Shooting in California

[Tortuga]

Rich, thanks but I am not so sure now that I recall correctly. That QFR sounds like what I was remembering but it doesn't mention the self defense aspects of it,mayhaps I am mixing 2 separate articles together?...dunno. I cant drive this tablet like I would like to but I can use a phone, and I just may know someone that might know. ..brb.

 

Yeah, you might have mixed the two articles while you were discussing it.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Tortuga

[cricket246]

That above article from 2008 has some good points : Pursuing peace does not guarantee that you will never face violent attack. Faithful worshippers of God throughout history have been victims of violent crime. (Genesis 4:8; Job 1:14, 15, 17) If a person is confronted by an armed robber, what should he do? Jesus instructed: “Do not resist him that is wicked.” (Matthew 5:39) He also said: “From him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment.” (Luke 6:29) Jesus did not condone use of physical weapons to defend material possessions. If confronted by an armed robber, a wise person will not resist giving up his valuables. Surely, life is far more precious than belongings!

On the other hand, what if a person’s life is threatened by an assailant? A law that God gave to ancient Israel sheds light on this. If a thief was caught in the daytime and was killed, the assailant would be charged with murder. This was evidently because thievery did not carry the death penalty and the thief could have been identified and brought to justice. However, if an intruder was fatally struck at night, the householder could be exonerated because it would be difficult for him to see what the intruder was doing and to ascertain the intentions of the intruder. The householder could reasonably conclude that his family was under threat of harm and take defensive action.—Exodus 22:2, 3.

The Bible thus indicates that a person may defend himself or his family if physically assaulted. He may ward off blows, restrain the attacker, or even strike a blow to stun or incapacitate him. The intention would be to neutralize the aggression or stop the attack. This being the case, if the aggressor was seriously harmed or killed in such a situation, his death would be accidental and not deliberate.

The Best Protection

Clearly, there are circumstances under which reasonable self-defense is justified. People have a right to protect themselves and their loved ones from aggression and deadly harm. When escape is not possible, there is no Biblical injunction against reasonably defending ourselves. Still, the course of wisdom would be to do our best to avoid situations with a potential for violence.—Proverbs 16:32.

The Bible encourages us to “seek peace and pursue it” in all avenues of our life. (1 Peter 3:11) This is a practical formula that really contributes to peaceful living.

[Tortuga]

Okay now I have several things to do research on! I have heard many brothers and sisters discussing this subject in my congregation - some feel guns are okay for hunting and protection from wild animals, others feel they are okay for self protection as long as you don't use them to kill, and others are completely against any guns whatsoever (I respect all views and try not to do anything to offend their consciences - as the scriptures advise, I try to become all things to all people )

But I have often wondered, if someone did have a gun and in trying to merely protect themself they accidentally kill someone wuld they lose their privileges? Also, if someone broke into your house and say they had a gun. You try to get the gun away from them but it goes off, accidentally killing them in the process. Are you still responsible for the death?

Also, if someone is say trying to physically attack a woman/young girl, and they try to protect theirself. If they push the person away, then that person accidentally falls down the steps, hits their head, etc., is that sister responsible of murder? Did she use her hands as a weapon or was it simply self defense?

 

There are some good articles about this. The latest JWB reminded me to use the new Research Guide and I found some good info there.

[Tbs77]

Let your conscience be your guide!

"But can we bust a inCAPacitate in someone and still be in good standing?"

Lol

[AH173]

I also think that the organization published the material about carrying offensive and defensive weapons (guns, taser and pepper spray) as a kind of release of liability to the organization.

Probably, if it wasn't in print, some lawyer or agency could use that against the legal corporation for damages or something similar. My thoughts.

[tekmantwo]

Yeah, you might have mixed the two articles while you were discussing it.

Couldn't edit my other post--

It appears that I was blending articles. I will need to find that magazine and look at it again to be sure.I can recall a picture of some hunting stuff laying there, with the article under it.

Thanks for finding that. Much appreciated.

[Ahuvah]

I always remember many years ago - not long after the magazines came out in colour ... it was an Awake - and it had the question - Do you know what your children are playing with?

 

It had a picture of a little boy with a watergun and a little girl with a cabbage patch doll.  Without pushing any of my conclusions on this, just wanted to mention I found that interesting.

[tekmantwo]

Let your conscience be your guide!

"But can we bust a inCAPacitate in someone and still be in good standing?"

Lol

You live in ARizona, dontcha?...

Yes, I see you do......lol..

[Tbs77]

You live in ARizona, dontcha?...

Yes, I see you do......lol..

Just saying one DO said from platform at CA, "what do you mean, 'this is how we do in Arizona?'

