Describing motion in English vs other languages

[carlos]

This is interesting if you are learning English or another language, or if you are just interested in the way languages work. I just watched a video from my favorite online English teacher that helped me understand the way English describes motion verbs vs my language, Spanish:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAtz1YAHf8

This is very useful to build sentences in English that sound more natural to the native ear.

 

He explains that, depending on the way they describe movements, there are two kinds of languages:

- Verb-framed languages, where all the information about the movement is in the verb: Romance languages (Spanish, French, Portuguese...), Arabic, Korean,...

- Satellite-framed languages, where the verb only describes the manner and the actual movement is described in an additional particle, named the satellite: Germanic languages (such as English and German), Greek, ...

 

This is better understood with some examples:

 

"To get there go in, down, through, across, around, up and out." Here you use one single verb "to go" for seven different actions. In most other languages you would have to use seven different verbs for that.

 

English: He walked into the room.

Spanish: Él entró en la habitación (lit. "He entered the room").

 

In English, the verb only tells us the manner he went into the room: He was walking (not running, or jumping, or on a bike). The satellite that describes the actual movement is "into". You can use that same verb with lots of different satellites to describe different movements: walk out, walk across, walk through... In contrast, in Spanish you use a specific verb to describe the action. "Walk into" is "entrar". "Walk out" is "salir", a completely different verb. If you want to highlight the manner, you can add that in Spanish as a complement "Él entró en la habitación andando" ("he entered the room walking"), but in most cases that is unnecessary, because people entering a room usually do that on foot.

 

It's true that more specific motion verbs exist in English too, such as "enter", "exit", "descend", "ascend" and so on, but that's due to the French and Latin influence, and actually sentences using those verbs sound more formal and less natural.

 

Another example:

English: I'm flying to Japan tomorrow.

Spanish: Mañana voy a Japón. (Lit. "I'm going to Japan tomorrow").

 

In English "flying" only describes the manner. You will travel by plane. The satellite is "to Japan". That's your movement, going to Japan. In Spanish, though, you simply say "I'm going to Japan". Of course you can always add "by plane", but most of the time that's unnecessary, because it's understood that if you go from Spain to Japan you will do it by plane.

 

A Spanish speaker talking in English will tend to say "He entered the room" and "I'm going to Japan tomorrow by plane". While those sentences are correct and understandable, they don't sound natural. Understanding this will help me (I hope) to sound more natural in English.

 

By the way, this feature allows English to create a motion verb from any noun: "She danced up the stairs." "I ambled around the market for hours." "He meandered down the river". "I went to the beach and sauntered my headache off." Those sentences are difficult to translate into verb-framed languages or require additional verbosity.

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by carlos

[Miss Bea]

You know what? This took me back to high school, and, “advanced English”. 
I can eventually figure out most things, but, the structure of language is not one of them. 
I still shudder at, “diagramming sentences”. 
I did all right, but, can you imagine looking at a sentence you are supposed to diagram, and feel helpless. Yes, I knew the verb and noun, beyond that, I was guessing!

My brain would not compute!

[New World Explorer]

Me thinks going To Japan, good idea , me pack,  me go, me excited. 

Big man stops me at the airport ...me afraid

 Big man shouts ...border closed ....me ...sad...go home 

Me thinks ...me try again tomorrow. 

 

I call this “lockdown desperation gramma” LOL 

 

 

[carlos]

8 minutes ago, Miss Bea said:

I did all right, but, can you imagine looking at a sentence you are supposed to diagram, and feel helpless. Yes, I knew the verb and noun, beyond that, I was guessing!

I would feel the same as you, Bea, if I had to draw one of those diagrams today.

 

What I explained above means that a foreign speaker of English would say sentences like "She ascended the stairs dancing" or "We will go to Bombay by boat tomorrow". Yet those sentences sound wooden to the native ear. A native speaker would rather say "She danced up the stairs" or "We will sail to Bombay tomorrow".

 

That is, English prefers to use a verb that describes the manner how the movement takes place (walk, run, dance, sail) plus another word that indicates the direction: up, down, into, across, forward...

