Jump to content
JWTalk - Jehovah's Witnesses Online Community

The Universe Should Not Exist


We lock topics that are over 365 days old, and the last reply made in this topic was 1768 days ago. If you want to discuss this subject, we prefer that you start a new topic.

Recommended Posts

https://futurism.com/cern-research-finds-the-universe-should-not-actually-exist/

 

According to the laws of reality as science understands it, the universe should never have lasted for more than a few moments after it began.

 

I'd like to compare with this clip from a very interesting Documentary called 'Particle Fever', about the Cern Hadron Collider..

 

 

The first three minutes of this clip are setting up an explanation of The Great Question, which they talk about at the 3:05 mark.

 

I saw this in cinemas, and it amazed me how much the experts will tie themselves in a knot, trying to avoid The 'G' Word.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as I would like to see direct miracles in creation of the universe, these problems with human cosmological theories rather show man's limited understanding since Jehovah no doubt used the natural laws he had just put in place to create the universe. The math used in creation seems to be for the moment beyond human comprehension. But sometimes that is simply because we are too blind to see the answer staring us in the face. Once we see it, then the solution becomes obvious. I wonder if these scientists were willing to use the G word that then they could understand the mathematics behind creation. Assuming the answer is random causes them to look for random causes instead of looking for patterns of design that you would expect from a highly intelligence creator. Sometimes I think the evidence is dragging the cosmologests kicking and screaming to a place they do not want to go. For the angels who witnessed creation, this must be hilarious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/29/2017 at 3:01 PM, Wm-Scott said:

As much as I would like to see direct miracles in creation of the universe, these problems with human cosmological theories rather show man's limited understanding since Jehovah no doubt used the natural laws he had just put in place to create the universe.

 

I think their problem is that they assume exactly that - that the natural laws we have now are all that were used to create the universe.

Can you imagine if, having figured out all the rules that make a car engine work, you tried to use those same rules to explain how the parts came together to form an engine in the first place?  You would always fail, because the parts were actually assembled by a totally different process than the one that actually makes the engine keep running.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ferb said:

 

I think their problem is that they assume exactly that - that the natural laws we have now are all that were used to create the universe.

Can you imagine if, having figured out all the rules that make a car engine work, you tried to use those same rules to explain how the parts came together to form an engine in the first place?  You would always fail, because the parts were actually assembled by a totally different process than the one that actually makes the engine keep running.

 

(tu)

That’s such a good way to illustrate the issue - how the engine functions versus the process used to create the engine. Very different processes.

Jehovah wasn’t/isn’t restricted to the physical laws when creating the physical universe.

He designed the laws as they exist today. And, clearly, if you’re going to create such laws, you certainly can’t be limited by any.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cosmological theories all start at or just after the Big Bang when the physical laws were put in place with all events after the Big Bang subject to those natural laws. The universe since the Big Bang is a natural out working of the laws Jehovah set in place at the moment of creation in the Big Bang. The problem is who set those laws so impossibly precisely and who created the Big Bang since there was nothing before. The Big Bang had to have a cause, and yet scientifically that is impossible since a physical cause can not preexist before the universe existed.

 

Once Jehovah set the natural laws, he was bound by them in a way since breaking  laws he had just enacted would have been poor planning. Jehovah set the laws and the resulting conditions perfectly to result in the universe we see in the night sky. Everything took place exactly as he planned it would when he set those laws. Our galaxy, solar system, the earth, all formed naturally according to Jehovah's plan. That is why Genesis opens with the lifeless earth and tells how Jehovah miraculously created life here on earth. Life is a miracle as was Big Bang, but the orbit of the Moon or the earth is the result of the out working of the chain of events that Jehovah set in motion in the Big Bang.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/21/2017 at 1:55 AM, Wm-Scott said:

Once Jehovah set the natural laws, he was bound by them in a way since breaking  laws he had just enacted would have been poor planning. Jehovah set the laws and the resulting conditions perfectly to result in the universe we see in the night sky. Everything took place exactly as he planned it would when he set those laws. Our galaxy, solar system, the earth, all formed naturally according to Jehovah's plan.

 

Let's suppose that there's some philosophical reason Jehovah can't break the physical laws - though I think it more accurate to say simply that as a God of order, he would choose not to. When we lift an object off the floor, we aren't 'breaking' the law of gravity, just acting against it.  Momentum is still conserved, energy is still conserved, but we make things happen that the laws of physics by themselves wouldn't naturally cause.  Can't Jehovah do the same?  I expect Jehovah took care to be as orderly as possible to conserve energy and momentum when parting the Red Sea - perhaps the water cooled to compensate for its increase in gravitational potential energy.  But by doing such a thing, was he breaking the laws of physics?  If so, then he is incapable of doing anything (and I think there are philosophers in Christendom who subscribe to this view).

