The objectivity of verses when they describe people’s looks.

[Hotteok]

Were they objectively good looking only then?
Or universally objective? (Meaning that they’ll always be considered good-looking now here or in the NW)

 

Even though the writers were inspired, they only knew the ancient Israel world.. and its ancient aesthetic view.
It’s not wrong for them to simply state how people back then felt about their looks.

Although the Bible is a spiritual book, it still has parts where people’s looks are explained… usually to give an understanding as to the context
Or as to why certain things happened. (Why Saul was chosen. Why Job’s three daughters were beautiful because they were…. Blessed by Jehovah? 
Is good-looks a blessing of Jehovah, by the way? Why Sarah was in danger)

But sometimes I come to kind of doubt as to its universal objectivity when it comes to looks-describing verses.
Was Sarah really so beautiful at that age that she was in danger? 
(She might’ve been more perfect than women now back then, however) 

Or
When I read verses like  1 Samuel 9:2 (He had a son named Saul, who was young and handsome—there was no man among the Israelites more handsome than he—and he stood head and shoulders taller than all the people.)

I’m like.. what..???? How… is that even possible? Most handsome? If it were, he was the tallest, I'd get it better. 
How can you measure one’s looks? Whether one is handsomer and less handsome. (I’d need a Hebrew dictionary for the verse above)
 

And when I read verses where Job’s daughters are said to be beautiful .. more than all the women in all the land.. what?? Now I'm really curious.

One should probably go to NW to really see… but then our perfect ‘eyes’ won’t be able to tell the differences.
Besides, everyone will have a perfect skin.. perfect health.. so I’m note sure if I’ll be able to be genuinely surprised when I finally meet Kerʹen-hapʹpuch.

Sorry if you feel this post is stupid, sorry for taking your time.. : - ) 
 

Edited March 3, 2022 by VisualizeUrParadise

[Dages]

If you want the hebrew version : 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_samuel/9-2.htm

(in the Septuagint, it's "Agathos")

 

Quote

I’m like.. what..???? How… is that even possible? Most handsome? If it were, he was the tallest, I'd get it better. 

He was like the Henry Cavill of his time  

[Pjdriver]

2 hours ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

But sometimes I come to kind of doubt as to its universal objectivity when it comes to looks-describing verses.
Was Sarah really so beautiful at that age that she was in danger? 
(She might’ve been more perfect than women now back then, however) 

Timothy, It’s not that complicated. Beauty is subjective to a point. However, Most people have a general agreement on what beauty looks like. If the Bible says Sarah was beautiful....then that was no doubt the opinion of most that seen her.

I can easily see how that could put her in danger. Back at the time women didn’t have rights. A Ruler could say “I want that woman” who’s going to tell him , no?  (except Jehovah).

2 hours ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

How can you measure one’s looks? Whether one is handsomer and less handsome.

Why are there beauty contest if it’s all subjective and can’t be measured?  I think there is a general consensus of what beauty looks like.  

 

2 hours ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

 

One should probably go to NW to really see… but then our perfect ‘eyes’ won’t be able to tell the differences.
 

I don’t think perfect eyes will make people better looking. Maybe poor eyesight does.  

  Although, I have a feeling there won’t be ugly people in the new world.  Jehovah has given us the ability to see the beauty within a person. When that happens, although they may be just average,  the person becomes very  attractive. For example,  you may think I’m crazy but I think pregnant women are very attractivel. I recall a waitress that I wouldn’t consider very attractive. I later seen her pregnant...and I thought she was suddenly very attractive (not in a sexual way).

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Pjdriver

[daydream]

2 hours ago, Dages said:

Henry Cavill

 

 

Swoonworthy!

[daydream]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beastly-behavior/201907/why-are-symmetrical-faces-so-attractive

 

There is another feature that drives perceptions of attractiveness and does so almost equally among men and women: facial symmetry. Across many clever experimental designs, researchers have confirmed that we rate faces that are more symmetrical as more attractive than those with less symmetry.

 

[Hotteok]

20 minutes ago, happiness IS said:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beastly-behavior/201907/why-are-symmetrical-faces-so-attractive

 

There is another feature that drives perceptions of attractiveness and does so almost equally among men and women: facial symmetry. Across many clever experimental designs, researchers have confirmed that we rate faces that are more symmetrical as more attractive than those with less symmetry.

 

If an asymmetrical face is a sign of imperfection or unhealthiness, I guess that'll be fixed in the NW!

[Hotteok]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

Timothy, It’s not that complicated. Beauty is subjective to a point. However, Most people have a general agreement on what beauty looks like. If the Bible says Sarah was beautiful....then that was no doubt the opinion of most that seen her.

