Statistics - Home Schooling vs Public Schools?

[normadenardo]

But, there is no reason that a parent can not fully educate or equip a child for life. Public Schools are fairly recent. Til about 100 years ago very few went to public schools and every one grew up to support themselves (there was not welfare, etc) The actual data is, children homeschooled are self motivated and have no problems finding jobs. It's kind of like the falsehood that you must have a college education to get a job... it's just not a truth. 

 

Complete opinion-Schools are ran by the government, the government is ran by Satan.. Jehovah gave children to their parents to education/teach/inculcate. There is no reason for a parent to hand their child over to the state for education. Especially a mediocre education at best. I really don't take any vestment in worldly opinions of education vs employment there's usually always a agenda, that underlies any of Satan's agendas, money, greed, stealing children's hearts from God and Parents, and applying them to government, and Satan's agendas. Greed, debt, bad association, subversive to Jehovah's principles and government.... nothing they say is from Jehovah, or for the good of Jehovah's Kingdom... it's literally coming from the opposite team, if you will. 

This is so very true. Having researched this for many years (benefits, risks, socialization issues etc) I came to the same conclusion as Heather. I have seen witness kids survive public school and I have seen witness kids eaten alive (spiritually.. not literally). I have seen "strong" kids fall to peer pressure and "weak" kids rise to the occasion. Like I said in a previous post.. there are just too many variables to say which way is best. A parent can only do the best they can do with what support and resources they have available. I have done it both ways. I don't think the public school system will survive armageddon. I don't think that we will be sending our children off to let someone else teach them "what they need to know" in the new system (of course thats just my opinion).  Now if someone chooses to pursue training based on their interests when they are of an age their parents and they themselves deem it is appropriate... thats different. I believe their will be ones who will lovingly mentor those who which to apprentice in certain trades. I live for the future and take to heart (not that anyone else doesn't) that if you put Jehovah first he will provide. Yes even a job, and a house, and a car. No that doesn't mean being lazy... because if we put Jehovah first we certainly wouldn't be a lazy person. This may be the last I have to say on this. To each their own is what it comes down to. Pray for guidance, know yourself and your child.... only then can one truly make an "educated" decision.

[trottigy]

The actual data is, children homeschooled are self motivated and have no problems finding jobs. It's kind of like the falsehood that you must have a college education to get a job... it's just not a truth.

This kind of takes us back to the original question, eh. Do you have a place where we can read this "actual data"? That is part of what I was looking for.

I have seen the data about college - that many are not in the career they went to college for. Like this for example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/

But it is also interesting that college grads are less likely to be unemployed. See these statistics: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

You mentioned "actual data" is there a source for that?

Edited October 30, 2015 by trottigy

[PrairieGirl]

I don't keep a database of where the data comes from, because I can see it with the homeschoolers I am surrounded by. (funny enough one homeschooler I know, who is my age, actually became a professor! lol haha This apparently is not uncommon either! lol) That said, from google I did find this study-

http://ww2.kqed.org/mindshift/2014/09/02/how-do-unschoolers-turn-out/

 

But, I don't really vest my decisions on studies... (as many out there would even say we are in a cult and are crazy for being witnesses, and thinking that God is going to destroy the wicked, etc!) I just go by what the Bible says, and what I observe with the people around me. In Bible times people did not send their children for the most part to others for education. That is one reason that you could not be a "Jew AKA Israelite" if your mother was foreign (unless she converted). So if your father was Jewish and your mother not, you were not a Jew. You of course were considered legally a Jew if your mother and father both were Jews. OR if your mother was a Jew and your father not... Weird you say? Why the difference in who the parent was? Because fathers had jobs to do, mothers were at home teaching, training and raising the children. Her beliefs, her values, her language was what would be taught to the children, if they could not even speak Hebrew they would have a hard time fitting in, socializing and feeling like a Jew. And in essence since they would not be taught any of those things, how could they be one? Just like us today, if we don't teach our children Theocratic education, language, culture... while their parents may be witnesses, it would be hard for them to relate themselves as one, and why so many drift away. Any who... point being, I take more vestment in what Jehovah approved of and didn't approve of in the Bible, to see what sounds most reasonable. Rather then worldly studies, which almost always have some underlying agenda that is not pure. 

