no country for women

[Ishaya]

parents may decide to use their authority to help their children to  make good marriage choices.we know Abraham played a very significant role in choosing a wife for isaac (Isaac was no doubt an adult).

 

So i think until a child finally gets married,the parents are scripturally authorised to have a say in their marriage choices or other decisions. unless if the parents choose not to intervene,or better still,the adult child may respectfully appeal to their parents to allow them to make their own choices so that they can be happy in the marriage.

 

[Thesauron]

Would not the account in Mark speak contrary to the "no responibility for them"?
 
(Mark 7:11-13) . . .‘If a man says to his father or his mother: “Whatever I have that could benefit you is corban (that is, a gift dedicated to God),”’ 12 you no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother. 13 Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition that you have handed down. . . .
 

The parents have no responsibility for the decisions their children make. Mark 7 is talking about something else.

[Thesauron]

parents may decide to use their authority to help their children to  make good marriage choices.we know Abraham played a very significant role in choosing a wife for isaac (Isaac was no doubt an adult).
 
So i think until a child finally gets married,the parents are scripturally authorised to have a say in their marriage choices or other decisions. unless if the parents choose not to intervene,or better still,the adult child may respectfully appeal to their parents to allow them to make their own choices so that they can be happy in the marriage.
 

They lived in a patriarchal society where it was tradition that parents or a trusted servant selected a marriage mate. This does not mean the grown up child had no say. Sometimes, they did chose their marriage mates for themselves. (Ge 29:18) either way, it seems the final decision laid with the people getting married, not the parents.

When you think about it, the instances mentioned in the Bible where parents selected a marriage mate are relatively few. It was a tradition, not a god-given authority.

[M.J.]

4 hours ago, Ishaya said:

So I think until a child finally gets married, the parents are scripturally authorized to have a say in their marriage choices or other decisions. unless if the parents choose not to intervene, or better still, the adult child may respectfully appeal to their parents to allow them to make their own choices so that they can be happy in the marriage.

What if the parents refuse to "allow" the adult child? Then what?

 

While it is always good to ask advice from our parents who are older and (hopefully) wiser, it is not the same thing to allow your parents to make decisions for you. 

 

This type of thinking could cause an adult child to resent their parents. If the parents are overbearing, the adult child will lack any autonomy in their life. What kind of adult child allows their parents to make all their decisions for them? What then is the difference between an adult child and a minor child? How could a future marriage mate trust an adult child who has never asserted their own decision making skills and has to always rely on their parents as a crutch? 

 

What if the adult child wants to move to serve where there is need and the parents disagree? Should an adult child ask a parent permission to do something that takes precedence as God's will?  

 

The scriptures say "For each one will carry his own load." - Galatians 6:5

A wise parent, similar to a spiritual elder, will never impose themselves and force another person to make a decision based on their personal preference. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by M.J.

[ijsvogel]

8 hours ago, Ishaya said:

It seems logical that parental authority only ceases when;

>adult children get married or

>when parents are not alive or

>when parents use their authority in a way that opposes Jehovah.

According to THIS article (para 8), you can add one more situation to your list: “Single ones who no longer live with their parents are under Jesus' headship”. So if you no longer live with your parents, you are no longer under their authority. Of course that doesn't mean you don't have to respect your parents anymore, but respect and obedience are not the same. 

[Ishaya]

48 minutes ago, ijsvogel said:

According to THIS article (para 8), you can add one more situation to your list: “Single ones who no longer live with their parents are under Jesus' headship”. So if you no longer live with your parents, you are no longer under their authority. Of course that doesn't mean you don't have to respect your parents anymore, but respect and obedience are not the same. 

I have just done that.

Thanks for bringing that article in.@Hope and @thesauron mentioned this point earlier and i found it very interesting,but i needed a scripture or material from the FDS that supports this  to make me agree.