I can easily see how that could put her in danger. Back at the time women didn’t have rights. A Ruler could say “I want that woman” who’s going to tell him , no?  (except Jehovah).

Why are there beauty contest if it’s all subjective and can’t be measured?  I think there is a general consensus of what beauty looks like.  

 

I don’t think perfect eyes will make people better looking. Maybe poor eyesight does.  

  Although, I have a feeling there won’t be ugly people in the new world.  Jehovah has given us the ability to see the beauty within a person. When that happens, although they may be just average,  the person becomes very  attractive. For example,  you may think I’m crazy but I think pregnant women are very attractivel. I recall a waitress that I wouldn’t consider very attractive. I later seen her pregnant...and I thought she was suddenly very attractive (not in a sexual way).

 

 

Thanks for the post. : - )

Do you think, then, that even in the NW there'll always be men and women who look better than others?

Of course, how we rate them as humans will surely change.

Now many people praise good-looking people, even if they are not so nice. 

But will the objective measurement be still there?

[Pjdriver]

33 minutes ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

Thanks for the post. : - )

Do you think, then, that even in the NW there'll always be men and women who look better than others?

Of course, how we rate them as humans will surely change.

Now many people praise good-looking people, even if they are not so nice. 

But will the objective measurement be still there?

It's not just being beautiful or not so beautiful. There’s a very broad range of beautiful people who are each unique. Some stand out more but that doesn’t make the others ugly. I don’t think we’re all going to be uniform in appearance. Jehovah surely didn’t rubber stamp us. Variety was the intent.

 

Speaking of the new world, I don’t really think we’ll be as focused on physical beauty as we are now. I think judging the book by it’s cover is more a result of imperfection, IMO The world is literally obsessed with looks....young girls are especially affected by it.  I think in there new world, everyone will be be beautiful in there own way. This will make them attractive. I don’t think people have disfigured features, although sometimes that can be attractive to some. So it may happen. No birth defects or handicaps, certainly. 

Quote

Concerning physical beauty, some say: “If you’ve got it, flaunt it!” In cultures where such thinking is common, adolescent and even preadolescent girls learn to view themselves “as objects of others’ desires . . . , to be looked at and evaluated for their appearance,” says a report by the APA. That view can be most harmful. In fact, it has become a major social and health concern that, according to the APA, may lead to “a host of negative emotional consequences.” These may include anxiety and “even self-disgust . . . , eating disorders, low self-esteem, and depression or depressed mood.”  w16 No. 4 p. 14-15

Quote

Do not let your adornment be external—the braiding of hair and the wearing of gold ornaments+ or fine clothing— 4 but let it be the secret person of the heart in the incorruptible adornment of the quiet and mild spirit,+ which is of great value in the eyes of God

The more we become like Jehovah....the less important physical things will be and the more important and valuable will be the inner person. 

 

Quote

“Charm may be false, and beauty may be fleeting, but the woman who fears Jehovah will be praised.”—Proverbs 31:30.

It's interesting how Jehovah has put into us the ability to see beauty on both the inside and outside.....but let’s not forget which is more important.

 

Inner Beauty is much more important. It’s the one that can actually get better with age....🤓 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Pjdriver

[Thesauron]

Someone has to be the most beautiful. And who knows better than Jehovah? Then again, it is quite possible it is an expression meaning more like, “he was extremely handsome” or alike.

[carlos]

4 hours ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

But sometimes I come to kind of doubt as to its universal objectivity when it comes to looks-describing verses.

I think you may be overthinking this, Timothy, as usual.

 

I suscribe every point in Burt's post above. There are some men and women who are generally considered as handsome or gorgeous. Of course that doesn't mean they're everyone's cup of tea. Most people say I am extremely attractive but you may disagree.

 

Something else that needs to be taken into account is that Israelites, as all Mediterranean peoples, constantly resort to exaggeration in their speech just to highlight their point. So "he was the most handsome man in Israel" simply means he was very handsome. And "he stood head and shoulders taller than all the people" means he was taller than most people. Absolutes in the Bible rarely are genuine absolutes. There's no need to take them literally.

 

As for beauty in the new world, of course all ugliness produced by physical defects will be removed, but other than that I don't think there is a single standard of beauty. Jehovah loves variety. What is nicer, dark skin or white skin? Round eyes or almond eyes? Blond, black, brown or red hair? They all are beautiful, although every one of us feel more attracted to one or the other.

 

One last factor is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Nobody sees his own mom ugly. When you first meet a person you may be impressed by their beauty or (in some cases) their lack thereof. But as you get to know that person better, you get used to their looks and they no longer look so nice or so ugly. When you look at them you see the person they are inside, not just their outer appearance. In the new world we will have time to get to know everybody in depth.

