Russia Moves to Declare the Bible "Extremist"

[Hannah]

"And they shall know that I am Jehovah....."

many kings in the past learned it by being sweapt away forever and ever 

we only remember them as an example of stupidity and pride.

 

 

 

[Omoyeme]

From jw-russia.org:  https://jw-russia.org/news/17081016-202.html

 

August 10, 2017

In Vyborg court in the Case of the Prohibition of the Bible Interrogated Specialist Lexicologist

 

Quote

August 9, 2017 in the Vyborg City Court hearing on the case of the prohibition of the Bible lasted 11 hours! The case is heard by Judge Dmitry Grishin.

 

The process attracted many observers, including journalists and foreign diplomats. The hall could accommodate only a small part of the visitors, but the judge allowed to leave the door to the audience open, so that listeners, standing in the corridor, could follow the process. The organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses Germany (the publisher and producer of the Bible), the United States of America (the copyright holder for the translation) and Finland (the carrier whose batch of the Bibles were seized) are involved in the process as stakeholders.

 

Since we are talking about such a respectable and culturally-forming book as the Bible, an authoritative scholar in the field of text expertise was invited to participate in the case as an expert. Anatoly Nikolayevich Baranov, Ph.D., professor, head of the experimental lexicography of the Institute of the Russian Language of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Author of the textbook "Linguistic examination of the text." For almost 2 hours the scientist answered the questions of the parties and the court. Among other things, he explained to the court the nuances associated with the transfer. For example, what is meant by the term "Bible"? Can the Bible be considered a Russian translation? Is it possible to establish the identity of the translation by comparing it with another translation? Although the answers to these questions seem self-evident, they are very important for establishing all the facts on this case,

 

The continuation of the hearing is scheduled for 9:30 on August 16, 2017. The court has scheduled a survey of a specialist in religion studies.

 

[davies]

Jesus said that the goodnews of the Kingdom will be preached and then the end will come...so for us the work CANNOT stop without divine intervention...so ban, shut down, declare extremist or whatever the work still moves on...I wonder if they going to ban the soft copies in pples phones...lol just athought

[Sheep]

1 hour ago, davies said:

Jesus said that the goodnews of the Kingdom will be preached and then the end will come...so for us the work CANNOT stop without divine intervention...so ban, shut down, declare extremist or whatever the work still moves on...I wonder if they going to ban the soft copies in pples phones...lol just athought

You're right, Victor. The work will not stop just because some so-called "experts" (whatever those are) don't agree with the NWT text. Their opinions do not change the purpose of the Almighty God, and His work will continue as predestined.

 

Thank you for your very first post on JWTalk!

[Bluebell]

The trial of the Bible continues....

 

09:30

The third floor of the court building is filled with people, almost everyone realizes that they can not enter the hall and will listen to what is happening while standing in the corridor. Workers of the court bring additional benches.

09:50

The hearing was declared open. The party of the plaintiff is represented by 2 employees of the Prosecutor's Office in the rank of major and lieutenant-colonel. From the defendant 3 lawyers: Alexander Dyubin and Maxim Novakov (representing the Finnish organization of Jehovah's Witnesses), lawyer Anton Bogdanov (has powers of attorney from 4 foreign organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses). From the temporary storage warehouse, where the detained batch of the Bible is kept, there are 2 representatives.

10am

The court refused to petition the European Association of Christian Jehovah's Witnesses to videotape in order to inform the followers of this religion about the process.

10:10

From the stage of motions, the court proceeds to examine the evidence. A specialist religious scholar is invited to the hall for interrogation. He is a candidate of philosophical sciences, doctor of historical sciences, professor in the Department of Religious Studies Mikhail Ivanovich Odintsov, chairman of the Russian Society of Religious Scientists, author of 400 religious publications, including 30 monographs. His experience of religious studies is 35 years. Themes of his theses are connected with Orthodoxy and state-church relations, scientific works concern Orthodoxy, Old Believers, Judaism, Islam, Salvation Army, Adventism.

10:20

Lawyer Dyubin asks a question about the methods of religious expert analysis, and also about what the Bible is like a phenomenon.

10:25

Mikhail Odintsov explains that the concept of the "Bible" was fixed to the IV century AD, the names "Scripture" and "Holy Scripture" are quite appropriate. The generally recognized canon of the Bible includes 66 books, in some churches this canon is broader. Odintsov informs the court that every church has its own edition of the Bible, which is considered the best or approved for worship. For example, Catholicism has the greatest respect for the Latin Bible, in Orthodoxy, the approved edition is currently the Synodal edition of the Bible of 1876. Before that, versions of the Church Slavonic Bible were used.

