How important is it to 'get it right'?

[kejedo]

I don't know much at all about Australian English, but I would love to learn the similarities/differences.

Edited December 22, 2014 by kejedo

[Brother_Bliss]

I don't know much at all about Australian English, but I would love to learn the similarities/differences.

 

And British English.... I bloody love it!

 

Aside from some uncommon words and idioms, spelling is different among such a large host of words that it would render this topic moot.

 

axe vs ax

 

neighbour vs neighbor 

 

doughnut vs donut <-- you can see how the American version completely derived from sheer laziness to "get it right" lol.

[Brother_Bliss]

But does it give you defiantly when you want definitely?

Is that a fair excuse for that one?

 

So, I just had to test this..... and guess what....

 

[kejedo]

And now: the current answer to: 

 3 times bigger than=3 times as big as or 4 times as big as

"As the title shows, "3 times bigger than" =3 times as big as or 4 times as big as. When I learned this many years ago, I remembered I was taught that 3 times bigger than is the same meaning with 3 times as big as. In the grammar books I read, all agree that 3 times bigger than means 4 times as big as, say, "China's population is 4 times larger than that of the U.S." is totally different with "China's population is 4 times as large as that of the U.S." 

I totally went nuts when I read about a completely different understanding that 3 times bigger than actually means 3 times as big as in another grammar book recently."......... 

Which one is currently used among native speakers??........Yes, they both are now considered grammatically correct, and 3 times bigger can now correctly be used to mean 3 times as big. These sentences are used in an illustrative way,grammatically.  Neither of these renderings is used in math books.  In math sentences (equations) one would say, ".....three times the size (volume, surface area, or perimeter) of x" =3x. 

 So everyone wins. It is difficult to update grammar usage when one learned just one way in the past. Personally, I still prefer sneaked to snuck, but snuck has sneaked its way into the American lexicon and is now acceptable (some dictionaries add non-standard, but still grammatically acceptable.) I also still prefer converse to conversate, but the second word has been back-defined, as well, and is now acceptable. Believe it or don't.

[kejedo]

We teachers have to keep abreast of linguistic development. Did you think I should have said "Us teachers?" Um.no

[RaymondG]

"We teachers," is it not?

I think the real evidence of the futility of using the '** times greater than' expression is when it's '2 times greater than.'

That's an awfully big difference in understanding for the person given that description. If one takes it to means 'two times the size of', as most people would expect it to mean, then it's a lot less than 'three times the size' as it could literally mean.

I won't go into the compounding side of it, but it is possible to read that into the expression.

Bob, thanks for showing the 'defiantly' option. I really don't understand what those words are saying. What I really wanted to know was, if 'defiantly' was to come up as an option, at what stage in the process of typing out 'definitely' it would come up?

[carlos]

In my teaching experience (actually almost 40 years teaching and counseling, unless one counts that I have been tutoring math since age 7), the word most frequently used incorrectly is 'their'. Not just 'there,' 'their,' and 'they're,' but in using their (plural) in a sentence that has a singular antecedent (word it refers to). Ex: everyone, anybody, and somebody are always considered singular.  "Everyone brought their raincoat." = incorrect. "Everyone brought his or her raincoat." = correct. 

 

Hi Pauline. Since you are knowledgeable in grammar, would you please have a look at my question here?:

http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/18200-why-a-jehovahs-witness-is-grammatically-wrong/

 

So far many opinions have been expressed, but they are basically what sounds better to us. It would be great to read an answer by an expert.

[carlos]

"China's population is 4 times larger than that of the U.S."

"China's population is 4 times as large as that of the U.S."

 

Sorry, I am unable to see how these are different. Both sound correct to me, but that doesn't mean anything.

Would someone please ellaborate?

[RaymondG]

And that's why '*** times greater than' shouldn't be used!

Think it through, Carlos. 'Four times as large' is a definite statement of the size (USA x 4 = ***) while 'four times larger than' states that there is four times something plus the US population size.

Two people hearing the statement made can infer two different things, it's way better to avoid it.

[maladee]

hmmm... my husband exchanges the word "well for "good"

I guess if that is my only pet peeve I am doing good lol

[RaymondG]

No, it's when you're out in the Ministry you're 'doing good'...

If you don't make mistakes you're 'doing well'.

[boodles]

How important is it to get it right? I think it's good to know standard English but I feel the most important thing is communication. No one speaks perfectly and if they did it would sound stuffy. Besides, language is constantly evolving. When I teach ESL I try to teach the "correct" way, which they've usually already learned, and then the way people really talk. They need to know both. And so do native speakers because sometimes we muddle our communication by misusing words. So I'm enjoying y'alls explanations here.

 

Has anyone heard of the radio program "A Way With Words"?