[kejedo]

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_education_summary.htm

 

Same chart, (extension) shows most job openings in HS or Equiv.

 

p.s. They are for full time jobs only.  

Edited October 30, 2015 by kejedo

[trottigy]

It is an interesting chart:

 

It shows that close to 25% of all the jobs that will be available will require a person to have some form of a college education. Clearly those with a degree can apply for those without one. Perhaps this is a part of why those with them are less likely to be unemployed.

 

But getting back to the question of those homeschooled - Heather provided an interesting link. Sadly, it seems so little research has actually been done and that very little "actual data" is even available. Take the link Heather posted and in it we see this:

 

 

A big question relevant to parents, teachers, and administrators who wish to assess unschooling is, “What becomes of unschooled graduates (or ungraduates)?” To date, there has been no systematic outcome study of unschoolers, but some research has been done on homeschool outcomes. We do know that although not all homeschooled students choose to go to college, those who do are typically judged as very well prepared (Cogan, 2010; Greene & Greene, 2007; Lattibeaudiere, 2000).

 

 

When it was stated "The actual data is," I was genuinely hoping to see that data, but it still appears to be little if any.

Edited October 30, 2015 by trottigy

[normadenardo]

So 75% of the jobs need no college degree.

[kejedo]

So 75% of the jobs need no college degree.

If one adds up all the categories with any post secondary ed, there are still more openings for HS grads only. 

[normadenardo]

how do homeschool students compare to public-  http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/Rudner2.asp

homeschooling vs public schooling by the numbers-  http://www.collegeathome.com/homeschool-domination/

homeschooling achievement-  http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

 

Thought these were interesting.

[normadenardo]

Most homeschoolers are high school grads... it's just a different type of high school.  I also wonder what the stats are on percentage of kids who are drop outs nation wide ( U.S.) or public school. 

[trottigy]

In Bible times people did not send their children for the most part to others for education. That is one reason that you could not be a "Jew AKA Israelite" if your mother was foreign (unless she converted). So if your father was Jewish and your mother not, you were not a Jew. You of course were considered legally a Jew if your mother and father both were Jews. OR if your mother was a Jew and your father not... Weird you say? Why the difference in who the parent was? Because fathers had jobs to do, mothers were at home teaching, training and raising the children. Her beliefs, her values, her language was what would be taught to the children, if they could not even speak Hebrew they would have a hard time fitting in, socializing and feeling like a Jew. And in essence since they would not be taught any of those things, how could they be one? Just like us today, if we don't teach our children Theocratic education, language, culture... while their parents may be witnesses, it would be hard for them to relate themselves as one, and why so many drift away. Any who... point being, I take more vestment in what Jehovah approved of and didn't approve of in the Bible, to see what sounds most reasonable. Rather then worldly studies, which almost always have some underlying agenda that is not pure. 

 

I do not think this is accurate to say, "In Bible times people did not send their children for the most part to others for education."

 

Note this 2008 Watchtower article - especially as it discusses "the Tutor" mentioned in Galatians 3:24:

 

 

 

The Tutor and His Responsibilities

 

Tutors were widely used in well-to-do Greek, Roman, and perhaps even Jewish households to supervise the activities of children from infancy to puberty. The tutor was generally a trusted slave, often aged, who acted as an attendant to ensure a child’s safety and to see to it that the father’s wishes for the child were respected. All day long, the tutor accompanied the child wherever he went, attended to his hygiene, took him to school, often carried his books and other equipment, and watched over his studies.

 

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008167

 

Schools have been around for thousands of years. While true they were primarily for the wealthy until recently (the last 200 years), they were around and many sought ways to get their children in. When access to this was denied there were also apprenticeships that were activity sought. Parents would SELL their children into virutal slavery to get them in to certain apprenticeships   This is a large part why public education came about in the first place.

 

In Jewish life - the synagogue was much like a school where ones were taught and discussions were had - see Jesus at 8 years old taking advantage of just this "education resource".

