Jesus may not have died on the cross, Christian scholar claims.

[Sheep]

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion, mostly between @carlos and @annakot. You two (and others) are digging into this more deeply than I ever have. It's very insightful. Thank you.

[annakot]

3 hours ago, Sheep said:

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion, mostly between @carlos and @annakot. You two (and others) are digging into this more deeply than I ever have. It's very insightful. Thank you.

Thank you 😁. I have just found something else very interesting. But it is more in favor of the cross, or at least a shape where the arms would have to be outstretched, unfortunately 😣 . It's not that I am trying to find evidence for the cross  (I don't really care what shape it was) but it's just part and parcel of investigative work. Sometimes you find things you didnt expect. I will be interested to see what @carlos thinks about it. Right now I don't have time to write any more, but I will as soon as I can!

[carlos]

3 hours ago, annakot said:

I will be interested to see what @carlos thinks about it.

I'm in no way a cross expert.  Please share what you have found and let's see different viewpoints.

 

On the other hand, when three different words are used to refer to an object, and all three mean an upright stake, Occam's razor suggests that object is most likely an upright stake. 

 

[jayrtom]

9 hours ago, carlos said:

Occam's razor suggests that object is most likely an upright stake

[Guri]

10 hours ago, carlos said:

I'm in no way a cross expert.  

This made me smile  

[Pjdriver]

On 11/11/2018 at 6:31 PM, carlos said:

Yet in the most recent publications that approach has changed. They now concentrate on the idea that it doesn't make sense to worship the instrument of Jesus' death, whatever its shape was. 

Good point!

From JW.org

“Many view the cross as the most common symbol of Christianity. However, the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty. Still, the Bible provides evidence that Jesus died, not on a cross, but on an upright stake.”

[Guri]

41 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

Good point!

From JW.org

“Many view the cross as the most common symbol of Christianity. However, the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty. Still, the Bible provides evidence that Jesus died, not on a cross, but on an upright stake.”

Brother Burt, 

 

I agree with you. No one knows with absolute certainty. In fact, it should not matter for a Christian what shape was the Stauros (σταυρός). Its the life and death of Jesus what matters or should matter for all not the shape of the Stauros. 

 

For the sake of gaining academical knowledge, one can do deep research again and again, and even follow the Bible logic but at the end, the conclusion probably will be the same as you wrote above. 

[jayrtom]

1 hour ago, Guri said:

Brother Burt, 

 

I agree with you. No one knows with absolute certainty. In fact, it should not matter for a Christian what shape was the Stauros (σταυρός). Its the life and death of Jesus what matters or should matter for all not the shape of the Stauros. 

 

For the sake of gaining academical knowledge, one can do deep research again and again, and even follow the Bible logic but at the end, the conclusion probably will be the same as you wrote above. 

Nevertheless we have solid base to continue to say that Jesus didn't die on the cross and use that understanding when making illustrations or videos. It's true we can't be absolute certainty about the exact shape (please not that the sentence is not: "we don't have the absolute certainty that the shape wasn't a cross") but its also true that the evidence from the bible is that Jesus didn't die on a cross but on an upright stake. Because of the 2 sentences, my understanding is that we don't know the exact form of the "upright stake" but it wasn't a cross based on the biblical evidence (cross intended to be 2 sticks transversely sticked together)

 

 

[1MKnight]

On 11/13/2018 at 2:49 PM, Dages said:

What do you think of this famous graffito? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

 

On 11/13/2018 at 5:29 PM, carlos said:

I have seen that before. It could be anything, since neither the image nor the text are clear. Scholars have used circular reasoning to interpret it: Since it apparently depicts a donkey on a cross, and Christians believe Jesus was crucified, it has to be a mockery of Jesus.

 

On the other hand, if Christians did not believe Jesus died on a cross, that could have represented anything. There's nothing in the picture suggesting that Alexamenos is a Christian or the donkey is Jesus.

What is clear is that it is referring to a "god" that was crucified. 

Josephus, Origin and Tertullian show some sort of support for the idea that Christian opposers called Jesus a donkey or accused Christians of donkey worship to some degree. 