[kejedo]

Dear Sister Loraine, thanks for the good post, especially about language evolving. Communication IS the most important thing, and our North American conversational speech is different from formal written language. I get students who have moved to the US one day and join my ESL class the next day. frequently starting with zero English. So far, I think I have counted 20 languages in my classes. By far, most of my students are Spanish speaking. As you know, not every word means the same thing in different Spanish speaking countries. My Spanish students used to say that I spoke Spanglish, but: aprendo palabras más españoles cada mes, so now my students say that I am Sorta-Rican. My US English students also have difficulty learning correct grammar for their high school exams. It is even more difficult for Chinese students (in their own countries) because there are over 100 Chinese spoken languages, but everyone reads Mandarin(ese). I have learned some Cantonese,(and parts of the other language groups I teach) but if I ever retire, I would like to learn more Spanish. What is your original language?  I have not heard of that radio station, but I will try to check it out.

[kejedo]

p.s. to Boodles, I looked at that "a way with words" website and really like it. I am entirely enthralled with etymology. Good references there. <3

[RaymondG]

When it comes to success in communication, surely the important thing is to be able to be understood?

This is why it's so important to 'get it right' when writing or speaking. As I mentioned at the beginning, if you make a mistake you can easily break the train of thought. So keeping things correct is the way to enhance your communicative skills.

But this thread is principally about the written word, where it seems there is agreement that greater care should be taken. Even if the language is 'evolving', we usually keep in mind that not everyone is keeping up with the latest developments in language.

I learned this week, for instance, that 'tweaking' is a word related to some kind of drug taking. Is that the kind of evolution we need?

[Brother_Bliss]

Bob, thanks for showing the 'defiantly' option. I really don't understand what those words are saying. What I really wanted to know was, if 'defiantly' was to come up as an option, at what stage in the process of typing out 'definitely' it would come up?

 

I use Swype keyboard, which means instead of pecking at each letter, my finger traces the word without ever lifting it off the glass. Most people use something similar on their mobile devices. So upon completing the word, the keyboard may have understood the trace to be "defiantly" instead of "definitely" although as you can see, potential corrections get displayed above the keyboard for a quick tap fix.

[Brother_Bliss]

Sorry, I am unable to see how these are different. Both sound correct to me, but that doesn't mean anything.

Would someone please ellaborate?

 

"China's population is 4 times larger than that of the U.S."

 

China = USA * 4 + USA (or simplified to China = USA * 5)

 

"China's population is 4 times as large as that of the U.S."

 

China = USA * 4

 

 

Either one is grammatically correct, so grammar isn't the issue here. The issue is clarity, and I agree with RaymondG that the former is an unnecessary when it can be simplified and made more understandable.

 

But if you were in school taking an exam, you'd have to watch carefully for this wording, as it would make the difference between a right and wrong answer.

[Brother_Bliss]

I learned this week, for instance, that 'tweaking' is a word related to some kind of drug taking. Is that the kind of evolution we need?

 

LOL!

 

tweak

twēk/

verb

gerund or present participle: tweaking

1. 1.

   twist or pull (something) sharply.

   "he tweaked the boy's ear"

   synonyms: pull, jerk, tug, twist, twitch, pinch, squeeze

   "she tweaked his nose"
2. 2.

   informal

   improve (a mechanism or system) by making fine adjustments to it.

   "engineers tweak the car's operating systems during the race"

   synonyms: adjust, modify, alter, change, adapt; 

   refine

   "the product can be tweaked to suit your needs"

 

 

While some people could tweak their grammar and spelling, communication on JWTalk has been fine for the last 8 years. Thankfully, "love covers a multitude of sins" and prevents most people from trolling other peoples posts and comments regarding such usage (1 Peter 4:8).

[RaymondG]

You can also 'tweak' a car's engine to get better performance...

It's the application of it to drug usage that was new to me.

[Brother_Bliss]

You can also 'tweak' a car's engine to get better performance...

It's the application of it to drug usage that was new to me.

 

Oh okay! When you said "Is that the kind of evolution we need?" I took it as you were making a blanket ban on the use of the word 'tweak'.

[kejedo]

Things that make me wonder: I heard someone (not a Christian Brother or Sis) say they were unthawing their food in the microwave. Does that mean they were freezing it there? Also overheard: "I'm returning it back?" Does that mean it was not accepted the last time you returned it? Mebbe, although there could be a valid scenario that correctly uses re-return. Anywhom, I was just contemplating the 27th character of our alphabet. In the 1800s, the symbol "&" was spoken at the end of our 'A,B,Cs' recitation. In fact, at the end of the 26th letter, young scholars would say "and, per se, and" which became the awkward ampersand. Bleeve it or don't.

[kejedo]

In those days,all student were referred to as scholars, meaning they went to school. Forgive me for getting off topic again. I have to remind myself that this thread is about using current language correctly. I keep slipping into my amusement with word history. 

[kejedo]

Since there are obviously lovers of language on this thread, I thought I would share this site:http://www.vox.com/2014/11/17/7082317/language-maps-charts 

[kejedo]

I haven't analyzed all the charts and maps yet, but think many would enjoy at least a cursory trip through many years of language development. Of course, all language beginnings can ultimately be  traced back to the plains of Shinar. I had been looking for a Chaldean Dictionary and found at least part of it online a while back. I intend to track it down again in total or in part. There are a few things I was researching.

[kejedo]

That link is not working. I will try again: http://www.vox.com/2014/11/17/7082317/language-maps-charts