 

[coolbrz731]

7 minutes ago, carlos said:

Nobody sees his own mom ugly.

I'd like to invite you to talk to Californians who live in the ghetto or the barrio(mexican ghetto).  😆

[carlos]

7 minutes ago, coolbrz731 said:

I'd like to invite you to talk to Californians who live in the ghetto or the barrio(mexican ghetto).  😆

They think their mom is ugly?

[coolbrz731]

5 minutes ago, carlos said:

They think their mom is ugly?

When I went to school, yes.  They were realistic, and they'd talk about their mom like a dog if she really ticked them off.  But, only them, and maybe a few close friends could say stuff like that.  Anyone else, them's fighting words.  They wouldn't deny it, but you're still going to pay for talking about their mom.

[Qapla]

When people think about who they would like to meet in the NS of the people from Bible times - many name people like Moses, Noah and David ... but think about what it will be like meeting Job's daughters  ". . .No women in all the land were as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father gave them an inheritance along with their brothers." (Job 42:15)

 

All we have to do is be there and we will see what Moses was calling beautiful.

 

When it comes to these last days - somehow, I think we can find other things to study, think about, worry about and/or discuss than what the Bible writes called "beautiful looks" - is it really that important what we may or may not view as beauty in the NS when we are living through a pandemic, the KOS and KON are pushing and shoving, and the days are short that we should expend so much time and effort wondering about trivia that may not be all that important once we get there?

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Qapla

[Pjdriver]

1 hour ago, carlos said:

One last factor is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Nobody sees his own mom ugly.   

I remember a couple had a baby and it was a tough birth with forceps etc.... The baby came out looking like he went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson. Today he is a good looking young man. Nevertheless, I recall them putting his baby picture in a prominent place and I looked at it he looked like a space alien. Not pretty. But their love for that baby was so strong...., he was the most beautiful thing in the world. 

 

1 hour ago, carlos said:

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Or we could say that “Beauty is in the eyes of the beer-holder”.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Leonard Match Valid]

7 hours ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

Eles eram objetivamente bonitos só então?
Ou universalmente objetivo? (O que significa que eles sempre serão considerados bonitos agora aqui ou no NW)

 

Embora os escritores fossem inspirados, eles só conheciam o antigo mundo de Israel... e sua antiga visão estética.
Não é errado eles simplesmente afirmarem como as pessoas naquela época se sentiam sobre sua aparência.

Embora a Bíblia seja um livro espiritual, ela ainda tem partes onde a aparência das pessoas é explicada... geralmente para dar uma compreensão do contexto
ou do porquê de certas coisas acontecerem. (Por que Saul foi escolhido. Por que as três filhas de Jó eram lindas porque elas eram... Abençoadas por Jeová? 
A propósito, a boa aparência é uma bênção de Jeová? Por que Sara estava em perigo)

Mas às vezes fico meio em dúvida quanto à sua objetividade universal quando se trata de versos que descrevem a aparência.
Sarah era realmente tão bonita naquela idade que corria perigo? 
(Ela pode ter sido mais perfeita do que as mulheres agora naquela época, no entanto) 

Ou
Quando leio versos como 1 Samuel 9:2 (Ele tinha um filho chamado Saul, que era jovem e bonito - não havia homem entre os israelitas mais bonito do que ele - e era mais alto que todo o povo.)

Eu sou como .. o que ..???? Como isso é possível? Mais bonito? Se fosse, ele era o mais alto, eu entenderia melhor. 
Como você pode medir a aparência de alguém? Se alguém é mais bonito e menos bonito. (Eu precisaria de um dicionário hebraico para o versículo acima)
 

E quando leio versículos onde se diz que as filhas de Jó são lindas... mais do que todas as mulheres em toda a terra... o quê?? Agora estou muito curioso.

Provavelmente deveríamos ir para NW para realmente ver... mas então nossos 'olhos' perfeitos não serão capazes de dizer as diferenças.
Além disso, todos terão uma pele perfeita... saúde perfeita... então não tenho certeza se poderei ficar genuinamente surpresa quando finalmente conhecer Ker'en-hap'puch.

Desculpe se você acha que este post é estúpido, desculpe por tomar seu tempo .. : - ) 
 

Why didn't you see my brother this:

https://pt.quora.com/Quem-é-a-princesa-mais-feia-do-mundo

"This is Princess Zahra, full name Zahra Khanom Tadj-Saltaneh (1883 - January 25, 1936; Persian تاج‌السلطنه). Former princess of what is now Iran

It is said that she had around 145 suitors, some who even killed themselves for her. But this is something we cannot know for sure. What is certain is that, she had 4 children and was married to a noble sultan (named Sardar Hassan Shojah Saltaneh). And she was one of the first noble women to ask for a divorce (it was something very impactful for the cultural, social and geographical context of the time).