Quantum physics makes it a bit clearer.  While it remains true that quantities must be conserved, like charge, energy and momentum, a lot of things are down to probability - so the splitting  of the Red Sea, so long as energy was conserved as mentioned earlier, didn't even violate any physical laws, it was just an incredibly unlikely event.  After all, the sea could fall down again, so it could certainly go up - anything that can happen can happen backwards, that's the T in CPT symmetry.  Things just tend not to happen backwards on a human scale because the larger a scale you get to, the more unlikely it becomes.  But while unlikely, it's still not physically impossible, so Jehovah hasn't broken any laws of physics by causing it.

 

On 11/21/2017 at 1:55 AM, Wm-Scott said:

Cosmological theories all start at or just after the Big Bang when the physical laws were put in place with all events after the Big Bang subject to those natural laws.

 

Yes, but those cosmological theories usually work on the basis that God doesn't exist.  So they have to assume that anything after the Big Bang was caused only by natural laws.  Frequently even those proposing it recognize that the theory doesn't really work - so they have to assume invisible unverifiable things to try to make it work, regions of unobservable dark energy or dark matter perfectly distributed to have pushed things together in the right way - because there can't possibly be any god that pushed things together in the right way, that's unthinkable.  Other than the fact that they have to take this view to be considered acceptable among their atheist peers, I don't think they have any logical basis for it - and it would be a very strange way of creating things, don't you think, not making what you want to make, but trying to set up all the pieces so that they fall into the shape of what you want to make once you set them moving?  It's hard to see any reason why Jehovah would have got the Master Worker to take such an unusual way of making things, just to try to conform to the theories that atheists would one day come up with to rationalize not believing in Him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20.11.2017 at 3:07 PM, Ferb said:

 

 

Can you imagine if, having figured out all the rules that make a car engine work, you tried to use those same rules to explain how the parts came together to form an engine in the first place? 

 

 

I like to use the illustration of an AI programmed to understand itself and the boundaries / confines in which it has been programmed, but it would never understand the concept behind a workstation, a screen, a mouse and keyboard, a programmer, his family, a human life.

 

In the same way, we are struggling to understand these "confines" in which we exist but we have no idea about the overall concept of our creator and his methods.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Ferb said:

But while unlikely, it's still not physically impossible, so Jehovah hasn't broken any laws of physics by causing it.

Jehovah's power is by definition a super natural force, it is not a natural out working of natural laws. While Jehovah has no doubt used his holy spirit to subtly influence the out come of natural events so that they result in a desired manner, he has also used his power in direct actions as a display of his power such as when fire would come down from heaven and consume things. Many of Jehovah's actions recorded in the Bible can be explained as super naturally directed natural events such as an earthquake occurring at a specific time. But a lot of events are simply and entirely supernatural like raising the dead and instantly healing the sick and disabled. Any supernatural action is by definition a breaking of the natural laws of the universe, that is why such events are called supernatural because they are super or beyond the naturally possible. I agree that Jehovah being our all wise creator uses the laws he designed in the out working of his actions as much as it suits his purpose and uses direct supernatural interventions when needed. But in creating the universe natural processes were no doubt used for everything except for the creation of life, since that is why the natural laws were set up, that is the  very reason they exist. The laws were set to define and govern our universe. Such laws would be of little use if they did not govern the development of the universe. From a human point of view, of what use is a law that is not enforced? Human governments make many laws that are pointless because they are ignored. Jehovah doesn't make impractical laws that have to be circumvented if you want to get anything done. That why I would expect everything but life to be entirely explainable by the out working of the natural laws. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 26, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Thomas Walker said:

According to the laws of reality as science understands it, the universe should never have lasted for more than a few moments after it began.

 

Exactly! This is what we've basically  been saying all along.

That is: The way science understands it...and explains it, WITHOUT A CREATOR, it couldn't exist!  Case closed. :coffee:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

About JWTalk.net - Jehovah's Witnesses Online Community

Since 2006, JWTalk has proved to be a well-moderated online community for real Jehovah's Witnesses on the web. However, our community is not an official website of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is not endorsed, sponsored, or maintained by any legal entity used by Jehovah's Witnesses. We are a pro-JW community maintained by brothers and sisters around the world. We expect all community members to be active publishers in their congregations, therefore, please do not apply for membership if you are not currently one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

JWTalk 22.7.20 (changelog)