 

I, of course, don't have all the facts. I don't know if this was a common insult to other groups or not, or if it was possibly related to earlier Jewish uprisings where a man claimed to be the Messiah and was called a donkey. That is very possible. 

All this being said, the referenced wiki entry mentions that

 

"It is hard to date . . . No clear consensus has been reached on when the image was made. Dates ranging from the late 1st to the late 3rd century have been suggested, with the beginning of the 3rd century thought to be the most likely."

[Pjdriver]

On 11/14/2018 at 4:18 AM, jayrtom said:

The real issue is also the truth!  and the FDS is convinced that Jesus didn't die on coss shaped object but in a simple stake.

This maybe one reason we can’t be sure..

John 20:25

So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.

 

John 22:18...when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands....He said this to indicate by what sort of death he would glorify God.

 

So John indicates nails (plural) were used. This could understood to mean one nail in each hand as with a cross.

Also tradition is that peter was executed in the manner Jesus was. Note the expression “stretch out your hands” again could easily be understood as referring to a cross. 

But none of this is conclusive. So why be dogmatic.

If cornered I would say we can’t be certain but most evidence leans toward an upright stake. I wouldn’t bother arguing that point much. 

The matter of using it as an icon of worship is another matter. 

 

 

[Dages]

Quote

stretch out your hands

I have always read that with the image of a prisoner stretching out (frontward) his hand because he is about to be in cuffs

Edited November 17, 2018 by Dages

[Pjdriver]

24 minutes ago, Dages said:

I have always read that with the image of a prisoner stretching out (frontward) his hand because he is about to be in cuffs

Funny how we see the same thing differently.

i wouldn’t call that stretching out your hands.

I would say it looks more like bringing them together so as to restrict  there movement. But that’s just me.

 

But again, nothing is conclusive. 

 

[Guri]

17 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

But again, nothing is conclusive. 

I agree. 

 

Both can be described as "stretched out hands":

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Guri

[Tortuga]

I haven't researched this yet and perhaps it's already answered in this thread, but where did the stake/cross come from? Did the Jews keep a supply of crosses out back just in case they needed to kill someone? Did they borrow a ready made cross from the Romans? Did the two criminals have to carry their crosses too or were their crosses waiting for them? Was it normal for a condemned man to carry his own cross/stake or was Jesus the only one?

[Guri]

15 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I haven't researched this yet and perhaps it's already answered in this thread, but where did the stake/cross come from? Did the Jews keep a supply of crosses out back just in case they needed to kill someone? Did they borrow a ready made cross from the Romans? Did the two criminals have to carry their crosses too or were their crosses waiting for them? Was it normal for a condemned man to carry his own cross/stake or was Jesus the only one?

Brother Richard, 

 

The reference Bible explains it in the appendix: 

 

Quote

Explaining why a simple stake was often used for executions, the book Das Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: “Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed.”

 

[Guri]

[annakot]

I am no expert on crosses either @carlosbut I do love detective work. I agree with you entirely. Semantics about the meaning of words does not impress me. You have experience with that as someone who speaks more than one language I'm sure. I used to proofread and translate. You have to know which word to use according to context, that is why Google translate fails, because it does not understand context. I'm sure you've noticed some very funny translations by Google! Language is very interesting as it develops. 

However, what I found is entirely different. I had hoped I could find either a sculpture or some artistic depiction of the torture implement from before the Christian era which could connect the origin to what may have been used in Jesus' case. But besides the dubious depiction of the amulet with the crucified man, that you mention I did not find any depiction of crosses used in executions.  Evidently, visual artists weren't as prolific as writers though because I did find something of a clue from the works of the 2nd century satirical writer Lucian of Samosata. It's true, he lived a 150 or so years into the Christian era, but it's the closest compared with the supposed "first" depiction of the shape of the cross as a torture device in the 4th century, (after which the art world exploded with Christendom's crosses!)

 

First, as many of you know, the etymology of stauros: The R. S. P. Beekes, Etymological Dictionary of Greek, Brill, 2009, says on page 601: The word stauros comes from the verb ἵστημι (histēmi: "straighten up", "stand"), which in turn comes from the Proto-Indo-European root *steh2-u- "pole",[1] related to the root *steh2- "to stand, to set"

 

Back to Lucian. Lucian of Samosata, (circa 125-180 AD) was a satirical writer and in his work "Prometheus on Caucasus" he uses the Greek word stauros with its' various forms such as: Anestavrostho, stavromenos, and stavrosi etc. which  translators have translated as “let him be crucified” “crucified” and “crucifixion” respectively.

