Religious right to refuse service to gays.

[Trina]

This is an interesting news article that was on Fox News tonight I thought you might like to review. It seems there is a fight over wether people have the right to decline work/services to someone based on your belief and the issue has caused the question of wether you should be able to impose your beliefs on others...could this affect our preaching work in some way? What are your thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us/religious-right-in-arizona-cheers-bill-allowing-businesses-to-refuse-to-serve-gays.html?_r=0

[Kevin Anthony]

In regard to homosexual wedding ceremonies I understand some businesses refusal to participate in these events by offering their services, thus seeming to condone this Unscriptural behavior, and trend in defiling the sacred institution of marriage that Jehovah God is the source of. Since we share this Scriptural view with professing Christians maybe it could prove to be common ground in our conversations with them. Just a thought.

[dermas]

This is an interesting development.  This is another case where religion and media and government clash.  Could this be the avenue that is taken for the naions to turn on false religion (ie over personal religious beliefs vs public opinion)?  Personally I am gona watch this one closely!

[trottigy]

 

The bill cleared the Arizona Legislature last week. Opponents are calling the measure “state-sanctioned discrimination” and raising such scenarios as gays being denied restaurant service or medical treatment when a business owner’s religion doesn’t condone homosexuality.

 

The bill updates existing Arizona law on the “exercise of religion” and protects businesses, corporations and people from lawsuits if they deny services based on a “sincere” religious belief.

 

Supporters argue the bill is about protecting religious freedom, not about allowing discrimination. And they frequently cite the case of a New Mexico photographer sued for refusing to take wedding pictures of a gay couple.

 

We'll see if the governor of Arizona signs it or vetoes it.

 

This is an interesting one for Christians. We have had articles on this, for example:

 

w99 4/15 Q from R - "Some of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been offered employment involving religious buildings or property. What is the Scriptural view of such work?"

 

 

The first key question is this: Is the secular work itself condemned in the Bible? Commenting on this, The Watchtower noted that the Bible condemns stealing, misuse of blood, and idolatry. A Christian should avoid secular work that directly promotes activities that God disapproves of, such as those just mentioned.

 

The second question is: Would doing this work make one an accomplice in a condemned practice? Clearly, a person employed in a gambling den, an abortion clinic, or a house of prostitution would be an accomplice in an unscriptural practice. Even if his daily work there was merely sweeping floors or answering the telephone, he would be contributing to a practice that God’s Word condemns.

 

Many Christians faced with employment decisions have found that analyzing just those questions helps them reach a personal decision.

.....

So let us review five additional factors that The Watchtower set out:

1. Is the work simply a human service that of itself is not Scripturally objectionable?

2. To what extent does the person have authority over what is done? 

3. To what degree is the person involved?  (Own the business or just an employee)

4. What is the source of the pay or the location where the work is done? 

5. What is the effect of doing the work; will it hurt one’s own conscience or stumble others? 

 

Great article for making decisions like this!!!!

[Trina]

http://youtu.be/pZy2Z8tnQHI

Religious freedom or right to discriminate.

Video from CNN Anderson Cooper fighting with Arizona politicians over the issue.

I think it is interesting because it is setting a trend for others to follow if they are against this right of people to act out their religious beliefs in their daily lives by choosing certain jobs, services, and employees of people they don't agree with their personal lifestyle. That means churches cannot refuse weddings for gay couples, or anyone for that matter... Religious freedom is definitely on the edge of extinction in the US today. We only have to see one particular situation used to change the whole scene of the legality.

Hypothetically...I can just see it now, the right person will start a situation because he is irritated that we have come to their door in service and they decide that we are no longer allowed to try to influence other peoples thinking trying to make them feel they are not right in their lifestyle...this is just thinking out loud...

Attorney General made statement on the issue of same sex marriage.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/24817326/holder-discriminatory-laws-dont-need-defending-same-sex-gay-marriage

[trottigy]

Arizona Governor Vetoes Bill Seen Allowing Bias Against Gays

http://mobile.businessweek.com/news/2014-02-26/arizona-governor-vetoes-bill-seen-discriminating-against-gays

[Allabord4Jah]

Jerry, there is a sister who works for a company here in my neck of the woods.  She said everyone, and I mean everyone except her, is homosexual/lesbian.  They are managers, chiefs, and other higher ups.  The company does medical services, the sister is an executive secretary.  She answers to several bosses.  The men do not bother her, but she said that a woman came on to her.  She (was telling us out in service her experience at work) told us that she stopped the woman right in her tracks.  She told her she was straight and not to please bother her.  Several of us in the car group with her just said to find another job.  The sister said "Do you know how hard it is to get employment now a days." 

 

After she left our car group, another sister that I was with in her car group said, if it was her conscious, she would be looking for other work.  Jehovah would make sure she got something else.  Consciously she would not put herself or have taken a job where 100 percent of the people in this office are all gay.    The sister (the one who works in this office) also told us that she see's some of the men make out.  