[Thesauron]

According to THIS article (para 8), you can add one more situation to your list: “Single ones who no longer live with their parents are under Jesus' headship”. So if you no longer live with your parents, you are no longer under their authority. Of course that doesn't mean you don't have to respect your parents anymore, but respect and obedience are not the same. 

I have just done that.
Thanks for bringing that article in.@Hope and@thesauron mentioned this point earlier and i found it very interesting,but i needed a scripture or material from the FDS that supports this  to make me agree.

That article linked to was from the FDS and based on the Bible. It refers to Ephesians which states that the head of the congregation is the Christ, not some elder, not a parent. However, that authority has been delegated to husbands when a woman decides to get married. Children born into that family also come under the headship of the husband, until they form their own unit, either as single or married. Unmarried Christians who live by themselves are under the headship of who? A parent? No. The Christ only.

[M.J.]

16 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Children born into that family also come under the headship of the husband, until they form their own unit, either as single or married.

Why would parental authority over a non-married adult child be based on geographic location? If a child becomes an adult, and still lives at home, they are still under the parental authority of their parents? But just because they physically move to a different location, they are suddenly no longer under that authority? This seems very arbitrary. If an adult child living at home simply does whatever their parents want, then at what point do they start bearing the responsibility for their own decisions? Doesn't common sense, and the Bible, show us that once a person becomes an adult (regardless of where they live) they have to start making their own decisions and be responsible for those decisions? "For each one will carry his own load." - Galatians 6:5.

 

* Note that I am not referring to the obvious respect and adherence to household rules, that would apply to anyone living in someone else's house. Just like when a tenant (whether they are the adult child or not) rents a room in a house, they are under the authority of the landlord in certain aspects and are expected to follow certain household rules.

[Thesauron]

Why would parental authority over a non-married adult child be based on geographic location? If a child becomes an adult, and still lives at home, they are still under the parental authority of their parents? But just because they physically move to a different location, they are suddenly no longer under that authority? This seems very arbitrary. If an adult child living at home simply does whatever their parents want, then at what point do they start bearing the responsibility for their own decisions? Doesn't common sense, and the Bible, show us that once a person becomes an adult (regardless of where they live) they have to start making their own decisions and be responsible for those decisions? "For each one will carry his own load." - Galatians 6:5.
 
* Note that I am not referring to the obvious respect and adherence to household rules, that would apply to anyone living in someone else's house. Just like when a tenant (whether they are the adult child or not) rents a room in a house, they are under the authority of the landlord in certain aspects and are expected to follow certain household rules.

But it is not arbitrary at all, I think. For as long as a child lives under the roof of their parents, they belong to that household and find themselves subjected to their parents rules and spiritual authority, no matter their physical size, age or development. Eventually, a child will want to set up their own household where they find themselves under no spiritual authority but that of Jesus Christ. But regarding responsibility, even very young children can be responsible for their own decisions, which means they can get baptised, for example.

[ijsvogel]

7 hours ago, M.J. said:

If a child becomes an adult, and still lives at home, they are still under the parental authority of their parents? But just because they physically move to a different location, they are suddenly no longer under that authority?

Just a thought: 1 Tim. 3:4,5,12 mentions “household” in the context of the requirements for an overseer, so I think the answer at your questions is in the definition of this particular word. 

[M.J.]

4 hours ago, ijsvogel said:

Just a thought: 1 Tim. 3:4,5,12 mentions “household” in the context of the requirements for an overseer, so I think the answer at your questions is in the definition of this particular word. 

I believe this would apply to any situation regarding members living under someone's roof. For example, if your aunt or uncle or cousin came to live in your home, under your roof, then its understood they would have to follow certain household standards (just like a landlord/tenant) But this would have nothing to do with parental authority. 

10 hours ago, Thesauron said:

But it is not arbitrary at all, I think. For as long as a child lives under the roof of their parents, they belong to that household and find themselves subjected to their parents rules and spiritual authority, no matter their physical size, age or development.

See my comment above.

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by M.J.

[Thesauron]

See my comment above.
 