 

I notice - even in the study pointed to earlier - many of those who homeschool feel a need to defend their choices. I am NOT trying to attack that choice in any way. Look at what I have posted - nothing there has even hinted at me saying - "you did a bad thing by not letting your child attend public school." Please, do not be so aggressive in your defense! All that does is make one wonder - do you have a need to be that aggressive in your defense? Who are you trying to convince - me or you? If you feel confident in your choice - which I think most of you do - then just say that. There is no need to be defensive. 

 

My question is and has been a search for data that may help others with their choice - not an attack you on your choice. I have been able to find VERY little. So, I thought I would go to those who NO DOUBT did much research before making that choice. I assumed it would not be hard to be shown that data. I was wrong. It seems there is very little and ones are just going on their "gut instinct" rather than "actual data". And that is a parents job to make what they FEEL is the best choices for their children.

Edited October 30, 2015 by trottigy

[trottigy]

how do homeschool students compare to public-  http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/Rudner2.asp

homeschooling vs public schooling by the numbers-  http://www.collegeathome.com/homeschool-domination/

homeschooling achievement-  http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

 

Thought these were interesting.

 

Thank you. I will look through these links. This is what I as hoping to find  

[kejedo]

http://www.nheri.org/research/research-facts-on-homeschooling.html

 

There are some stats in here if one wants to click a couple of studies, however, I doubt if reliable numbers of comparison do exist. 

[trottigy]

Again from the earlier link provided - I find this FASCINATING!!

 

 

 

In 2011, he and colleague Gina Riley surveyed 232 parents who unschool their children, which they defined as not following any curriculum, instead letting the children take charge of their own education. The respondents were overwhelmingly positive about their unschooling experience, saying it improved their children’s general well-being as well as their learning, and also enhanced family harmony. Their challenges primarily stemmed from feeling a need to defend their practices to family and friends, and overcoming their own deeply ingrained ways of thinking about education. (The results are discussed at length here.)

 

Perhaps time for a new topic.

[normadenardo]

So wait... when we explain our reasons about why we feel so passionately about our children and how we teach them... that's defensive?  

 

And when you used the words  "Or is she planning on just staying at home until she gets married?" what exactly were you saying?  

 

What I wrote initially was (I thought) a nice explanation. So sure after your comment my human instinct was to defend myself. 

I just posted three sites with stats. 

 

[kejedo]

As I recall from working on these Dept of Labor stats, if a person worked two part time jobs,it was not counted as full time. Most current and future job openings will not offer FT due to employer group insurance requirements. Here are the Labor Force questions which netted preceding stats,

 http://www.census.gov/cps/files/questionnaire/Labor%20Force.pdf

Edited October 30, 2015 by kejedo

[trottigy]

So wait... when we explain our reasons about why we feel so passionately about our children and how we teach them... that's defensive?  

 

And when you used the words  "Or is she planning on just staying at home until she gets married?" what exactly were you saying?  

 

What I wrote initially was (I thought) a nice explanation. So sure after your comment my human instinct was to defend myself. 

I just posted three sites with stats. 

 

 

I agree, my question "Or is she planning on just staying at home until she gets married?" was very antagonistic. I am sorry for that!

 

Thank you also for the sites. I am very interested in checking them out.

 

What caused me to note "defensiveness" was not specifically anything some one has posted in this thread. I posted that after looking at the above mentioned article and saw that as one take away from that study. I must admit that whenever I talk with parents (my brother and sister in law are but two) , from the moment I ask a question about it - I note the guard going up. It makes me wonder - are they second guessing their decision if they feel they need to defend it so vehemently??? 

 

My wife and I have NO children by choice. There was a short time where we did try, but with the world as it is now - I am thankful we were unsuccessful. That being the case, I have NO IDEA the choice I would make. That answer would also need to change with the times. But as an elder people ask about these things. We only have one article that I can share - April 8th Awake 1993 (a LONG TIME AGO!!). I was hoping for some more recent info to provide assistance. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by trottigy

[Old]

So wait... when we explain our reasons about why we feel so passionately about our children and how we teach them... that's defensive?  

 

And when you used the words  "Or is she planning on just staying at home until she gets married?" what exactly were you saying?  

 

What I wrote initially was (I thought) a nice explanation. So sure after your comment my human instinct was to defend myself. 

I just posted three sites with stats. 

 

Sister Norma, I deeply appreciate the passion you have shown in posts dealing with raising and taking care of your children, whether it has to do with  immunizations or schooling. Should all parents be so committed to the welfare of their family.