[Trina]

That is so peculiar to me about pepper spray and stun guns because they do not cause death and that is what the issue is. I know so many regular pioneers and others that carry pepper spray for service to use on dogs too. They all have their privileges and good standing.

[Tbs77]

That is so peculiar to me about pepper spray and stun guns because they do not cause death and that is what the issue is. I know so many regular pioneers and others that carry pepper spray for service to use on dogs too. They all have their privileges and good standing.

Understood.

[Trina]

I mean honestly if you want to get technical on this issue, if you decide to call the police to step in and they come and then kill the person...you still caused that death by your actions of calling in the gunmen to handle it. This can't be the proper thought on the scriptures. It's not common sense. I don't get it.

[Nobody]

 

Further note:

*** w83 7/15 p. 24 par. 12 “Seek Peace and Pursue It” ***

12 In line with Romans 13:1, 4, the worldly “superior authorities” may set up certain peace-keeping agencies, such as police, that are armed officially to protect citizens and property. Since such arrangements permitted by God are described as “God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad,” it would be in order for the Christian to request and receive protection from such an agency. But even if he finds it necessary to defend himself or his loved ones by whatever is at hand, he should not use firearms. Nor would he take the law into his own hands. In many countries it is illegal even to possess firearms for self-defense.—Matthew 22:21; compare Exodus 22:2.

 

I'm afraid I don't understand what the difference is? I can defend using a knife, machete, acid, 2 x 4, gasoline, but not a firearm? Exodus 22:2 says you have a right to defend ourselves. 3 says unless you can reasonably get out of the trouble.

Matthew is simply stating follow the laws of the government. 

 

Neither has anything to do with your defence mechanism. And why would a Brother lose privileges for protecting his family? 

 

(Disclaimer:  Don't own a gun, don't think they are safe to be around for me. Kinda like if someone owns a certain breed of dog, might not be any problem with them, you can have one but I just don't feel comfortable around them)

Edited December 8, 2015 by Your Brother

[Ahuvah]

It's about intention ... do you have a knife in your kitchen for self defense? Or to do mis en place? In the case of self defense you are grabbing something on the spur of the moment that is usually used for another purpose. It could be a branch from a tree. That is showing Jehovah that you are not expecting to be violent.

 

A gun is there purely in the event of self defense, so it's premeditated, your intention is to use the gun SHOULD the occasion arise. I would though put the knife into the same category if I slept with a knife under my pillow. 

 

EDIT: You COULD reason, why can't I use a rifle for self defense? This would be foolish reasoning because according to the laws in NZ (and I'm assuming they are similar elsewhere) in order to have a firearms license both the bolt and rifle are meant to be dismantled and stored separately - under lock and key - to avoid accidents.

There is NO way in the event of self defense are you able to on the spur of the moment grab the key, assemble the gun, load the gun and fire.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Stormswift

[Tortuga]

It's about intention ... do you have a knife in your kitchen for self defense? Or to do mis en place? In the case of self defense you are grabbing something on the spur of the moment that is usually used for another purpose. It could be a branch from a tree. That is showing Jehovah that you are not expecting to be violent.

 

A gun is there purely in the event of self defense, so it's premeditated, your intention is to use the gun SHOULD the occasion arise. I would though put the knife into the same category if I slept with a knife under my pillow. 

 

Took the words out of my mouth...again.

Except I don't sleep with a knife under my pillow or slip a kitchen knife in my boot...

[Tbs77]

We still will have to wait on the "avenger of blood", Christ Jesus, to deal with us if we decide to shed blood. He can read the heart and determine what we could have and could not have done in that situation.

Right now we're in the antitypical city of refuge, yeah I said antitypical, , so Jesus will determine motive of our plea of "self-defense" if we've shed blood .

[Nobody]

It's about intention ... do you have a knife in your kitchen for self defense? Or to do mis en place? In the case of self defense you are grabbing something on the spur of the moment that is usually used for another purpose. It could be a branch from a tree. That is showing Jehovah that you are not expecting to be violent.

 

A gun is there purely in the event of self defense, so it's premeditated, your intention is to use the gun SHOULD the occasion arise. I would though put the knife into the same category if I slept with a knife under my pillow. 

 So it would be wrong,  can't intentionally, premeditate, plan a means of defence? I don't mean to be argumentitive, I just don't really understand how say if I lived in a neighborhood with a reputation for having bad people in it, I should not be prepared to defend my family? I don't understand how any brother would allow anyone to hurt a family member to be hurt and not respond. That may be a over the top comment, but if someone touched my wife I think I would hurt them severely. Give me some help here friends. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Your Brother

[Ahuvah]

I think it would be wrong to premeditate a plan of defense. I would though premeditate a plan of escape or concealment - and self defense to me because of the nature of self defense is that it's unpredictable, as to who it comes from, where you are at the time and what is at hand to use, would be impossible to premeditate. I would use the scriptures where it says for a woman to yell should she find herself being being raped - (this could be implied to any 'ambush' situation) and be prepared for flight. Only IF this is not possible then take actions to defend yourself. 