An adult who does not live at his or her parents home does not stand under parental authority in any way. If they do live at home, they are under a measure of parental authority even if they are of age. A parent cannot require that an adult child who lives alone should obey their authority. At this point, only the Christ is their head.

I remember a Christian couple with a physically disabled daughter. They shared a house for practical purposes, but she was mentally capable of making her own decisions as an adult, so she made a point of having her own household. To her parents and her it meant having her own entrance and deciding for herself over matters regarding her life. It wasn’t because they ‘allowed her’, but because it was the appropriate thing to so. They assisted her with some things she needed help with, but for all intents and purposes she was not under their authority. And she eventually moved to another house - which she did without requiring her parents’ permission, even if she wanted their advice on some things.

[EccentricM]

@Ishaya

 

We have to define headship. What is headship? Secular or spiritual?

 

If secular, this means that a person can tell a person what to do in their lives as if they were a slave. But if spiritual, the only thing this can entail is the teaching of the scriptures.

 

If someone refuses scriptural advice from their parents (but is not sinning), what can the parent do? Beat them? Disfellowship them? No. They are an adult, and only the congregation can disfellowship or punish an unrepentant sinner. The spiritual headship is advisory, not secular slavery. And it is not a sin for an adult to not do what a parent tries to command them to do, we are told to honour parents as adults, but not to obey.

 

 

You may be confused over the definitions. Does honour mean obey? Or to show respect? Is there a difference? Yes.

 

Subjection is obeying the law and commands of the person. Honour means to be humble and show consideration. The scriptures say "children" obey (or subject to) your parents, but to adults it says "honour", not obey, these are two different words.

 

 

This is the word "honour" from the scripture about parents to adults, timaó:.
https://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm

 

Quote

timaó: I value at a price, estimate, I honor, reverence, to revere

 

Where as the scripture to obey the authorities uses the word  hupotassó

https://biblehub.com/greek/5293.htm

Quote

hupotassó "to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey"

 

At Ephesians 6:1  "children obey your parents", the word here comes from hupakouó, which has the same meaning as hupotassó above

https://biblehub.com/greek/5219.htm

 

 

 

So, if we use these roots words in the scriptures according to definition, this is how people would have read it back in the day in the raw language:

 

(To adults) "Value (timaó) your father and your mother" Matthew 19:19

(To children) Children, obey (hupakouó) your parents" Ephesians 6:1
(To everyone) "Obey (hupotassó) the secular authorities"  Titus 3:1

 

See the difference?   Adults are told to "value" (care for, not neglect, be thankful to) parents, but only children are told to "obey" or "submit" to parents.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by EccentricM

[ijsvogel]

3 hours ago, M.J. said:

I believe this would apply to any situation regarding members living under someone's roof. For example, if your aunt or uncle or cousin came to live in your home, under your roof, then its understood they would have to follow certain household standards (just like a landlord/tenant) But this would have nothing to do with parental authority. 

I understand your line of reasoning, so I tried to do some research at WOL (I was just curious, maybe because I have a 19 year old son living at home 😉). All I could find about obedience to parents and minor/legal age was an older Article  . Just a quote from this WT:

 

Quote

The Bible sets no legal age when a son can stop listening to the discipline of his father while living in his father’s house. It says: “Listen, O sons, to the discipline of a father and pay attention, so as to know understanding.” (Prov. 4:1) Since the boy is in his father’s house, he is Scripturally required to respect his father’s wishes even though he is of legal age.

Sis MJ: Did you find something about parental authority and an adult child who lives at home? Perhaps a little more recent?

[M.J.]

@ijsvogel
 I read your post,  and article quote. The quote has a scripture, and connects the scripture to the idea of living at home, but in fact the scripture does not say that. The scripture simply says to respect your parents, which always applies regardless of age or location.

[Thesauron]

[mention=7732]Ishaya[/mention]
 
We have to define headship. What is headship? Secular or spiritual?
 
