8 year old sister in an inappropriate way. When they spoke about it, he denied everything and said they were only playing. Actually the parents are not even sure of what they saw. So in their family worship that week they talked about the subject and they think their son learned the lesson. Anyway they will keep an eye on him.

 

Of course, your friend doesn't even want to hear about reporting to the police. She's convinced that it's a family problem that has already been dealt with. Now according to your words above you should immediately notify the police of what she told you, no matter if she agrees or not. In fact, if you live in one of those states where reporting is mandatory for everyone you are under legal obligation of going to the police. Of course that will mean a lot of trouble with your friend and probably your friendship and all her confidence in you will be lost forever.

 

That's why many disagree with mandatory reporting. It doesn't respect the wishes of the victims.

 

On 5/10/2018 at 9:26 PM, Hope said:

Honest question here -- was there really a time when Witnesses would NOT report a molester to the police??  Was that ever advised against by the elders?  I can't imagine not reporting such a thing or even seeking permission from anyone to do so.

No, as an organization we have always understood that crimes (including rape and child abuse) should be reported to the authorities. We have always abhorred any kind of immorality, and much more anything done against children. Of course, fifty or sixty years ago child abuse was a taboo subject that was never mentioned, so it's not a surprise that some cases may not have been handled it in the best way.

 

The elders have never had instructions against reporting child abuse, much the opposite. But in a few cases some elders, mistaking the scriptural statement that one should not take a fellow Christian to court, advised not to report it. When they did so they were disregarding the instructions and following their own opinion.

[Old]

13 minutes ago, carlos said:

Hope, I can identify myself with your feelings but in real life things are often not that black or white.  We tend to think of a child abuser as a creepy old man in a raincoat lurking in the restrooms, but that image is usually far from reality. In most cases child abusers are family members: a brother, a father, a grandfather, an uncle. It's not always easy to determine abuse either.

 

Imagine this situation: Your close friend confides you that some days ago they surprised their 14 year old son apparently touching her 8 year old sister in an inappropriate way. When they spoke about it, he denied everything and said they were only playing. Actually the parents are not even sure of what they saw. So in their family worship that week they talked about the subject and they think their son learned the lesson. Anyway they will keep an eye on him.

 

Of course, your friend doesn't even want to hear about reporting to the police. She's convinced that it's a family problem that has already been dealt with. Now according to your words above you should immediately notify the police of what she told you, no matter if she agrees or not. In fact, if you live in one of those states where reporting is mandatory for everyone you under legal obligation of going to the police. Of course that will mean a lot of trouble with your friend and probably your friendship and all her confidence in you will be lost forever.

 

That's why many disagree with mandatory reporting. It doesn't respect the wishes of the victims.

 

No, as an organization we have always understood that crimes (including rape and child abuse) should be reported to the authorities. We have always abhorred any kind of immorality, and much more anything done against children. Of course, fifty or sixty years ago child abuse was a taboo subject that was never mentioned, so it's not a surprise that some cases may not have been handled it in the best way.

 

The elders have never had instructions against reporting child abuse, much the opposite. But in a few cases some elders, mistaking the scriptural statement that one should not take a fellow Christian to court, advised not to report it. When they did so they were disregarding the instructions and following their own opinion.

If it is a state with mandatory reporting, the family members might resist seeking aid from the elders, knowing they are obligated to make a report to the authorities. Under some circumstances, mandatory reporting can be a hindrance to those caring for the sheep. 

[Guri]

 

3 hours ago, Hope said:

 

Honest question here -- was there really a time when Witnesses would NOT report a molester to the police??  Was that ever advised against by the elders?

Such questions deserve satisfying answers. 

 

[Old]

30 minutes ago, Guri said:

 

Such questions deserve satisfying answers. 

 

I tried.

[Sequoia]

34 minutes ago, Guri said:

 

Such questions deserve satisfying answers. 

 

The answer to Hope's question about Witnesses not reporting abuse is clearly no!  Concerning all elders or our whole entire organization, especially the governing body.  It seems that there were some elders that took it upon themselves to advise individuals not report the matter to the police. 