10:30

Dyubin asks about whether there is a standard of the Bible? Odintsov emphasizes that religious studies do not deal with the establishment of standards, but describe religion in the state in which it is at a certain point in time. As for the original text of the Bible, science constantly works to establish the source text, knowledge in this area is constantly replenished thanks to the finds of ancient manuscripts.

10:40

The Bible, which is used in Orthodoxy, has been translated from the ancient Greek text. For Old Testament texts written in Hebrew, such a translation is secondary.

At the request of Dyubin Odintsov calls available translations of the Bible in modern Russian, including confessional.

10:45

Dyubin asks who has the right to translate the Bible. Odintsov explains that the science of religious studies welcomes translations of the Bible. From a scientific point of view, it does not matter what kind of worldview the translator takes. Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to translate the Bible.

[Bluebell]

10:55

Dyubin asks the specialist what the word "Jehovah" means. Odintsov explains that this is one of the names of God used in the Bible, he confirms that this name is used 10 times in the Synodal edition. Odintsov is given the Synodal Bible available in the materials of the case, he searches for texts from Genesis 22:14 and Exodus 15: 3 and reads them.

[Bluebell]

11:25

After a 20-minute technical break, the court resumes interrogation of a specialist. Does "The Holy Scripture - Translation of a New World" cease to be a Bible because it uses the name Jehovah? Odintsov claims that he does not.

11:28

The specialist is asked to comment on the fragment from Kryukova's examination, which states that using the name "Jehovah" a dominant concept is changing, leading away from the concept of the unknowable "God" to the personified "Jehovah". Odintsov notes that we are talking about the same God, so the concept does not change. And the quoted fragment is a theological reasoning.

11:32

Dyubin asks to comment on differences in the title of the biblical books between the Synodal edition and the "Translation of the New World", for example, "Chronicles" and "Letopis". Odintsov explains that the difference goes back to different traditions. The Synodal translation is oriented to the Septuagint (the Old Greek translation of the Old Testament), and the "Translation of the New World" is focused on the Masoretic text.

11:35

Is the text of the Bible, published by Jehovah's Witnesses, differs from other Russian translations of the Bible that Odintsov mentioned earlier? Odintsov argues that in general there are no differences between all these translations of the Bible.

11:40

Dyubin asks again to present the Orthodox Bible and "Translation of the New World" to the specialist and draws attention to the fact that in one edition all the verses of the Bible are separate paragraphs, and in the other they are combined into semantic paragraphs. Is it normal? Odintsov recalls that in ancient manuscripts there was no numbering at all and there was not even a space between words. Each publishing house makes its own decision, and the breakdown into semantic paragraphs only helps the reader.

12:10

Dyubin asks Odintsov a cascade of questions: how do the Witnesses relate to the overthrow of the constitutional order, the violent change of power? Odintsov strongly affirms: "Negative." Do you know about the participation of Jehovah's Witnesses in national, racial, religious strife? No. On calls for genocide, deportation? No.

12:15

Is faith in God's own chosen character inherent in all Christian religions? Yes. And the conviction that the creeds of other religions are wrong, misguided? Yes. Are there any religions other than Jehovah's Witnesses who worship Jehovah? Yes.

12:20

What is eschatology? Odintsov explains that this doctrine is in the future destinies of the world. Is there such a doctrine in other religions? Odintsov says that such a teaching exists in almost all religions, including Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam.

12:24

Lawyer Dyubin asks the last question: "Translation of the new world" - is the Bible or not? "The Bible!" Exclaims Odintsov.

12:25

The question is posed by the lawyer Novakov. He asks Odintsov to present at once three translations of the Bible, available in the case: Synodal, Contemporary and "Translation of the New World". He asks Odintsov aloud to read out of all three translations the 23rd Psalm (in the Synodal edition, the 22nd Psalm). After reading, he asks Odintsov if he sees differences in these fragments in general and in particulars. No, Odintsov believes that the texts differ in vocabulary, but in meaning identical.

12:30

Lawyer Bogdanov specifies in which languages the Bible was originally written. Odintsov reports that the Old Testament is written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and the New Testament is written in Ancient Greek. The Old Testament part was later translated into the Ancient Greek language. Masoretic texts, taken as a basis for the New World Translation, are texts in the original language.

