How would Military Conscription affect our brothers in Europe?

[Dave]

On the 75th anniversary of NATO, Germany’s defence minister Boris Pistorius hinted at compulsory military service for the nation, citing the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war. This is a growing trend in Europe; many countries such as Norway, Denmark and others have either implemented conscription or considering it

 

https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/germany-compulsory-military-service-conscription-europe-denmark-sweden-ukraine-norway-13756555.html/amp

[Brandon]

They would just invoke their conscientious objection rights, no?

 

that is a thing in most countries and has been pushed by the UN, and I’m pretty sure all of the European Union recognizes it by law

[Ishaya]

It makes me to wonder 🤔

 

are there other groups in Europe who are also refusing military service like Jehovah's witnesses?

 

Or is this conscription specifically done with Jehovah's witnesses in mind?

 

 

[Mike047]

This is an important point to consider. I did put up a thread on this: 'Remaining Neutral in Time of War', because we will need to give helpful advice to those who are potentially of callup age in our own country. 

 

Conscription is not a religious-specific move by a government, but many nations are low on their military number and equipment.

[Andrey]

In Ukraine, although there is a constitutional right to alternative (non-military) service, according to the Constitution of Ukraine Section II RIGHTS, FREEDOMS AND DUTIES OF MAN AND CITIZEN Article 35: "If the fulfillment of military duty contradicts the religious beliefs of a citizen, the fulfillment of this duty shall be replaced by alternative (non-military) service." https://www.president.gov.ua/ua/documents/constitution/konstituciya-ukrayini-rozdil-ii

 

Military institutions treat Jehovah's Witnesses very harshly and aggressively when they receive mobilization summonses for military service. There are many cases of cruel and immoral treatment of brothers in these organizations. In the ministry we also face aggression from the civilian and military population. I personally went through the draft for military service on February 5, 2024. The military does not want to take into account the Constitution of Ukraine. 

 

In Ukraine, other religious denominations or organizations, including Jehovah's Witnesses, also enjoy the right to refuse to serve in the army.

Edited April 7 by Andrey

[Mike047]

The UK record for conscientious objectors during the two world wars shows how often principles are abandoned when a government determines that 'might is right'.

 

Having said that, it is important to know how a bible trained conscience should guide us in determining what to do, and what to refuse to do. The Watchtower issue of November 1st. 1939, pp.323-333 said:

 

par 4 -The position of Jehovah’s witnesses should be
clearly and definitely defined, and that position must
be fully supported by the Scriptures. Jehovah’s witnesses
are Christians, who follow the lead of Christ
Jesus their Head in obeying the commandments of
the Almighty God, and who are therefore wholly and
entirely devoted to the kingdom of God, which is
THE THEOCRACY. The mere fact that one claims to be
a Christian does not mean that he is in fact a Christian.
His course of action must prove his claim. A
Christian is one who has fully covenanted to do the
will of Almighty God and therefore to be obedient
to God’s commandments even as Christ Jesus, the
beloved and exalted Son OF God, obeys Jehovah’s
commandments. As Christ Jesus is, so are his followers,
Jehovah’s witnesses, in this world.--1 John
4: 17.
par 5 - There is now war among some of the nations of
earth. Some of the nations not actually at war have
declared their neutrality. It will be difficult for the
officials of the nations to clearly understand the real
neutrality of Jehovah’s witnesses, but their position
must be so clearly stated that there may be no occasion
to hare any doubt as to where they stand and no
doubt as to the correctness of the position they take
or have taken.

par 41 - Being entirely neutral as between the nations of
earth Jehovah’s witnesses do not pray to God for
one political ruler as against another. They do not
pray, as commanded by the ruler of any earthly government,
for the success of the armies of one nation
against another, but they pray as Jehovah God, by
Christ Jesus, has commanded them to pray, to wit:
‘Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as
it is done in heaven.’ (Matt. 6: 10) God’s people are
now living on the earth practically under all earthly
governments, and it would be entirely inconsistent
for them to pray for one government as against another,
and particularly in view of the fact that all
of such earthly governments are against God’s kingdom.
Jehovah’s witnesses pray to their Father in
heaven, who is eternal, and who is neutral as to all
earthly governments, and who declares that in his
own due time he will by the hand of Christ Jesus
completely destroy all governments that are opposed
to and against THE THEOCRACY, for the reason that
such opposing governments are under the hand of

Satan.

par 43 - The rule by which Jehovah’s covenant people
must now be governed is that of strict neutrality between
the nations at war. It is the privilege of all
nations to fight it out amongst themselves, but the
Christian must not interfere, by word or act, with
the governments in any action they may take with
reference to the conscription of men or material for
the war. The covenant people of God must keep their
hands off, because it is not their fight and it would
be wrong to try to induce others not to fight. Each
one must determine for himself his relationship to

God and his government.

 

The whole article was clear, and helped any who did not know where to draw the line.

Edited April 7 by Mike047

[Andrey]

This is my application to the military institution when I came under summons for military service. I didn't include personal information here. My request was rejected and at any moment I can be sent a notice again or call my phone number to come to the military service. This is what they do to all brothers all over the country.