If secular, this means that a person can tell a person what to do in their lives as if they were a slave. But if spiritual, the only thing this can entail is the teaching of the scriptures.
 
If someone refuses scriptural advice from their parents (but is not sinning), what can the parent do? Beat them? Disfellowship them? No. They are an adult, and only the congregation can disfellowship or punish an unrepentant sinner. The spiritual headship is advisory, not secular slavery. And it is not a sin for an adult to not do what a parent tries to command them to do, we are told to honour parents as adults, but not to obey.
 
 
You may be confused over the definitions. Does honour mean obey? Or to show respect? Is there a difference? Yes.
 
Subjection is obeying the law and commands of the person. Honour means to be humble and show consideration. The scriptures say "children" obey (or subject to) your parents, but to adults it says "honour", not obey, these are two different words.
 
 
This is the word "honour" from the scripture about parents to adults, timaó:.
https://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm
 

timaó: I value at a price, estimate, I honor, reverence, to revere

 
Where as the scripture to obey the authorities uses the word  hupotassó
https://biblehub.com/greek/5293.htm

hupotassó "to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey"

 
At Ephesians 6:1  "children obey your parents", the word here comes from hupakouó, which has the same meaning as hupotassó above
https://biblehub.com/greek/5219.htm
 
 
 
So, if we use these roots words in the scriptures according to definition, this is how people would have read it back in the day in the raw language:
 
(To adults) "Value (timaó) your father and your mother" Matthew 19:19
(To children) Children, obey (hupakouó) your parents" Ephesians 6:1
(To everyone) "Obey (hupotassó) the secular authorities"  Titus 3:1
 
See the difference?   Adults are told to "value" (care for, not neglect, be thankful to) parents, but only children are told to "obey" or "submit" to parents.
 
 

This is true. So, Jesus honoured his mother Mary when he listened to her wishes and when he arranged for her to be taken care for after his death and subsequent resurrection. But he was not required to obey her. Even though he was a single man, he was not under her authority.

[carlos]

Different cultures have different ways of doing things. For those living in Western countries it's almost inconceivable that parents interfere with an adult couple who wants to get married. Yet in other cultures it's common to have your parents arrange your wedding, as happened in Bible times. Surprising as it may seem to us, our publications do not say one custom is better than the other.

 

Of course, Bible principles always apply and are beneficial for all cultures.

 

 

 

 

[M.J.]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:38 AM, EccentricM said:

So, if we use these roots words in the scriptures according to definition, this is how people would have read it back in the day in the raw language:

 

(To adults) "Value (timaó) your father and your mother" Matthew 19:19

(To children) Children, obey (hupakouó) your parents" Ephesians 6:1
(To everyone) "Obey (hupotassó) the secular authorities"  Titus 3:1

 

See the difference?   Adults are told to "value" (care for, not neglect, be thankful to) parents, but only children are told to "obey" or "submit" to parents.

Couldn't the word "children" apply to any age? For example, if you speak to an elderly woman, she could say, "I have 5 children." They are all adult children, but the parent speaking would still refer to them as her children, as they are, in fact, her children.

[EccentricM]

2 hours ago, M.J. said:

Couldn't the word "children" apply to any age? For example, if you speak to an elderly woman, she could say, "I have 5 children." They are all adult children, but the parent speaking would still refer to them as her children, as they are, in fact, her children.

True, though I don't see many textual indications of it.  All references to these specific Greek words in the lexicons say in regard to the word used for "children" which is teknon:

 

Quote

5043 téknon – properly, a child; (figuratively) anyone living in full dependence on the heavenly Father, i.e. fully (willingly) relying upon the Lord in glad submission. This prompts God to transform them into His likeness.
 

5043 /téknon ("a child living in willing dependence") illustrates how we must all live in utter dependence upon the Lord (moment-by-moment), drawing guidance (care, nurture) from our heavenly Father. 5043 (téknon) emphasizes the childlike (not childish) attitude of heart that willingly (gladly) submits to the Father's plan. We profoundly learn this as we are receptive to Christ speaking His rhēma-word within to impart faith (cf. Ro 8:16,17 with Ro 10:17, Gk text).