 

Unfortunately this was misinterpreted to reflect the attitude of our whole entire organization, then the media as well as others did not talk about elders that handled child abuse cases differently in a positive way of course.  

Edited May 10, 2018 by JW2017

[tekmantwo]

1 minute ago, Old said:

I tried.

And you did a good job of it too...thank you. ....

[Lance]

I can confirm Carlos post ...

 

There is no easy quick answer to a lot of these situations.

 

Here are number of observations over the years...

 

1) a brother or sister comes forward usually from ages 25-50 ..about something that happened in their family 10-40 years ago. 95 percent not from a JW background....

2) A young person in their late teens comes forward about something that happened within their own family by their own brother or sister.. the parent or parents  felt it was a  family matter and none of anyone’s  business.

3) A lot of serious morality problems ... have there roots in abuse issues before they came into the truth.

 

That is why elders are told to phone the branch ...

Most people think that ..issues are clear cut and straight forward ... 99 percent never are.

But one thing is for sure ...there is  great deal of emotional, mental, physical damage and other issues in the majority of our dear  brothers and sisters who went through this.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Lance

[Bob]

5 hours ago, carlos said:

That's why many disagree with mandatory reporting. It doesn't respect the wishes of the victims.

Also, it isn't acceptable for the elders to just report it and "let the police handle it" while they wipe their hands and wait on a verdict. Doing so would potentially allow a guilty abuser to remain in the congregation for the years it may take for a trail to end. By the elders being proactive and investigating means that they are trying to protect the congregation regardless of the legal process, and are willing to remove a guilty, unrepentant person as soon as the evidence comes out.

 

Why wait the years it may take for a court case to play out? I am happy we have an investigative process, which has nothing to do with the legal process, that is designed to protect members.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Bob

[Sequoia]

I would like to mention something that I forgot to mention earlier.  In the original Questions Young People Ask Book published in 1989 the book states in chapter one entitled; Why Should I Honor My Father and My Mother?   "We are not referring here to cases of physical or sexual abuse in which a youth may need to seek professional help from outside the home." 

 

So it was acknowledged  concerning young people with their parents back in 1989 by our organization that that in cases of abuse they may need professional help.

Edited May 11, 2018 by JW2017

[ChocoBro]

10 hours ago, Hope said:

 

It depends on how young the girl is.  I would first advise her - strongly - to tell her parents.  If she is a minor, it's their responsibility to report to the authorities.  Or not, their choice, right?  I would also mention it to a trusted elder.. there may be ramifications to her being raped (pregnancy, disease - not to mention the spiritual injury) and she will need help.

 

If she's not a minor, I'd ask how she felt if someone told her this... would she want the beast to continue to get away with it, maybe hurt someone else?  Regardless, if I came into the knowledge that there was a sexual predator in a congregation, I'd absolutely let the brothers know about it and go with whatever advice they gave me.  She may regret she told me, but I'd hope she'd regret letting a criminal continue unscathed even more.    

 

 

 

I understand you very well. And yet, this is why a lot of victims never come forward in the first place.

 

 

[carlos]

10 hours ago, Guri said:

Such questions deserve satisfying answers.

Good answers have already been given that can be easily documented.

 

But actually the answer is clear if you know Jehovah's people: What is our view of immorality? Would you say that we tolerate fornication? Often we are criticized for being too strict with those who commit immorality. Then, how on earth would we tolerate and protect child abusers? It doesn't make sense.

[Bob]

10 minutes ago, carlos said:

Good answers have already been given that can be easily documented.

 

But actually the answer is clear if you know Jehovah's people: What is our view of immorality? Would you say that we tolerate fornication? Often we are criticized for being too strict with those who commit immorality. Then, how on earth would we tolerate and protect child abusers? It doesn't make sense.

 

Also, does it make sense to hide abusers to “protect our reputation” of being morally clean? This is one of the most irritating, and ridiculous accusations. 