Zahra was able to inspire not only women, but also writers and artists of all kinds, to the point of becoming the muse of the famous Persian poet Aref Qazvini, who dedicated the poem "Ey Ta" to her.

Zahra was a painter, writer and art lover in all its forms.

In addition, Zahra was a proponent of feminism, in 1910, she founded Anjoman Horriyyat Nsevan, an association that intended to fight for women's rights in Iran.

She also organized literal salons every week to talk about culture and was the first oriental princess to decide to dress in western clothes, refusing to wear the hijab (the typical attire).

Now you will surely look at her with different eyes.
 

[Pjdriver]

3 hours ago, Leonard Match Valid said:

 

Very Manly looking.  But that’s just me....She must of had a terrific personality!!!! 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Pjdriver

[hatcheckgirl]

So…. Now I wish I’d kept my monobrow…..🤔

[Pjdriver]

1 minute ago, hatcheckgirl said:

So…. Now I wish I’d kept my monobrow…..🤔

 Different cultures are interesting. I don’t know but perhaps the unibrow was attractive at that time and place. It wouldn’t work so well for women in my neck of the woods.

The media presents what they feel is the “ideal". The ideal is not the reality for most, and when we can’t meet up to it....we can be affected negatively, especially young ones.

 

Beauty products are easily a multi-Billion dollar market. They just want your money. They don’t care how all the advertising etc....affects the psyche. As long it moves you to part with your money.

We know that being a little over weight was more attractive to many at one time. Now thin is in. Of course we try to not pay  a lot of attention to every fad. Some are ok, some not. Our looks are like a cover to the book. Important to a point. But it’s what’s inside that really matters.

 

One thing is for certain. Although Jehovah mentions the beauty of a number of persons in the Bible......Not one of them won his favor due to their good looks. 🤓

[Qapla]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

One thing is for certain. Although Jehovah mentions the beauty of a number of persons in the Bible......Not one of them won his favor due to their good looks

[Hotteok]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

 

 

One thing is for certain. Although Jehovah mentions the beauty of a number of persons in the Bible......Not one of them won his favor due to their good looks. 🤓

Yes to Jehovah they are just skulls.. bones..muscles.. 

[Pjdriver]

13 hours ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

Yes to Jehovah they are just skulls.. bones..muscles.. 

Jehovah does see the beauty even physically apparently from the number of times he makes mention of their physical appearance... he just never judges them based on their looks.....but he obviously notices it.  I think good looks were mentioned in regard to Sarah, Rachel, Job’s daughters, Esther, Saul, David, and Bathsheba, Thats about 16 people mentioned as having great looks. Also, I can imagine Adam and Eve were no doubt beautifully formed as well.

So Jehovah does sees the beauty physical  in humans....and we know that the angels see it as well.  Recall the “sons of God” noticed that the women were good looking. But this turned sexual. I always thought this was strange since they are a whole different life form than us. If we could see an angel in his true form...would we find them sexually attractive?   

Evidently they are neither male nor female.......How does that work?   Evidently it is an “unnatural” desire.  

Edited March 4, 2022 by Pjdriver

[Thesauron]

Jehovah does see the beauty even physically apparently from the number of times he makes mention of their physical appearance... he just never judges them based on their looks.....but he obviously notices it.  I think good looks were mentioned in regard to Sarah, Rachel, Job’s daughters, Esther, Saul, David, and Bathsheba, Thats about 16 people mentioned as having great looks. Also, I can imagine Adam and Eve were no doubt beautifully formed as well.
So Jehovah does sees the beauty physical  in humans....and we know that the angels see it as well.  Recall the “sons of God” noticed that the women were good looking. But this turned sexual. I always thought this was strange since they are a whole different life form than us. If we could see an angel in his true form...would we find them sexually attractive?   
Evidently they are neither male nor female.......How does that work?   Evidently it is an “unnatural” desire.  

Regarding angels being sexually attracted to humans despite being a different life form. I see it more of a power trip than anything else. Like humans having sex with animals. Twisted, wrong and unwanted. But it happens.

[Hope]

One universal quality that is beautiful is good skin. Think of the gorgeous skin three-year-olds have - glowing, flawless, smooth, wrinkle-free. There is no makeup to make a young child more attractive. 

 

Jehovah promises fresher skin than that to everyone. If you imagine how pretty much any facial shape or size with beautiful skin- that will improve *anyone's* appearance, don't you think? ☺️