 

This has no use for a native speaker like you, Bea, but it's very helpful for a foreign speaker like me to express myself in a more natural way.

 

 

[Ludwika]

My father once said that out of all the languages he could speak (about 6 from memory) English was the hardest to learn. But looking at this Carlos, I think it "aint necessarily so"! 

[New World Explorer]

4 minutes ago, Ludwika said:

My father once said that out of all the languages he could speak (about 6 from memory) English was the hardest to learn. But looking at this Carlos, I think it "aint necessarily so"! 

You Father spoke 6 languages? Wow....which ones? 

[carlos]

6 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

You Father spoke 6 languages? Wow....which ones? 

Greg, I understand lots of languages: Spanish, Mexican, Venezuelan, Colombian, Argentinian...

[Ludwika]

50 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

You Father spoke 6 languages? Wow....which ones? 

Polish, Russian, Italian, Portuguese, English, and I think Ukrainian, can't remember if that was the sixth for sure. He's no longer alive to ask! He always said that you know you are fluent when you're no longer translating it in your head. 

Sent from my WAS-LX2 using Tapatalk
 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Ludwika

[Dages]

It reminds me of when I was studying English in college, when I learnt that in English there are only 2 grammatical tenses, the present and the past. This has made the thing so much simpler. I will sing, I would sing.  

 

And the same simplification can be done in French too, the conjugation of the verb "to have" is used as a basis for many chronological tenses (like present perfect / pluperfect / future...).

For instance, "future" tense is done with the infinitive + endings of "to have" in the present tense (ai / as / a / avons / avez / ont).

Je chanterai

Tu chanteras

Il chantera

Nous chanterons 

Vous chanterez

Ils chanteront

 

 Same in Spanish, right ?

Edited October 13, 2020 by Dages

[➕👇 ꓤꓱꓷꓠꓵ🎵Tone]

It reminds me of when I was studying English in college, when I learnt that in English there are only 2 grammatical tenses, the present and the past...

If only it was that simple...

"Some grammarians consider that strictly-speaking there are only two English tenses. Others argue six or other quantities. For the sake of simplicity, Learners of English as a Foreign or Second Language are usually taught that - taking into account aspect and future modals - there are....

There are 12 tenses in English!
Present Simple:
I do, I do do

Present Continuous:
I am doing

Present Perfect:
I have done

Present Perfect Continuous:
I have been doing

Past Simple:
I did, I did do

Past Continuous:
I was doing

Past Perfect:
I had done

Past Perfect Continuous:
I had been doing

Future Simple:
I will do

Future Continuous:
I will be doing

Future Perfect:
I will have done

Future Perfect Continuous:
I will have been doing

Most native English speakers do not know what theyl 12 tenses are called, but they learned them by hearing and repeating the expressions as children.

https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verb-tenses.htm

Old (Downunder) Tone

[New World Explorer]

7 hours ago, Dages said:

I will sing, I would sing.

Can you do it on Zoom? Can I choose a song for you to sing? LOL 

[Dages]

9 hours ago, ➕👇 ꓤꓱꓷꓠꓵ🎵Tone said:

 

 

If only it was that simple...

"Some grammarians consider that strictly-speaking there are only two English tenses. Others argue six or other quantities. For the sake of simplicity, Learners of English as a Foreign or Second Language are usually taught that - taking into account aspect and future modals - there are....

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

There are 12 tenses in English!
Present Simple:
I do, I do do

Present Continuous:
I am doing

Present Perfect:
I have done

Present Perfect Continuous:
I have been doing

Past Simple:
I did, I did do

Past Continuous:
I was doing

Past Perfect:
I had done

Past Perfect Continuous:
I had been doing

Future Simple:
I will do

Future Continuous:
I will be doing

Future Perfect:
I will have done

Future Perfect Continuous:
I will have been doing

Most native English speakers do not know what theyl 12 tenses are called, but they learned them by hearing and repeating the expressions as children.

https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verb-tenses.htm

Old (Downunder) Tone
 

I know about these, but the blocks are present and/or past items

[carlos]

On 10/14/2020 at 12:01 AM, Dages said:

Same in Spanish, right ?