12:45

Bogdanov asks whether Odintsov knows the works of the Orthodox translators Pavsky and Makarii. Yes, Odintsov knows them. When asked by the lawyer how they passed on the name of God, the expert answers: "Jehovah."

12:50

The court announces a break until 14:00.

[Bluebell]

14:20

The hearings are resumed. Questions to Odintsov continues to ask the lawyer Bogdanov. The specialist is given a brochure "Science - instead of the Bible?" (The subject of the dispute in this process), as well as three translations of the Bible (Synodal, Contemporary and "New World Translation"). The brochure quotes "Do not Kill." The specialist is asked to explain the link that appears next to this text: "Exodus 20:13". What does it mean? Odintsov explains that this is a reference to the Bible. He is asked to read Exodus 20:13 from all three Bible translations available in the Bible. It turns out that this phrase is everywhere translated completely identical, which the expert confirms. After that, Odintsov is handed over the expertise of Kryukova, which says that the pamphlet "Science - instead of the Bible?" "Does not contain quotations from the Bible, Tanakh, Koran and Ganjur." It is obvious to the expert that this is the wrong conclusion of Kryukova.

14:25

In the pamphlet "Science - instead of the Bible?" There is the phrase "science is not all-powerful". The question to Odintsov: "Is this phrase propaganda of enmity toward scientists?" - "No, of course!"

14:35

In the brochure "How to improve health. 5 simple rules "(the subject of the dispute in this process) is quoted" And no one will say: I am sick "with the reference in brackets: Isaiah 33:24. Odintsov immediately understands that this is a reference to the Bible. He is again asked to read this verse from all three translations of the Bible. In the Synodal edition, the verse reads: "None of the inhabitants will say: I'm sick." In the Modern translation this text is transmitted: "None of those living there will say: I'm sick." Question to Odintsov: you agree with the conclusion of the expert Kryukova that the brochure "How to improve health. 5 simple rules "does not contain quotes from the Bible? It is quite clear that the reverse is true.

14:45

The article "Portraits from the Past: Galileo" from the above-mentioned brochure is discussed. Reminding the court that the visiting specialist is a doctor of historical sciences, he asks him whether the information contained in the article is consistent with the historical point of view. (The article refers to the conflicts that Galileo had with the representatives of the Catholic Church in connection with his scientific discoveries, as well as the subsequent repentance of the leadership of the Catholic Church in this.) Odintsov believes that these are well-known facts from the textbook on the history of the Middle Ages for 6th grade. Contrary to the conclusions of the expert Kryukova, this information, according to Odintsov, can not contain propaganda of hatred and enmity.

[Bluebell]

14:55

Lawyer Bogdanov asks Odintsov what he knows about the history of Jehovah's Witnesses in Hitler's Germany. Odintsov reports that the faithful of this religion refused to take up arms and as a result went to concentration camps. The court: "How do you know this?" Odintsov explains that this is known from the scientific literature, as well as archival documents of the Third Reich.

3pm

Bogdanov asks Odintsov to explain the contents of his book "The Council of Ministers decides." Odintsov said that the matter concerns the Council of Ministers of the USSR, which decided to evict all Jehovah's Witnesses from the western parts of the USSR to Siberia. This was part of the atheistic policy of the state.

[Bluebell]

15:05

Representative Dyubin pays attention to the expertise of Kryukova, a part devoted to religious analysis. There are methods of religious analysis, such as "semantic," "syntactic," and so on. Are these methods religious studies? Odintsov notes that these methods are relevant to linguistics, but not to religious studies.

15:10

The right to ask questions goes to the prosecutors. What is your attitude to the representatives of Jehovah's Witnesses? Are you acquainted with the believers? Odintsov said that he repeatedly touched them in the framework of his scientific and human rights activities. Odintsov said that it is impossible to study religions without direct contact with believers in principle.

15:20

The prosecutor clarifies with the specialist his words that Jehovah's Witnesses belong to one of the world's religions. Which one? Odintsov explains that there are three world religions: Christianity, Buddhism and Islam. Jehovah's Witnesses refer to Christianity.

[Bluebell]

all sounds too good.....but at the end the Judge will have a visitor : you have a nice family? good income? you like your job?

.....eeehhh yes......then you know what the verdict should be...

[Bluebell]

3:30 pm

The prosecutor is trying to find out whether the Bible itself should indicate that the text is approved and is perceived by a certain religion as a sacred text. Odintsov explains that often on the publishing page information about this is present, but this is not necessary.