 

We gained our reputation for being morally clean by removing willful, unrepentant wrongdoers, not by hiding them. We’ve maintained that reputation by continually removing those people. 

 

So why would anyone think that hiding wrongdoing is a way to maintain the reputation of removing unrepentant wrongdoers?

 

I am happy this topic is public, because these sort of logical and thought-provoking questions are never asked in public discourse, because liars make up their own false narrative, and look to control that. 

 

[Guri]

18 hours ago, Old said:

I tried.

Old,

 

I only have read few comments. Can you please point the comment where I can read the answers on those questions sister asked? Thank you. 

[Old]

Brother Yuri, I would suggest you read the pertinent comments.

9 hours ago, carlos said:

Good answers have already been given that can be easily documented.

 

 

 

I believe that between my comments and Carlos comments JW2017's questions have been answered.

[Bob]

On 5/10/2018 at 4:13 PM, JW2017 said:

 

I just want to bring out again that I heard about a case dating back to at least 1960 where responsible brothers reported the matter to the authorities and turned everything over to the courts.  So it certainly wasn't prohibited by the brothers at the Branch Office and Head Quarters.

 

Yep

 

On 5/10/2018 at 4:13 PM, JW2017 said:

I have seen claims that they did not make us aware in any way at all, that we have the right to report serious crimes to the authorities until recently and that what they actually did say on the subject in the God's Love Book published in 2008. Which was studied in the Congregation in the Congregation Bible Study; https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008089?q=serious+crime&p=par Well some say that information was not made available until after 2010 and only to the elders not to the rest of us. 

 

Also that information was made available at least as far as reporting child abuse was concerned. As friends of mine and myself saw it prior to 2010, on one of our previous official websites www.jw-media.org  and in a Watchtower article in 2005;  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005563#h=13:0-13:263

 

This is why the GB is able to focus on their educational work and not be distracted and drawn into pointless debates in the media. This is why they do not have to come out and defend themselves to the public every time an inflammatory article is written. EVERYTHING is in writing or in video form and can be easily accessed, especially nowadays with them basically making their policies public again, like they did on the jw-media site.

 

I believe that when the situation calls for it, they will write an article, or use a Monthly Program to discuss an issue and get their message clearly across without distortions and deceptive editing by news media, and silly questions that deal with untrue and unverifiable accusations.

 

Having this is writing provides both a legal and logical defense.

[cricket246]

I could understand where a young girl/young woman might be leery of going to the authorities. If that person were in high office, had threated the person or their family, things like that might cause the person to question if notifying the proper people might cause even further harrasment or even endanger her or someone else. It would depend on the person, who all was involved, the ages, and also the situation/location.

[Myew]

On 5/10/2018 at 2:43 PM, ChocoBro said:

So just a question here. You know a young girl who likes you a lot and trusts you. One day, under tears, she confides to you that she was raped by somebody you also know that person.

 

Angry and disgusted and in a fervour of justice, you tell the young girl she MUST notify the authorities. She tells you she does not want that, for fear of what would happen to her, or because she is scared of confronting the police and being accused of being a liar. All of your attempts to convince her of the necessity of speaking out are of no avail, in fact, she mentions that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to tell you.

I've never been able to understand how people can reach the conclusion that the correct course or right thing to do is hide a matter and act like it didn't happen. I've never personally felt it was right to go along with this attitude.  Still, I sadly admit that I've gone without saying things that I feel I should have, or have often given in to others wishes to comply with their feelings when it comes to emotional issues, even when I disagreed. I have been in the very situation you are describing, not among Witnesses, before I made the truth my own. It still continues to bother my conscience, I feel that my actions were hypocritical, and I am still angry at myself for not having done more. I was just a dumb kid who didn't understand.

Yes, it will hurt severely to accept that someone you trusted took advantage of you and to then admit it openly. They may have abusive brothers, and fathers, and grandfathers, and feel that they have no one else to turn to or trust. Yet, unresolved trauma will fester, leading to far worse problems and permanent emotional scars, even brain damage.