 

ἀνεσταυρώσθω   (Anestavrostho - let him be crucified)

σταυρωμένος (stavromenos – crucified)

σταύρωση (stavrosi- crucifixion)

 

In his writing about Prometheus he apparently gives us an idea of what he thought the stauros looked like:

Hermes: This, Hephaestus, is the Caucasus, to which it is our painful duty to nail our companion. We have now to select a suitable crag, free from snow, on which the chains will have a good hold, and the prisoner will hang in all publicity.

Hephaestus: True. It will not do to fix him too low down, or these men of his might come to their maker's assistance; nor at the top, where he would be invisible from the earth. What do you say to a middle course? Let him hang over this precipice, with his arms stretched across from crag to crag.

Hermes: The very thing. Steep rocks, slightly overhanging, inaccessible on every side; no foothold but a mere ledge, with scarcely room for the tips of one's toes; altogether a sweet spot for a crucifixion. Now, Prometheus, come and be nailed up; there is no time to lose.

Prometheus: Nay, hear me; Hephaestus! Hermes! I suffer injustice: have compassion on my woes!

Hermes: In other words, disobey orders, and promptly be gibbeted in your stead! Do you suppose there is not room on the Caucasus to peg out a couple of us? Come, your right hand! clamp it down, Hephaestus, and in with the nails; bring down the hammer with a will. Now the left; make sure work of that too.--So!--The eagle will shortly be here, to trim your liver; so ingenious an artist is entitled to every attention.

 

This website shows the Greek version with the English translation. Unfortunately I wanted to go to the next page as well and then couldn’t go back because I had reached my limit for pages (which seems to be one (!). So don’t make the same mistake as me, unless you want to subscribe.

https://www.loebclassics.com/view/lucian-prometheus/1915/pb_LCL054.241.xml

------------------------------------------------

The Greek playwright Aeschylus (circa 525 -456 BCE) wrote (supposedly) the original play Prometheus Bound* and does not mention a stauros but that doesn’t change the idea that stauros could have been a stake with a cross beam as per Lucian’s satirical interpretation of the Prometheus mythology/legend. In one of his other works "the death of Peregrine" he mentions the stauros with relation to Jesus: "Peregrine, all this time, was making quite an income on the strength of his bondage; money came pouring in. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

 

Keep in mind Lucian was non Christian writer. So the question is: Where did Lucian get his idea for the shape of the stauros?

Or was his work mistranslated? Or were his original writings tampered with to change the description of how Prometheus was nailed to the crag? Or were people already executed on a cross beam in the 2nd Century as opposed much later (4th century)?

You might think of other questions....

 

 

*Prometheus Bound -  by Aeschylus

"But forcibly to bind a brother God, In chains, in this deep chasm raked by all storms........In bonds of brass not easy to be loosed, Nailing thee to this crag where no wight dwells"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aesch/promet.htm

Edited November 17, 2018 by annakot

[Pjdriver]

12 hours ago, Tortuga said:

 

Did the Jews keep a supply of crosses out back just in case they needed to kill someone?

 

Yeah, they were growing out of the ground......when they needed one the just chopped it down.  

[Tortuga]

35 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

Yeah, they were growing out of the ground......when they needed one the just chopped it down.  

Well...and that was kind of what i was asking about..

It seems to me that if we had a better understanding of where the cross/stake came from and why Jesus had to drag it to his execution, we might have a better idea how reasonable it would be whether it was a stake or cross.

 

If the Jews provided the stake/cross and forced Jesus to carry it, would they reasonably take time to make a cross? Would they reasonably comply with the Roman method of execution? Or would they grab a convenient pole and get on with the show? If the Romans provided the stake/cross out of their ready supply of execution stake/crosses, then why would Jesus be carrying it? Where did he pick it up?

 

It just seems to me that if we could fill in some blanks about where the stake/cross came from, we might have a better idea if it was reasonably a stake or a cross...  