That being said, with heartfelt smiles, I think you are reading into Jerry's comments personal attacks which I don't see. It has been stated many times in this forum that what the reader reads into a post is not necessarily what the writer intended. Often works both ways.

Your defenses are accepted. Thank you Norma for your experiences and the informative material. 

Time to shake hands.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Old

[PrairieGirl]

I just want to clarify I said for the most part, and when I say Bible times, I am speaking of Jehovah's people in Bible times, not worldly people who would not of been living up to Jehovah's standards. 

 

What I meant about schools, til recently, I meant public schools with requirement to attend... 

[kejedo]

Since the first word in the title of this thread is Statistics (my least fave math to teach,) I started thinking of how few practical maths are taught in school. Yes, young ones don't know how to write their names or count back change. For some reason, this sample problem popped into my head:

1) Today, Bob wants to start regrowing his beard. He knows from experience that it grows one half inch per month. Stuart's beard is one inch long, already,and grows one millimeter a day. On what day will they both be ????? (never mind)

[ReadYourBible]

Since the first word in the title of this thread is Statistics (my least fave math to teach,) I started thinking of how few practical maths are taught in school. Yes, young ones don't know how to write their names or count back change. For some reason, this sample problem popped into my head:

1) Today, Bob wants to start regrowing his beard. He knows from experience that it grows one half inch per month. Stuart's beard is one inch long, already,and grows one millimeter a day. On what day will they both be ????? (never mind)

 

I found this to be quite informative.  I plan to use it for my leg hair myself.  

 

I was getting a bit bored in work today and started messing around in Excel and decided to create a beard calculator to see how long it would take me to reach certain lengths of beards.

I have had different styles in the last 25 years and am 23 days into a new beard. I thus decided to pluck a hair and measure it, divide it by 23 to work out the daily rate of growth. I then proceeded to set up a table with columns number of days, weeks, months and proceeded to calculate the length of my beard over an 18 month period.

I know this is a sad way to spend my time, but I thought you would like to see the results:

1 day = 0.027 inches

37 days or 1.23 months = 1 inch

111 days or, 16 weeks = 3 inches

221 days or 7.37 months = 6 inches

442 days or 63 weeks = 12 inches

Considering I have only ever lasted a maximum period of 10 weeks (1.9 inches) in the past without trimming back, I very much doubt I will ever go much beyond this length without wanting to change styles!

(found by doing a google search entitled 'beard calculator')

Edited November 1, 2015 by cerebral ecstasy

[ReadYourBible]

I don't have any hard and fast stats that were asked for here.

 

I got pregnant at 15, dropped out of school.  I went to our distance learning centre and got the necessary course materials to continue on. For subjects I was keenly interested in, I often finished up in a matter of weeks.

 

I then did two concurrent math courses one of a lower level and one at a higher level because I needed to take the lower level as a prerequisite for the higher.  These Math courses though were geared at people who had no intention of doing pure Math 30 for their diploma.

 

Then did a fast track of the chemistry through a community college while extremely pregnant with my 2nd child, my water actually broke the day of the final exam *laughs*.  My instructor was kind enough to give me a month to come and write the exam after.

 

When I finally returned to 'regularly' scheduled school programming, I had been enrolled by the high school in 'remedial' course work because of my junior high marks.  

 

I showed up the first day for Science 14 and I finished reading the 140 page text in class.  I told the teacher, and he looked at me strange when I asked for another text.  He tested me and I ended up with a 93% or something of that nature and they kicked me out of the class into a 20 level Biology.

 

Additionally, I was in a 10 level French (home schooling through tapes), I was tested and my instructor was so delighted with my understanding and 'speaking', she said I spoke it like a native Parisian.  So she bumped me up to a 20 level and even asked if I wanted to be in an IB course (international baccalaureate) and come with her G12 class to Quebec that year. I declined.

 

I was a bit bohemian at the time, I hated being any one place for too long and hated people.  I wanted to be a musician and possibly teach music, until I realized I have absolutely zero talent in this area.  I tried to get into a music degree at a community college, tested on what is known as a skills appraisal. At 17, I was in the 94% percentile of about 600 students who were tested.  