Exactly the same. Spanish and French are sister languages. 

[Janek]

On 10/13/2020 at 9:56 PM, Ludwika said:

Polish, Russian, Italian, Portuguese, English, and I think Ukrainian, can't remember if that was the sixth for sure. He's no longer alive to ask! He always said that you know you are fluent when you're no longer translating it in your head. 

Sent from my WAS-LX2 using Tapatalk
 

Was he Polish? Russian is easy for the Poles to learn. All Slavic languages in fact. Slavic comes from "slovo", which means "a word". All the Slavs could speak to themselves as the languages were so similar. In Slavic languages Germans are called Niemcy, which means "dumb" because they could not speak "the word". Initialy that word was used for all non-slavic nations. If you speak Russian and Polish, then Ukrainian is a mix of the two. Portugese, Italian and Spanish are easy to learn for the Poles because (apart from Spanish C (pron. th)) all the sounds are pretty the same as in Polish. English is the most difficult becasue words are pronounced differently from what they are spelled). French - it is like 2 languages, one is written and the other one is spoken.

[Ludwika]

54 minutes ago, Janek said:

Was he Polish? Russian is easy for the Poles to learn. All Slavic languages in fact. Slavic comes from "slovo", which means "a word". All the Slavs could speak to themselves as the languages were so similar. In Slavic languages Germans are called Niemcy, which means "dumb" because they could not speak "the word". Initialy that word was used for all non-slavic nations. If you speak Russian and Polish, then Ukrainian is a mix of the two. Portugese, Italian and Spanish are easy to learn for the Poles because (apart from Spanish C (pron. th)) all the sounds are pretty the same as in Polish. English is the most difficult becasue words are pronounced differently from what they are spelled). French - it is like 2 languages, one is written and the other one is spoken.

Yes, he was Polish, so Russian wasn't too much of a stretch, except for the fact that he learnt it in a labour camp in Siberia! He was quite gifted linguistically, he picked up languages easily. And you're right, he said English was the most difficult. The plural of mouse should be mouses, but it's mice. These anomalies in the language were hard to pick up. I don't take after him in that talent, unfortunately. I wish I did. 

[bohemian]

 

 

[Margaret]

I’m looking for someone to help me write letters in Polish to people in the hospital in Poland that was mentioned in a story on JW.org

[New World Explorer]

1 hour ago, Margaret said:

I’m looking for someone to help me write letters in Polish to people in the hospital in Poland that was mentioned in a story on JW.org

I am fluent in Polish, can I be of help? 

[Margaret]

I would like to write to the patients in the Polish hospital mentioned on jw.org but i really dont trust google translate 

[New World Explorer]

17 minutes ago, Margaret said:

I would like to write to the patients in the Polish hospital mentioned on jw.org but i really dont trust google translate 

I can translate if you wish.  

[Margaret]

1 hour ago, New World Explorer said:

I can translate if you wish.  

As soon as i write one I’ll send it to you to translate, thank you

[Katty]

I find English can be both, but the more Romance influenced verb framed way of speaking English might be more formal, and the more Satellite framed form of English might be more common. The verb-framed Romantic influence structure is not wrong grammar, but does sometimes sound a little pretentious doesn't it?
"He entered the room, walking." does sound a bit more uppidy than "He walked into the room."
English is a bit of a hybrid language: I mean, it's inherited words from languages around the world, but is mostly Germanic or Romantic.

 

I believe that in 1066, when William of Normandy conquered England, it created a class distinction between the conquering (French speaking) Normans who elected themselves as the elite class of England, and the more common (Germanic speaking) Anglo-Saxons. I believe everything about English vocabulary has the tendency to be reflective of the past class distinctions.
I wonder if this is why the English speaking world still stereotypes the French as being really snooty....but I digress.

 

The  more common English would be reflective, however of Germanic roots, I suppose. 

 

this is an interesting thread.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Katty