[Guri]

4 hours ago, annakot said:

In his writing about Prometheus he apparently gives us an idea of what he thought the stauros looked like:

Hermes: This, Hephaestus, is the Caucasus, to which it is our painful duty to nail our companion. We have now to select a suitable crag, free from snow, on which the chains will have a good hold, and the prisoner will hang in all publicity.

Hephaestus: True. It will not do to fix him too low down, or these men of his might come to their maker's assistance; nor at the top, where he would be invisible from the earth. What do you say to a middle course? Let him hang over this precipice, with his arms stretched across from crag to crag.

annakot, 

 

It is interesting that RBi8 NWT Bible on p. 1577-1578 says: 

 

«It was to such a stake, or pale, that the person to be punished was fastened, just as the popular Greek hero Prometheus was represented as tied to rocks. Whereas the Greek word that the dramatist Aeschylus used to describe this simply means to tie or to fasten, the Greek author Lucian (Prometheus, I) used a·na·stau·roʹo as a synonym for that word.».

 

What do you think of this? 

 

 

[Pjdriver]

14 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Well...and that was kind of what i was asking about..

It seems to me that if we had a better understanding of where the cross/stake came from and why Jesus had to drag it to his execution, we might have a better idea how reasonable it would be whether it was a stake or cross.

 

If the Jews provided the stake/cross and forced Jesus to carry it, would they reasonably take time to make a cross? Would they reasonably comply with the Roman method of execution? Or would they grab a convenient pole and get on with the show? If the Romans provided the stake/cross out of their ready supply of execution stake/crosses, then why would Jesus be carrying it? Where did he pick it up?

 

It just seems to me that if we could fill in some blanks about where the stake/cross came from, we might have a better idea if it was reasonably a stake or a cross...  

I think There’s a number of different ways that could be answered. There’s  just no way to know which answer would be the correct one. 

However I think the fact that we don’t have the evidence on the exact shape that is 100% conclusive, indicates to me that it’s not all that important.

On the other hand we do have clear direction not to use images in our worship.   ✝️ 

 

[Pjdriver]

I find it interesting that in the 4th century CE Constantine introduced the cross as a symbol of Christianity but historically we know of no arguments at the time being made objecting to the shape of the cross, but we do know there was much controversy regarding the use of images in Worship. There was a lot written about major disputes regarding the divinity of Jesus and the use of icons but there doesn’t appear to be any disputing about the shape of instrument of Jesus death. Apparently it didn’t seem to be an issue, unless I’m missing something.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Pjdriver

[Dages]

About the "stretching our your hands"

 

 

Quote

 But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and another man will clothe you and carry you where you do not wish.”

If the order is chronological, it doesn't seem that is about any crucifiction.

Old Peter would stretch out his hands (forward) to be taken, clothed, and carreid to a place he doesn't wish. 

 

For Jesus, anyway, if you take into account the "INRI" sign at the top, you could definitely draw the instrument as a cross. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Dages

[Pjdriver]

2 hours ago, Dages said:

About the "stretching our your hands"

 

 

If the order is chronological, it doesn't seem that is about any crucifiction.

Old Peter would stretch out his hands (forward) to be taken, clothed, and carreid to a place he doesn't wish. 

 

For Jesus, anyway, if you take into account the "INRI" sign at the top, you could definitely draw the instrument as a cross. 

As I said, it not conclusive. It could be understood each way. Who knows, maybe the sign created the confusion....but I doubt it.

[hatcheckgirl]

On 11/18/2018 at 4:35 AM, annakot said:

I had hoped I could find either a sculpture or some artistic depiction of the torture implement from before the Christian era which could connect the origin to what may have been used in Jesus' case. But besides the dubious depiction of the amulet with the crucified man, that you mention I did not find any depiction of crosses used in executions. 

Sunray posted this pic earlier on https://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/881-jesus-may-not-have-died-on-the-cross-christian-scholar-claims/?do=findComment&comment=597027

 

 

It depicts a copy from Roman times of a Greek statue of the 2nd century BCE of Marsyas, who in Greek mythology was flayed and then hung on a stake.  This is just of interest to our discussion because it does show some ancient evidence of execution on a tree/pole/stake with arms overhead, albeit tied with ropes, not nailed.