 

So I went from a Gr 9 dropout at 15 to:

Chem 10,20 - in 8 weeks (comm college)

Chem 30 - 6 weeks (high school)

English 30 - 1 exam (challenged exam)

Bio 10 - 3 weeks (home school)

Bio 20, 30 - 8 weeks  (got pregnant again, so I did Bio 20 at home)

Math 13,23,30 - 16 weeks (13 at home, 23 in school, 30 at community college)

I never intended to take Pure Math 30 because I was horrible at it, but needed the credit, so I took it.  I ended up with a 95% average.  (I was terrified of math)

Physics 30 - 4 weeks (community college) I am one of the 10% in Alberta that has Physics 30 on her diploma. Even though Physics is a lot of math, I loved it because it made sense!!!

Social 30 - I never went to class just showed up for exams LOL - 8 weeks

French 10,20,30 - 8 weeks (home school, with tapes, high school)  

 

By the end of high school I was pregnant again.  

 

Started some university courses in 1996, finished a lot of those quickly.  Wrote the medical college admissions test (MCAT) before finishing my B.Sc. (I lacked inorganic and organic chem) and was offered admissions into three universities in the US.  But with 3 babies at home, a gambling husband, my mom dying later in 97, having my brother come to live with me, it wasn't plausible.  Then I started studying the bible around the same time and I realized there wasn't much point in pursuing it anyhow.

 

In 2010 I took a nanotechnology systems program at a technical institute, because I was tired of administrative work and needed to support myself better, obtained that, then went to work for the University of Alberta in research and development of organic solar.  Then Jehovah asked me to fulfill another role, and so because I perceived that he considered my research as something dangerous to my spirituality, I left the University to become a regular pioneer.  Which I did for a whole big fat 6 months, before coming off the list and having to go back to administrative work.

 

So long story short, home schooling can really work for you if you make it.  There has to be a commitment from both the student and the instructor.  I didn't actually have any help for high school, but loved the fact I didn't have to spend countless hours in the classroom!

 

Also, it's good to ask Jehovah what he would like for you to do before you make plans.  He may have something completely different in mind, and you'll end up like me.  Someone with a lot of useless education and a whole different direction in life than what you'd ever imagined who just works at a really crummy, stressful job that I should be grateful for.  

Edited November 1, 2015 by cerebral ecstasy

[Joey]

If by upper grades you are talking 9-12 there is nothing there that prepares them for a career unless they are in a technical school or a work program at school. Most kids do not take this route and many schools do not offer this as an option. There usually are college prep classes offered... but thats a whole 'nother can o' worms.

I really disagree with this.In our area we have post-secondary.Two years of college for free.My son opted out of this but I know many other witnesses who have taken that route.They get a degree with no student loans hanging over their heads.Many do this while pioneering.

My son is taking metal fab and welding.He loves it.We wanted him to have options that we couldn't afford to give him.

[kejedo]

I don't have any hard and fast stats that were asked for here.

 

I got pregnant at 15, dropped out of school.  I went to our distance learning centre and got the necessary course materials to continue on. For subjects I was keenly interested in, I often finished up in a matter of weeks.

 

I then did two concurrent math courses one of a lower level and one at a higher level because I needed to take the lower level as a prerequisite for the higher.  These Math courses though were geared at people who had no intention of doing pure Math 30 for their diploma.

 

Then did a fast track of the chemistry through a community college while extremely pregnant with my 2nd child, my water actually broke the day of the final exam *laughs*.  My instructor was kind enough to give me a month to come and write the exam after.

 

When I finally returned to 'regularly' scheduled school programming, I had been enrolled by the high school in 'remedial' course work because of my junior high marks.  

 

I showed up the first day for Science 14 and I finished reading the 140 page text in class.  I told the teacher, and he looked at me strange when I asked for another text.  He tested me and I ended up with a 93% or something of that nature and they kicked me out of the class into a 20 level Biology.

 

Additionally, I was in a 10 level French (home schooling through tapes), I was tested and my instructor was so delighted with my understanding and 'speaking', she said I spoke it like a native Parisian.  So she bumped me up to a 20 level and even asked if I wanted to be in an IB course (international baccalaureate) and come with her G12 class to Quebec that year. I declined.