Application to the military enlistment office.pdf

Edited April 7 by Andrey

[Osprey]

It is sad how all obligations and constitutions are starting to go out the window when things become hot. Unfortunately I think we cannot rely too much on any "rights" that we have guaranteed under various agreements and laws. This can change pretty quickly when situation in the country is not normal anymore for any reason.

Being "for peace" and neutral may be viewed even as commendable by some other people in peace time, but over the night you may become a traitor in eyes of the same people if situation changes.

Edited April 7 by Osprey

[Parale]

3 hours ago, Ishaya said:

are there other groups in Europe who are also refusing military service like Jehovah's witnesses?

 

Yes.

 

Without doing a deep dive, I believe that in Britain the first widespread and organised conscription was for The Great War (AKA First World War, 1914-18).

 

At that time the foundation of conscientious objection within The Military Service Act 1916 was helped to be laid down by the Religious Society of Friends (AKA Quakers)

• https://quakerstrongrooms.org/2016/03/02/the-conscience-of-the-nation-the-work-of-three-quaker-mps-during-world-war-i/

By the end of the War some 1,800,000 people had applied for exemption from military service - either due to doing work of national importance, it would cause business or domestic hardship, due to medical unfitness, or conscientious objection.

 

Out of that number conscientious objectors numbered 20,000, of which 264 where Bible Students/Jehovah's Witnesses.

• https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/26/happens-refuse-conscription-uk-army-20178938/
• https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/301973003#h=51

[Andrey]

2 hours ago, Andrey said:

This is my application to the military institution when I came under summons for military service. I didn't include personal information here. My request was rejected and at any moment I can be sent a notice again or call my phone number to come to the military service. This is what they do to all brothers all over the country.

Application to the military enlistment office.pdf 32.35 kB · 7 downloads

 

Here is the response to my application for the right to choose alternative non-military service from the State Administration.

 

Answer on alternative non-military service from Cherkasy Regional State Administration.pdf

Edited April 7 by Andrey

[Parale]

4 hours ago, Ishaya said:

are there other groups in Europe who are also refusing military service like Jehovah's witnesses?

 

14 minutes ago, Parale said:

Yes.

 

Without doing a deep dive, I believe that in Britain the first widespread and organised conscription was for The Great War (AKA First World War, 1914-18).

 

At that time the foundation of conscientious objection within The Military Service Act 1916 was helped to be laid down by the Religious Society of Friends (AKA Quakers)

• https://quakerstrongrooms.org/2016/03/02/the-conscience-of-the-nation-the-work-of-three-quaker-mps-during-world-war-i/

By the end of the War some 1,800,000 people had applied for exemption from military service - either due to doing work of national importance, it would cause business or domestic hardship, due to medical unfitness, or conscientious objection.

 

Out of that number conscientious objectors numbered 20,000, of which 264 where Bible Students/Jehovah's Witnesses.

• https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/26/happens-refuse-conscription-uk-army-20178938/
• https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/301973003#h=51

 

 

I should perhaps add - before anyone else does - that that word 'like' is doing some heavy lifting in your question.

 

Thus the Religious Society of Friends (AKA Quakers) are conscientious objectors because they are pacifists.

 

Whereas the Bible Students/Jehovah's Witnesses are conscientious objectors - not because we are pacifists (we aren't) - but because of our stand of political neutrality towards earthly/secular entities.

 

[Andrey]

4 minutes ago, Andrey said:

 

Here is the response to my application for the right to choose alternative non-military service from the State Administration.

 

Answer on alternative non-military service from Cherkasy Regional State Administration.pdf 97.53 kB · 0 downloads

 

I had to draw up a new letter of request for the decision of the State Administration.

Statement to the Head of the Department of Social Protection of the Population of Cherkasy Regional State Administration.pdf

[Andrey]

55 minutes ago, Andrey said:

 

I had to draw up a new letter of request for the decision of the State Administration.

Statement to the Head of the Department of Social Protection of the Population of Cherkasy Regional State Administration.pdf 104.25 kB · 3 downloads

 

This is a second response letter, to my second application for alternative non-military service, to the State Administration.

Answer on alternative non-military service of Cherkasy RSA.pdf

[Brandon]

6 hours ago, Andrey said:

This is my application to the military institution when I came under summons for military service

Ukraine is under martial law, so there is no government other than the military (the military is now the only government, in charge of everything).

 

That is an unusual case right now on the world stage, although that could change as time goes on.

[Andrey]

In relation to the brothers (Jehovah's Witnesses), those who are responsible for issuing summonses for conscription into the Armed Forces of Ukraine use such actions: they take away identity documents, cell phones, so that they cannot call the police, who can release the brother. Some brothers are forcibly placed as detainees and can be kept in isolation for a long time. Why don't the military want the police called? The detainee is a civilian, the military has no right to detain and force to do anything.

Edited April 10 by Andrey

[Dolce vita]

On 07/04/2024 at 15:38, Andrey said:

 

Ceci est une deuxième lettre de réponse, à ma deuxième demande de service alternatif non militaire, adressée à l'administration d'État.