15:40

Lawyer Bogdanov draws attention to the text in the foreword to the Synodal edition, where it is noted that in the test there are "words added for clarity and communication of speech." Does Odintsov consider this a normal phenomenon for sacred texts? Yes, it's perfectly normal to clarify the "dark places".

15:45

The interrogation of Mikhail Odintsov is over. The court announces a 10-minute technical break.

 

4pm

The meeting resumes. Representative Novakov, relying on the Russian judicial practice, in the case related to the Koran, asks the court to compare the semantic content of selected fragments of the Bible from the three available translations of the Bible.

16:05

The Chairman read out Genesis 22:14 out of the three translations of the Bible aloud. In each of them, the expression "Jehovah-Ira" is used. The presiding officer reads Exodus 3:14, 15, 16, 18 of the three translations of the Bible. It is noteworthy that in the Modern translation in these verses the name of God in the form of Jehovah is used several times.

[cricket246]

I think they cooked their own goose

[Bluebell]

16:15

The presiding officer read aloud Exodus 34: 5, 6. This fragment uses the name of Jehovah God in all three translations. On this court asks Novakov to explain what he wants to clarify, drawing the attention of the court to these fragments. Novakov refers to the expertise of Kryukova, which says that "Translation of the New World" should not be considered a Bible, because it uses the name of God in the form of "Jehovah." The correlation of fragments in the three Bibles shows that the experts' conclusion is false.

16:20

The judge refers to the text from Isaiah 42: 8 in all those translations. "Translation of the New World": "I am Jehovah, this is my name"; The Synodal translation: "I am the Lord, this is my name"; Modern translation: "I am the Lord is my name." Novakov points to the false conclusion of the expert Kryukova, who argues that using the personal name of God turns God into a kind of pagan "personified deity" and that as a result, the "Translation of the New World" can not be considered a Bible. Novakov shows that according to the Bible, God has a name. The court reads Matthew 6:11 ("Let your name be sanctified") from the three translations of the Bible.

[Bluebell]

4:30 pm

Novakov goes on to the second argument of the expert Kryukova on why the "Translation of the New World" is not, in her opinion, the Bible. This is her statement that the "Translation of the New World" allegedly changed the texts in such a way as to refute the doctrine of the Trinity. At the request of Novakov, the presiding judge reads a fragment from 1 Corinthians 11: 3 of the three translations of the Bible. Verses are identical in meaning. Novakov explains that the phrase "God is the head for Christ" refutes the doctrine of the Trinity, namely, the provision that Christ is equal to God.

 

16:35

The presiding officer reads John 14:28 from all three translations of the Bible. The words of Jesus "My Father is Greater Than Me" refute the doctrine of the Trinity, namely the provision that Christ is equal to God. However, this text is identical in meaning in all translations of the Bible. There is no reason to say that this text is fraudulent in the "Translation of the New World", so we can conclude that the conclusion Kryukova false.

16:40

The presiding officer reads a few texts only from the "Translation of the New World", including from Romans of the 13th chapter and Colossians of the third chapter. Novakov pays attention to noble moral lessons, alien to extremism, which are contained in this Bible.

16:42

Suddenly, the judge's gaze falls on Colossians 3:22. He reads it aloud: "Slaves, be obedient to your masters" - and asks the representative to comment on this text for the court. Novakov says that he can not give an interpretation and suggests that the court simply compare this text in all three translations. The court makes sure that the contents and meaning of these texts are identical in all translations.

[Bluebell]

16:45

Novakov draws the attention of the court to the preface to the "Translation of the New World." It refutes the statement made in the examination of Kryukova that Jehovah's Witnesses allegedly deny Christ as the Redeemer of mankind. In the first paragraph of the preface it says: "The Bible reveals that God lovingly took care of delivering the fallen mankind from death, giving as his sacrificial offering his Son, Jesus Christ."

16:58

Representative Dyubin draws the court's attention to a number of mutually exclusive statements in the examination of Kryukova. For example, in the text of the expertise there are several phrases like: "The difference between the translation of the new world from other translations of the Bible ..." These phrases indicate that the expert considers the "Translation of the New World" the Bible. However, in the operative part Kryukova argues the exact opposite: "The translation of the new world" allegedly "is not the Bible."

17:05

Dyubin gives examples of incorrect citation in the examination of Kryukova.

[Bluebell]

btw ......Alexander Dyubin and Maxim Novakov and  Anton Bogdanov = our side!

other's are on the dark side...