 

After she left our car group, we all felt sick to our stomachs.  The choice is her own, we didn't condemn the sister. We didn't condemn the people she works with either, except the part where in some corner of the office or offices, they were making out.   Where does one draw the line? 

 

We can't condemn anyone, am waiting when someone from the gay community comes to our hall, sits down with his mate or her mate and starts to make out in the kingdom hall.   Then what?  Put them out? Law Suit?  ACLU at your door step? 

 

I see it as a sign that the Great Tribulation is coming sooner then we think!   This is what am reading on the news, and viewing (like the above article on the veto from Arizona) where you can't discriminate against anyone, including the homosexual community.   Where does one draw the line at a place of employment that is 100 percent opposite of what Jehovah does not approve of?

[bohemian]

My own take on that (my conscience view) is to ask: what would I do if everyone in the place I work smoked, some even smoking in full view of everyone? They are doing something Jehovah disapproves.

What if everyone in the place I work was a thief, openly taking property of others, and even trying to influence me to steal?

What if everyone were having extra-marital affairs with their workmates, and 'hitting on me' too?

All these are things of which Jehovah disapproves and I would have to put up a hard fight to stay loyal to Jehovah. But it is the sort of pressure our children face every day in schools, and we don't necessarily think of moving them to another school, but of helping them resist the pressures and stay loyal.

Yes, homosexuality is disgusting. Lot and his family was surrounded by a whole city full of them. Yet he must have had business dealings with them, sold his sheep to them, or whatever his trade was. He stayed loyal to Jehovah and he was rescued from the situation.

I also do not condemn the individuals, but the practice they follow. And the sister? I think she needs all the support and encouragement we can give her to cope with the situation she is in.

[pnutts]

That means churches cannot refuse weddings for gay couples, or anyone for that matter... Religious freedom is definitely on the edge of extinction in the US today. We only have to see one particular situation used to change the whole scene of the legality.

Good thing that our "Marryin' Sams" can only perform ceremonies in our halls if both parties are in 'good standing', baptized witnesses and body of elders agree to use the hall. Thus we do not legally discriminate against any group - if they are in good standing, from Jehovah's point of view, then there is no problem.

Edited February 27, 2014 by pnutts

[bohemian]

That means churches cannot refuse weddings for gay couples, or anyone for that matter... Religious freedom is definitely on the edge of extinction in the US today. We only have to see one particular situation used to change the whole scene of the legality.

 

 

Gay marriage laws in the UK actually exempt  the Church of England and others from this law.   However, providing services to gay people is enshrined in law, one may not descriminate. 

If a brother or sister follows a conscientious decision not to provide their services based on the customer's sexual orientation, then that is their decision, but they must be prepared to accept the sanctions the law may impose.  Just as our decision not to go to war etc may bring with it sanction from the authorities.

[Stavro]

Arizona Governor Vetoes Bill Seen Allowing Bias Against Gays

http://mobile.businessweek.com/news/2014-02-26/arizona-governor-vetoes-bill-seen-discriminating-against-gays

 

As odd as this may sound, that's probably the best option.

 

If the law were passed, the Supreme Court would immediately strike it down, effectively creating an opposite law, and in turn make it much easier to impose fines and sanctions against those who do discriminate against people who are gay. Without an official law, the initial cost of filing a lawsuit is much higher, and there's no guarantee that they'll win, so the likelihood of an individual gay person seeking legal action against a company is much lower than it would be if all they had to do is fill out a form and wait for the check to come in the mail.

 

That said, our Kingdom work is legally considered to be a "private club" and is exempt from various civil rights laws. While we may allow public attendance, as a private organization we retain the legal right to deny products, services, and association to anyone for any reason, even when those reasons are otherwise protected by state or federal law. According to the Supreme Court, "Freedom of association therefore plainly presupposes a freedom not to associate". (See also: BSA v. Dale, Roberts v. Jaycees)

[trottigy]

This is a good reason to incorporate if you are a sole proprietor. The business can close without you personally being liable. Then just start up as another company - it is done all the time.

 

Also, as I was thinking about this, just tell them their isn't room on your schedule to do their wedding. Do NOT say - "your gay - NOPE!!!"

 

Just some thoughts.

[bohemian]

This is a good reason to incorporate if you are a sole proprietor. The business can close without you personally being liable. Then just start up as another company - it is done all the time.

 

Also, as I was thinking about this, just tell them their isn't room on your schedule to do their wedding. Do NOT say - "your gay - NOPE!!!"

 

Just some thoughts.

I assume that there really would have to be no room on the schedule, otherwise this would be lying!

In the UK a couple were prosecuted for denying a room in their guest house to a gay couple. They would also deny the room to an unmarried straight couple too. Still,they lost their case and I believe they went out of business.

[trottigy]

I personally have no time for gay couples. That isn't a lie.

I had heard about the couple in the UK - VERY SAD situation. The government is now forcing people to do business they wouldn't otherwise do.

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