Report about Norway/Sweden

[MJ1]

ongoing case in Sweden.

https://bitterwinter.org/shunning-subsidies-and-the-secular-state-jehovahs-witnesses-in-the-courts-of-norway-and-sweden/

 

I find it odd that the world finds it odd when our organisation disciplines its members. If you work in an office and get caught stealing what happens..do you not fired ?  Rest assured you dont get an invite to the next office party. One famous actor accused of something , was brought to trial in usa and found not guilty  - then brought to trial in uk and also found not guilty. The reporter said of his case, that in the three years of this legal process and I quote "he had been shunned by Hollywood"

Edited 10 hours ago by MJ1
spelling

[secondofseven]

The world finds it odd when "friendships are conditional" which they are in a lot of ways, even for them.

But for them the choice of religion rarely is a condition to end it, while for us it often is.

I think the case hinges on a couple of other points tho:

 

- Are we entitled to funding by the government if our values don't align with them? Norway constitution / laws says YES, we are, despite verdicts from lower courts. If I may guess the effect: this will stimulate the legislative branch of government to change to the laws. In a way this is fair. If a religion doesn't deserve funding according to Ceasar, then those rules need to apply to all 150 religion (that are on the register for funding).

I don't mind particularly about this, because for a lot of us it was a complete surprise that we receive government funding in SOME countries. From a global perspective its the exception, rather then the norm.

 

- Do we have the right to do psychological harm to minors? They didn't find evidence so it was a moot point. But we all know examples from past 5 decades or so, of young children getting baptised (9, 10, 11 year old), which left the organisation by the age of 16, 17 or 18. Some of them have not spoken with their parents in years. True it is a grey area now, to what extend we keep a relationship. But all in all a lot of those minors were not aware of the long term effects of breaking a commitment, made at a young age.

[MJ1]

yes ...recent zone visit in uk speaker mentioned about 8 year old regular pioneer - one elder asked how did 8 year get baptized????

[Jim Jam]

The trial did however prompt the Slave to review the df practice, so it’s not entirely bad thing. 

 

Jehovah has sometimes used ennemies of his people to punish or correct things. 

 

And in our modern history it has happened as well. I think opposers are a necessary part of the ecosystem until 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Jim Jam

[MelP]

6 hours ago, MJ1 said:

 

 

I find it odd that the world finds it odd when our organisation disciplines its members. If you work in an office and get caught stealing what happens..do you not fired ?  Rest assured you dont get an invite to the next office party.

 

I agree with this.

Many want to frame conformity as a “bad” thing, but is it always?

 

Societies in general tend to shun ones who won’t conform to a basic set of rules or structure.  And when it comes to clubs/groups/workplace/religion, why be a group at all if you can’t set some standard on what you want and then ask others to agree to them to be a part of this group? 
 

I think this all well and good when it comes to adults who can make decisions and understand consequences. It may be a little different for children which is why some changes have been made. 
 

I was 15 at baptism. It was a very common thing where I was coming up to be baptized anywhere from, like,  mid to late teens. Is that an adult? Eh. Maybe. Like many I’m not willing to make a bunch of rules. But legally somewhere a line must be drawn. I doubt the branches and the governing body want to wade into THAT.  They aren’t going to tell us what to do with our children and their dedication to Jehovah. But 8 is YOUNG. 13 is ehhhhh. 15, 16 and so on, now you might begin to see some ability to understand exactly what you are doing. And times are changing. Kids just aren’t as mentally developed as they have been. And I know that’s a whole other debate and I’m not even sure how I totally feel about that but it is besides the point.

 

You might could make an argument that the punishment is harsh for a child, but you can’t convince me of that with an adult. Please don’t mistake me, I feel really terrible when someone sins and then receives discipline. There are times when I feel sorry for them. But also times when I DO NOT.

 

Here’s another thing I think about with regard to children, or minors who are baptized: 

 

And of course, how that is defined is all relative based on what country you live in, your culture and so on.

 

But most young ones who are baptized are at HOME. Directly under their parents care. So being removed from the congregation doesn’t mean the parents no longer speak to the child or instruct them. Contrarily, they might even get MORE attention. True, other unpleasant things happen outside of the home. They lose intimate contact with friends and so forth, but don’t the parents of those other friends have a right to make rules for associations? I don’t know, I just don’t see it as a bad thing, maybe just unpleasant. Why can’t we have a set of standards though? Some sort of framework of expectation? 
 

I didn’t fully read the whole article, just skimming, but a lot of these things are taken up by politicians and political movements as sort of a civil rights kinda thing and harming of certain “communities”. I side eye much of it. 
 

If you want to talk about the legality of “shunning” of minors and tax exemption, then okay. But don’t turn it into a struggle session with people talking about their feelings and how harmed they were.

 

Maybe I’m wrong or whatever but that’s my take.

 

Melanie

[mario080]

Recently, I saw this on my Facebook feed, though I didn’t read the full article because I’m not a subscriber, and it instantly made me think of being removed from the congregation.

 

Sometimes, people are very harsh in their judgment and cut ties with immediate family over a comment they dislike. Rarely are they criticized for it. In our case, however, we follow a meticulous process designed to help the individual, where removal is really the last resort, yet we still face heavy criticism.