 

I was a bit bohemian at the time, I hated being any one place for too long and hated people.  I wanted to be a musician and possibly teach music, until I realized I have absolutely zero talent in this area.  I tried to get into a music degree at a community college, tested on what is known as a skills appraisal. At 17, I was in the 94% percentile of about 600 students who were tested.  

 

So I went from a Gr 9 dropout at 15 to:

Chem 10,20 - in 8 weeks (comm college)

Chem 30 - 6 weeks (high school)

English 30 - 1 exam (challenged exam)

Bio 10 - 3 weeks (home school)

Bio 20, 30 - 8 weeks  (got pregnant again, so I did Bio 20 at home)

Math 13,23,30 - 16 weeks (13 at home, 23 in school, 30 at community college)

I never intended to take Pure Math 30 because I was horrible at it, but needed the credit, so I took it.  I ended up with a 95% average.  (I was terrified of math)

Physics 30 - 4 weeks (community college) I am one of the 10% in Alberta that has Physics 30 on her diploma. Even though Physics is a lot of math, I loved it because it made sense!!!

Social 30 - I never went to class just showed up for exams LOL - 8 weeks

French 10,20,30 - 8 weeks (home school, with tapes, high school)  

 

By the end of high school I was pregnant again.  

 

Started some university courses in 1996, finished a lot of those quickly.  Wrote the medical college admissions test (MCAT) before finishing my B.Sc. (I lacked inorganic and organic chem) and was offered admissions into three universities in the US.  But with 3 babies at home, a gambling husband, my mom dying later in 97, having my brother come to live with me, it wasn't plausible.  Then I started studying the bible around the same time and I realized there wasn't much point in pursuing it anyhow.

 

In 2010 I took a nanotechnology systems program at a technical institute, because I was tired of administrative work and needed to support myself better, obtained that, then went to work for the University of Alberta in research and development of organic solar.  Then Jehovah asked me to fulfill another role, and so because I perceived that he considered my research as something dangerous to my spirituality, I left the University to become a regular pioneer.  Which I did for a whole big fat 6 months, before coming off the list and having to go back to administrative work.

 

So long story short, home schooling can really work for you if you make it.  There has to be a commitment from both the student and the instructor.  I didn't actually have any help for high school, but loved the fact I didn't have to spend countless hours in the classroom!

 

Also, it's good to ask Jehovah what he would like for you to do before you make plans.  He may have something completely different in mind, and you'll end up like me.  Someone with a lot of useless education and a whole different direction in life than what you'd ever imagined who just works at a really crummy, stressful job that I should be grateful for.  

What a fascinating story. I ill read it again later. It shows that one can get their education in a variety of ways. Good for you or pursuing them all!

[kejedo]

 It shows that one can get their education in a variety of ways.

Correction: This sentence should read."It shows that one can get his or her education in a variety of ways."  Alternate correction: replace 'one' with 'people.'

[Elijahsmama]

I really disagree with this.In our area we have post-secondary.Two years of college for free.My son opted out of this but I know many other witnesses who have taken that route.They get a degree with no student loans hanging over their heads.Many do this while pioneering.

My son is taking metal fab and welding.He loves it.We wanted him to have options that we couldn't afford to give him.

I really disagree.... I haven't been in high school for 30 years but even then high school was all about college prep. Getting ready for sats and choosing the right school. There were those others who actually learned a skill in the technical school. Now it's even worse, society pushes that you need a college degree to do anything, but with all do respect an associates degree (two years of college) means nothing in today's world unless it's connected with a technical skill like nursing for instance. I work in a hospital (pharmacy technician) with young people who have spent thousands and thousands of dollars for a degree and have zero clue what to do next. They work beside me making less money than me because I took one class at a community college and became certified.

I homeschool but am preparing my son (he's 6) for a spiritual future. We always talk about bethel and pioneering. Whatever happens in this system if it lasts 20 years those things will still be here. Even tho bethel is downsizing it will always need workers, so who knows. However, we are practical in the fact that he will need a skill to support himself and perhaps a family. In my area health care is huge. I would encourage something like that, and at 16 he can take college courses. I will never encourage getting a degree for the sole purpose of having a degree. It's useless.