Réponse sur le service non militaire alternatif de Tcherkassy RSA.pdf 97,29 Ko · 7 téléchargements

Dear Andrei, what consoles me in everything that happens is the certainty that nothing escapes Jehovah, neither what is imposed on you nor what you endure. How comforting it is to know that He is our loving Father! So he will not allow a single hair to have the audacity to come between Him and us. Of course this does not mean that we will not go through moments of selling but nothing will happen that He does not already know. I love reading about the experiences of our brothers and sisters in Russia and the lessons they learn from them. One of the last, Brother Pavel Sidorenko said: "I appreciate what is explained at Romans 8:38, 39... Having that reassurance of Jehovah's constant love gives me great strength. He knows what I am going through and understands my feelings. Nothing brings me greater joy than my relationship with Jehovah."

What more can we add?

[Dolce vita]

On 07/04/2024 at 03:17, Dave said:

À l'occasion du 75e anniversaire de l'OTAN, le ministre allemand de la Défense, Boris Pistorius, a fait allusion au service militaire obligatoire pour la nation, citant la guerre en cours entre la Russie et l'Ukraine. Il s'agit d'une tendance croissante en Europe ; de nombreux pays comme la Norvège, le Danemark et d'autres ont mis en œuvre la conscription ou envisagent de la faire

 

https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/germany-compulsory-military-service-conscription-europe-denmark-sweden-ukraine-norway-13756555.html/amp

In France, work has been launched by the Prime Minister with a view to its generalization at the start of the 2026 school year." 

Soon to be...

[Andrey]

 

 

35 minutes ago, Dolce vita said:

Dear Andrei, what consoles me in everything that happens is the certainty that nothing escapes Jehovah, neither what is imposed on you nor what you endure. How comforting it is to know that He is our loving Father! So he will not allow a single hair to have the audacity to come between Him and us. Of course this does not mean that we will not go through moments of selling but nothing will happen that He does not already know. I love reading about the experiences of our brothers and sisters in Russia and the lessons they learn from them. One of the last, Brother Pavel Sidorenko said: "I appreciate what is explained at Romans 8:38, 39... Having that reassurance of Jehovah's constant love gives me great strength. He knows what I am going through and understands my feelings. Nothing brings me greater joy than my relationship with Jehovah."

What more can we add?

 

Thank you, Sister Fa!

 

"Jehovah is my light and my salvation. Whom should I fear? Jehovah is the stronghold of my life. Whom should I dread?...Hope in Jehovah; Be courageous and strong of heart. Yes, hope in Jehovah." (Psalm 27:1, 14)

 

The Scriptures contain many express commands to take courage and they also show how one can gain it. (Ps 31:24) The association of fellow worshipers can be a great aid. (Ac 28:15) At Psalm 27:14 David, himself a man of courage, said: “Be courageous and let your heart be strong.” In the preceding verses of Psalm 27, he reveals what helped him to be courageous: Relying upon Jehovah as “the stronghold” of his life (vs 1), past experiences with how Jehovah dealt with his adversaries (vss 2, 3), appreciation for Jehovah’s temple of worship (vs 4), trusting in Jehovah’s protection and in his help and deliverance (vss 5-10), continued instruction in the principles of God’s righteous way (vs 11), and the qualities of faith and hope (vss 13, 14). (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 p. 516) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001049

 

 

Edited April 10 by Andrey

[Mike047]

Thankyou for the comments that remind us of the need to prepare now, for uncertain times ahead.

On 4/7/2024 at 1:39 PM, Parale said:

Whereas the Bible Students/Jehovah's Witnesses are conscientious objectors - not because we are pacifists (we aren't) - but because of our stand of political neutrality towards earthly/secular entities.

Paul points out something we need to remember that sets us apart. Many brave men and women have taken their stand around the world. In the book "Bible Student Conscientious Objectors in World War I Britain", there area number of brothers who set the bar very high in their way of handling this. With tact and integrity Jehovah's people stood out.  We appreciate the stand taken by the Quakers, and the records kept by them, but we take our stand for the Kingdom of God, and seek to do what he requires of us through our whole-souled devotion to him.

[Jwanon]

Aren't religious ministers exempt from military service? 😛

[Araujo JW]

 

Today a brother sent this news about a couple from Ukraine. The circuit overseer (who is not Ukrainian) was “kidnapped” to go to war. He asked us here to pray for him (Alexander Sivun, his wife Tanya). But as I know this forum is full of righteous people, I would like to share with you…. 

 

Brother Andrey @Andrey, do you know them?

 

 

[Andrey]

14 minutes ago, Araujo JW said:

 

Today a brother sent this news about a couple from Ukraine. The circuit overseer (who is not Ukrainian) was “kidnapped” to go to war. He asked us here to pray for him (Alexander Sivun, his wife Tanya). But as I know this forum is full of righteous people, I would like to share with you…. 

 

Brother Andrey @Andrey, do you know them?

 

 

Brother Cristino, no.