Of course looking into verses such as https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-28.htm

 

We see here a the word for "child" is being used to refer to a man's sons being told to work in a vinyard. Of course.. it may refer to a father training his children to work from a young age.. on the other hand they be be adult sons being told to go to work.

 

Most if not all references seem to use the term to refer to actual children or being "child like".  https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_5043.htm

 

 

[M.J.]

I think this word "children" requires more research.

 

My mom was being slick and she caught me with this line of reasoning, 

[carlos]

On 10/16/2021 at 8:46 AM, M.J. said:

Couldn't the word "children" apply to any age? For example, if you speak to an elderly woman, she could say, "I have 5 children." They are all adult children, but the parent speaking would still refer to them as her children, as they are, in fact, her children.

The word used here in Greek simply means "offspring". It often refers to small children, but it can refer to adults too. Yet IMO context makes it clear that this particular scripture is addressed to young people who still live with their parents and depend on them. The scripture says:

 

“Children, be obedient to your parents in union with the Lord, for this is righteous. “Honor your father and your mother” is the first command with a promise: “That it may go well with you and you may remain a long time on the earth.” And fathers, do not be irritating your children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and admonition of Jehovah.” (Ephesians 6:1-4)

 

While adults have the obligation of honoring their parents too, notice the last sentence. One would not expect parents to discipline their adult children, already married and living in their own homes, or bring them up in the admonition of Jehovah. That has to refer to children who still live under their authority. After all, Jesus said adult children would leave their parents when they get married.

[M.J.]

On 10/19/2021 at 4:27 AM, carlos said:

One would not expect parents to discipline their adult children, already married and living in their own homes, or bring them up in the admonition of Jehovah.

I agree, though I wonder if multi-generational households living together may disagree. For example, if four of five generations live together, it is my understanding that in some cultures the patriarch still calls the shots. As an example, it seems that Benjamin, though he was a grown man, likely married with children of his own, was still very much at the mercy of his father's Jacob decison making when it came to determining whether or not he would be allowed to go to Egypt. 

[carlos]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:24 AM, M.J. said:

I agree, though I wonder if multi-generational households living together may disagree. For example, if four of five generations live together, it is my understanding that in some cultures the patriarch still calls the shots. As an example, it seems that Benjamin, though he was a grown man, likely married with children of his own, was still very much at the mercy of his father's Jacob decison making when it came to determining whether or not he would be allowed to go to Egypt. 

That is a good point. In patriarchal societies the head of the household had much more authority than parents do at present. They were lawgivers and judges. Even then, I am not sure to what degree they "disciplined" their adult children. IMO they rather set guidelines for the whole community.

 

In any case, we do not follow the practices of ancient Hebrews. Jehovah made it quite clear that at marriage a person would "leave his father and his mother". So the command to children to obey their parents clearly applies only to young ones, not to married adults. The next time your mother tries to use that scripture, quote Genesis 2:24.

[Old]

6 hours ago, carlos said:

That is a good point. In patriarchal societies the head of the household had much more authority than parents do at present. They were lawgivers and judges. Even then, I am not sure to what degree they "disciplined" their adult children. IMO they rather set guidelines for the whole community.

 

In any case, we do not follow the practices of ancient Hebrews. Jehovah made it quite clear that at marriage a person would "leave his father and his mother". So the command to children to obey their parents clearly applies only to young ones, not to married adults. The next time your mother tries to use that scripture, quote Genesis 2:24.

So there is no head of the house if three generations are living under the parents roof?

[M.J.]

On 10/27/2021 at 6:58 PM, carlos said:

The next time your mother tries to use that scripture, quote Genesis 2:24.

Believe me, I did, she replied that the scripture says: a man will leave his father and his mother    

(This was years ago...sher really wanted to keep the family together.)