However, we as Witnesses must realize that we have Jehovah to protect us and his principles to guide us. We must not rely on our own understanding, we must put our trust in him. Following his instruction is the only way that anyone can be able to cope with and overcome such trauma. In order to be righteous and have a clear conscience, we must not be deceitful, we must think and act in truth. Jehovah will see to it that he will care for us and that justice is done if we simply do what he says. Our thoughts lead to our feelings. We must accept Jehovah's thoughts before allowing our own stupid reasoning to turn into fear and become controlled by it. Jehovah also wants us to seek help, both from within and without.

(Leviticus 5:1) “‘If someone sins because he has heard a public call to testify and he is a witness or has seen or learned about it and he does not report it, then he will answer for his error.

(Job 27:4) My lips will not speak unrighteousness; Nor will my tongue mutter deceit! (Job 27:6) I will maintain my righteousness and never let it go; My heart will not condemn me as long as I live.

(Psalm 15:1, 2) O Jehovah, who may be a guest in your tent? Who may reside in your holy mountain?  2 The one who is walking faultlessly, Practicing what is right And speaking the truth in his heart. (Psalm 15:4) He rejects anyone who is contemptible, But he honors those fearing Jehovah. He does not go back on his promise, even when it is bad for him.

 

(Proverbs 29:23-25) The haughtiness of a man will humble him, But whoever is humble in spirit will obtain glory. 24 The partner of a thief hates himself. He may hear the call to testify, but he reports nothing. 25 Trembling at men is a snare, But the one trusting in Jehovah will be protected.

(Zechariah 8:16) “‘These are the things you should do: Speak the truth with one another, and the judgments in your gates must promote truth and peace.

 

On 5/10/2018 at 2:43 PM, ChocoBro said:

Now what?

If this were to happen to me now, I would do my best to thank her for doing and saying the right thing. I'd try to help her to understand that her admitting this is a clear sign that she cannot bear it on her own, and needs to seek help. I would ask her to trust that Jehovah cares for her and wants to protect her, and that the step he wants us to take is to turn to the authorities as well as the congregation. If she still doesn't listen, I would feel hurt and very sad, but I would pray and ask Jehovah to give me the strength to make sure that those who should know, do know.

(Romans 13:3-5) For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad. 5 There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.

(James 5:13-16) Is there anyone suffering hardship among you? Let him carry on prayer. Is there anyone in good spirits? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect.

(Ecclesiastes 8:11) Because sentence against a bad deed has not been executed speedily, the heart of men becomes emboldened to do bad.

Jesus gave us this illustration to show that we need to continue displaying a deep degree of consistent faith in order to have these scenarios resolved.

(Luke 18:1-8) Then he went on to tell them an illustration about the need for them always to pray and not to give up, 2 saying: “In a certain city there was a judge who had no fear of God and no respect for man. 3 There was also a widow in that city who kept going to him and saying, ‘See that I get justice from my legal opponent.’ 4 Well, for a while he was unwilling, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Although I do not fear God or respect any man, 5 because this widow keeps making me trouble, I will see that she gets justice so that she will not keep coming and wearing me out with her demand.’” 6 Then the Lord said: “Hear what the judge, although unrighteous, said! 7 Certainly, then, will not God cause justice to be done for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night, while he is patient toward them? 8 I tell you, he will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?”

I still wonder with trembling if Jesus will find me acting in faith or in fear...

Edited May 15, 2018 by Myew

[rocket]

On 5/10/2018 at 12:43 PM, ChocoBro said:

So just a question here. You know a young girl who likes you a lot and trusts you. One day, under tears, she confides to you that she was raped by somebody you also know that person.

 

Angry and disgusted and in a fervour of justice, you tell the young girl she MUST notify the authorities. She tells you she does not want that, for fear of what would happen to her, or because she is scared of confronting the police and being accused of being a liar. All of your attempts to convince her of the necessity of speaking out are of no avail, in fact, she mentions that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to tell you.

 

Now what?

 

The smart thing to do is early on in the conversation to say that you are obligated to report a crime to the police.