 

Mikhail Odintsov from earlier was not a witness but a Bible expert

Edited August 16, 2017 by Samira

[Bluebell]

17:35 The court resumed the meeting. Prosecutor Zhukov explains that the review of the contents of the pamphlet is not enough to say that there is no extremism in it. He believes that all questions can be addressed to an expert who found in it signs of extremism. The prosecutor's office exercised its right to appeal to the court, relying on the available expert opinion.

[Bluebell]

If they find our Bible extremist......that means their Bible is also.

Will this trigger an attack in Russia against all Christian religions?

[Bluebell]

17:45 Advocate Bogdanov draws attention to the quote quoted in the pamphlet, "Let's, and they will give you" from the Gospel of Luke. He asked if the prosecutor's office checked whether the brochure contained a quote from the Bible. The prosecutor claims that the prosecutor's office is not authorized to check quotes. 

 

Then Bogdanov proposes to the prosecutor's office to read directly from the Synodal translation of the Bible this quotation, which in this translation sounds "Give, and it will be given to you". The presiding officer helps the prosecutor to find a quote. 

 

Attorney Anna Smalkova (major), representing the Leningrad-Finland transport prosecutor's office, declares that this side was presented to the court by interested parties, which means that there are doubts that this is indeed the Synodal Bible. "Even if there is a coincidence of quotations, it still can not be considered a quote from the Bible! - says Prosecutor Smalkov.

[Bluebell]

18:15

Representative Dyubin reviews another controversial brochure called "The Bible and its main theme." Thanks to his brief review of the pamphlet, it becomes clear that, firstly, the brochure contains a lot of quotations from the Bible, and secondly, the pamphlet is far from any incitement of hostility.

18:23

Discussing the chapter on prophecies about the future, a representative of Dyubin asks the court to read out a quote from Daniel 2:44. The court reads this text from various translations of the Bible, making sure of their identity. Representative Dyubin explains that this is the same eschatology (the doctrine of the future destinies of the world), about which a specialist in religious studies Odintsov said earlier in the courtroom. Dyubin draws attention to the fact that Daniel's prophetic words speak about the actions of God and the Heavenly Kingdom established by him. This fragment does not contain any calls for any actions to overthrow earthly governments committed by people.

[Bluebell]

"Discussing the chapter on prophecies about the future, a representative of Dyubin asks the court to read out a quote from Daniel 2:44

..............Dyubin draws attention to the fact that Daniel's prophetic words speak about the actions of God and the Heavenly Kingdom established by him"

 

 

our solicitors are so brave......they must have complete confident in Jehovah....

It could be that our solicitors have been told that if they see it turning against us

to give them also a warning that they are taking their stand against God's Kingdom.

[Bluebell]

18:30

Representative Dyubin draws attention to the existing court decision in Petrozavodsk. The Karelian court refused the prosecutor's office to recognize the brochure "The Bible and its main theme" as extremist material. However, by law, you can not go to court with a lawsuit, which already has a court decision that came into force. Moreover, in both cases, the prosecutor's office was the plaintiff. "It turns out," Dyubin dismisses with her hands, "the prosecutor's office was turned down in one court, then she turned to another with a suit ?!"

18:45

Representative Novakov draws attention to the provision of Article 61 of the Civil Procedure Code of the Russian Federation, according to which "circumstances recognized by the court as generally known, do not need to prove". He provides documented extracts from several authoritative catalogs, reference books and scientific publications confirming that the "Translation of the New World" performed by Jehovah's Witnesses is a well-known translation of the Bible.

 

18:55

The court announces a 15-minute break.

[Bluebell]

forgot:

 

17:55

Lawyer Bogdanov begins to review the brochure "How to improve health. 5 simple rules ", reading headlines, subtitles and fragments from the articles.

6pm

The court is wondering whether the lawyer intends to go through every page of the publication. Bogdanov believes that it would be unfair to condemn a person without letting him speak. The same applies to brochures. Bogdanov continues to review the brochure. Among other things, this brochure contains an article about Galileo Galilee. The judge follows the copy of the brochure, noting the quotes from the Bible in the pamphlet or references to it, such as Proverbs 12:18 and Jeremiah 10:23. One of the links he opens in all three translations of the Bible.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Samira

[Bluebell]

"The judge follows the copy of the brochure, noting the quotes from the Bible in the pamphlet or references to it, such as Proverbs 12:18 and Jeremiah 10:23. One of the links he opens in all three translations of the Bible."

 

if this is not a Bible study ...I don't know what it is...