 

So for me and my husband, our first reflex would be to cry out to Jehovah (I hope) - not reach for a weapon.

[Ahuvah]

 So it would be wrong,  can't intentionally, premeditate, plan a means of defence? I don't mean to be argumentitive, I just don't really understand how say if I lived in a neighborhood with a reputation for having bad people in it, I should not be prepared to defend my family? I don't understand how any brother would allow anyone to hurt a family member to be hurt and not respond. That may be a over the top comment, but if someone touched my wife I think I would hurt them severely. Give me some help here friends. 

 

No body is saying you shouldn't be prepared to defend your family - we all have family and we are all prepared to protect one another, our first line of defense though is Jehovah, a calm heart and mind ... and procedures already put in place. Self defense is only for those unpredictable situations that arise and we are allowed to use self defense, but in order to use your firearm in this method it has to be loaded and on you at all times to cover those unpredictable events.

[Nobody]

Hmmmm, I don't know if I can buy off on that reasoning. Except of course for the cry out to Jehovah, to many experiences related to us as to it's effectiveness   

 

Thanks for your thoughts though.

[tekmantwo]

So it would be wrong,  can't intentionally, premeditate, plan a means of defence? I don't mean to be argumentitive, I just don't really understand how say if I lived in a neighborhood with a reputation for having bad people in it, I should not be prepared to defend my family? I don't understand how any brother would allow anyone to hurt a family member to be hurt and not respond. That may be a over the top comment, but if someone touched my wife I think I would hurt them severely. Give me some help here friends. 

I recall a Watchtower study a few years ago that mentioned this, our CoBE said that he had no intention of laying down and dieing just because one of satans goons wanted to kill him, that we are Jehovahs property, for Him to use, not for satan to discard for his debased reasons..

(or, something like that, my recaller is not as pointed as it usta was)

[Ahuvah]

Well if you choose to use a firearm for self defense my Brother - I only hope in case of a home invasion, or burglary or worse, that you have a back up plan - because it is highly unlikely you will have your gun on your person fully loaded ready to go in these circumstances. 

 

And I do have to agree, there are soo many experiences related to us about the effectiveness as to calling out to Jehovah first ... hence why it is MY first line of defense, he will always give us power beyond what is normal even if it's to have sound reasoning abilities to turn the situation around, or if the worst case scenario happens and I'm unable to defend myself, then my life is in Jehovah's hands. Would rather do that than be prepared with a firearm.  (Who said you are going to be beside your wife in the case of home invasion or the like? - we don't know - does that mean she should have a firearm too and know how to use it?) Jehovah is there all the time no matter where we are or who we are with.

[Old]

Jerry, I do know an Elder, who used to be a policeman, who does keep a handgun for that reason.

He told me that himself, when we were discussing this, years back....

Tim and Denise

I am not putting my 2 cents here until I do further organizational research.

 

One thing that people who are not familiar with hand guns is the fact that when you have to use it, you shoot to kill, like it or not.

A difficult state of mind for a Christian.

Keeping a handgun for self defense is essentially saying 'I am willing and ready to kill my fellow man.'

I would question the qualifications of any brother making that statement.

The idea of winging the assailant, shooting him in the leg just doesn't work in a close assault situation.

If it isn't a close assault situation why draw a gun?

Anyone with police training will tell you the same thing.

Despite what we see on TV, it is very difficult to even hit an assailant and virtually impossible to 'shoot him in the leg'.

I do have a handgun in my house.

An antique 25 caliber Stevens pistol. It is setup for target shooting, in no way do I consider it a line of defense. 

We currently have a brother visiting that was a policeman. He got rid of both of his weapons, not just the carrying of them, but sold them out right. He thus made himself available for privileges.

He will attest to my statements on the use of hand guns. 

[Ahuvah]

Nice reasoning Brother Jerry, I could never shoot someone, it's not in me, but I could hit them in order to get them off me.

[Tortuga]

I think it would be wrong to premeditate a plan of defense.

 

I think we had this exact discussion a couple of months ago and one of the things that was mentioned was the fine line between defending yourself and being the aggressor. The point that articles are making is that we should not prepare to be the aggressor. We all have the responsibility to explain our actions to Jesus and we don't want to prepare ourselves to do something that we couldn't explain to Jesus with a clean conscience.