No Room for two Judicial systems? -Finland

[MizPeg]

Jehovah's Witnesses to hand over top-secret manual On Friday Finland's Jehovah's Witnesses will give their religious rule book to the Minister of Justice and the Minister of the Interior so that it can be inspected to ensure that it's in line with Finnish rule of law.

Until now, only senior members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses Committee have had access to the congregation's secret book of rules.

The disciplinary activities of the Jehovah's Witnesses Committee have been criticised for violating human rights.

According to Anna-Maja Henriksson, Finland's Minister of Justice, the purpose of the handover is to examine the book and determine whether its rules and regulations run counter to Finnish law.

Henriksson and Interior Minister Päivi Räsänen met on Thursday with the leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses in Helsinki. The book will be handed over on Friday for inspection.

According to representatives of the Jehovah's Witnesses, committee practices have been changed recently and the committee no longer addresses or interferes in the matters of its members that are considered to go against church guidelines. 

http://yle.fi/uutiset/jehovahs_witnesses_to_hand_over_top_secret_manual/7244267

.......how ridiculous...

 

The "rule book" to be handed over is one of the new Bibles, right?     

[trottigy]

I love that. And then offer them a free home bible study to understand it.

Boy, I hope they think the Bible is compatible with their laws.

[LoneWanderer]

Good thing I didn't notice this topic earlier on (somewhat active on this forum, not active on this forum, liking others' posts x n, not liking others' posts). I was absolutely steaming hot with anger (inner peace lost = apostate goal achieved?) when this "issue" was brought to the fore in the media. At the time this years' apostate cries for attention (last year/year before they complained to the Finnish state about taking notes in the ministry...wonder if they ever were as zealous while in the truth?) was brought to the fore, Helsingin Sanomat, the leading Finnish daily ran an disassociated person's story in their monthly special edition. And naturally eating out of ugly apostate hands = putting such an an outrageous spin to it.

 

The news site where some of the links in this thread (?) came from is actually not a hoax. It is the website of the Finnish equivalent of CBS, BBC or so.

 

So anyway, I was just a few minutes ago informed by my parents that the Finnish Minister of Justice has given her final comment on the matter. Not sure if they have it translated on their English-language news site, but should you wish to do so, for a basic understanding of it you can run following links through Bing/Google Translate or similar service:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/henriksson_jehovan_todistajien_karttamisrangaistus_on_inhimillisesti_kova/7349737
http://yle.fi/uutiset/jehovan_todistajien_ja_seurakunnasta_eronneiden_puheet_karttamisrangaistuksesta_eroavat_rajusti_toisistaan/7350097
(oh how crafty the reporters have been--taking a picture of the Finnish Branch Kingdom Hall through steel bars )


 Yes, "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life." (John 6:68)

Yet again the accusers fail to provide anything better at all. We can truly "again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him"! (Malachi 3:18)

[LoneWanderer]

Below a pretty good quote/some sensible words I translated from this article:

http://yle.fi/uutiset/ministerit_uskonnollisten_yhdyskuntien_on_kunnioitettava_lakia/7348400

(Ministers--Religious Orders/Associations Must Heed the [Finnish] Law)

 

An approximate translation:

The [Finnish] Minister of Justice, Mrs Henriksson, and the Minister of the Interior, Mrs Räsänen, met with representatives of Jehovah's Witnesses in May. Prior to the meeting a secret manual of the Witnesses, that provides instructions for almost areas of life, had been leaked into the public. Former Jehovah's Witnesses have among other things stated that they consider the shunning of those expelled from the community to be against the law.

Mrs Henriksson and Mrs Räsänen tell that they have been provided with a copy of the book intended for elders of Jehovah's Witnesses.

– It should be underlined that the "judicial committees" of Jehovah's Witnesses does not consist of a legal body or arrangement that would interfere or supersede with the Finnish Law. Formally the actions of these "committees" can be compared with any disclipinary action or expelling of members as practiced by various ideological associations. On the other hand, especially a long-time member can experience such actions to be very stern and serious, even offending, when facing them personally within a community that is a vital part of one's life, says the joint statement of the ministers.

The Minister of Justice and the Minister of the Interior also mention that they can not act as authorities of law, so as to make investigations on an individual basis. According to the ministers any cases where the Law is broken are to be handled by the proper authorities, such as the police or child protection services.

 

 

Original text:

 

Ministerit tapasivat toukokuussa Jehovan todistajien edustajia. Tapaamista edelsi se, että julkisuuteen oli vuotanut Jehovan todistajien salainen ohjekirja, jossa annetaan ohjeita lähes kaikille elämänalueille. Entiset Jehovan todistajat ovat kertoneet pitävänsä muun muassa vaatimusta yhteisöstä erotettujen karttamisesta lainvastaisena.

Ministerit Henriksson ja Räsänen kertovat saaneensa tutustuttavakseen Jehovan todistajien vanhinten kirjan.

– On syytä korostaa, että Jehovan todistajien ns. oikeuskomiteoiden toiminnassa ei ole kyse Suomen oikeusjärjestyksen kanssa kilpailevasta tai sille rinnakkaisesta järjestyksestä. Muodollisesti näiden komiteoiden toiminta voidaan rinnastaa aatteellisen yhdistyksen jäseniinsä kohdistamiin kurinpito- tai erottamistoimenpiteisiin.

On toisaalta selvää, että varsinkin yhteisön jäsenenä pitkään ollut ihminen voi kokea oman, luotetun ja tärkeän yhteisön itseensä kohdistamat toimenpiteet hyvin vakaviksi ja ankariksi, ehkä loukkaaviksikin, ministerit kirjoittavat.

Ministerit toteavat myös, että he eivät ole lainvalvontaviranomaisia eivätkä he siten voi ryhtyä tutkimaan yksittäisiä väitteitä tai tapauksia. Mahdolliset lainvastaiset tapaukset kuuluvat ministerien mukaan viranomaisille, kuten poliisille tai lastensuojeluviranomaisille.

 

 

Edit: Having some problems with correct use of the Quoting function...

Edited July 10, 2014 by LoneWanderer

[Adelin]

tnx for the translation brother .... very helpful

it seems we won this trial  

thanks to our Father  

Edited July 10, 2014 by Adelin

[shali]

Sounds like the Finnish ministry of justice is bored and doesn't have much else to do. When people are bored they get obessed over one thing and dig at it until it bleeds all over the place, even though there was nothing there to begin with. We don't hear stories like that over here in the U.S. because there are so many horrible things happening every day, JW's are the last thing that come to mind. And even if something comes to the fore, it's forgotten in five minutes when some kid walks into a school with a knife and stabs 20 of his peers.

Edited July 11, 2014 by shali

[LoneWanderer]

Sounds like the Finnish ministry of justice is bored and doesn't have much else to do.

 

If I've understood the whole correctly it would never have been an issue, had apostates not tried to frame trouble as enemies of the Kingdom they are. And naturally media eagerly helps in fanning up the flames making the voice of those (small number of) cowardly opposers louder.

 

From what I've perceived the Finnish state has actually been pretty neutral. They have been willing to find out what's behind of this whole thing. When Mrs Henriksson gave a statement to the media saying that the country can't have two systems of justice, it was based only on information provided by a group ("Victims of Religion" as they call themselves) which probably consists mainly of apostates. The final statement quoted above took into account also the Witness point of view after the Minister of Justice and the Minister of the Interior had met with brothers (two members of the Branch committee?).

[trottigy]

That's how I understand this tpry as well.

More proof that ones just need to get to know us and then they can easily see through the lies (1 Peter 2:12)

[carlos]

I understand the position of the Minister. She is right that there's no room for two judicial systems in a country.

 

Some apostates were claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses have a private judicial system outside the law, where they judge and punish offences by their own laws rather than those of the country. So the Minister did the right thing: investigating it. Soon she  realized that she had been misinformed. We don't have an alternate judicial system to punish crime. We let the police and the judges to take care of that. If a brother is a thief, he goes to jail. If there's child abuse, the parents are encouraged to call the police. We don't hide nor judge those crimes.

 

We do have a judicial system to evaluate behavior that is unacceptable within our organization. As in any other organization, we have the right to expel those members who don't comply with our rules or disagree with our goals. We often see political organizations expelling some member due to statements in disagreement with their ideology. Recently a leading figure in American sports was expelled due to some racist comments. Everybody understands that, so I don't see why it should be different with Jehovah's Witnesses.

[shali]

That's how I understand this tpry as well.

More proof that ones just need to get to know us and then they can easily see through the lies (1 Peter 2:12)

I hope you will remember this quote when dealing with me Jerry! (Don't believe all the lies Musky has told you!) hehe!