Police inquiry over Jehovah's Witness magazine 'mentally diseased' article

[trottigy]

if it is a mainstream newspaper...unless you read it how do you know what it says?...it could of been a positive article...if someone does not want to read newspapers that is a personal decision...

YaYa dear Sianrose! But what the slave is a mind? Perhaps it will be better to stop the reading when one hears the word apostate or Ex jw's? So bible say's: "but be babes as to badness" 1 Corinthias 14:20 So We do not want to know anything about the apostates?

Yep, as soon as I saw the words "former Witness "elder" - told ..." I stopped reading! Just like turning off the TV.

Thanks for deactivating the one arguing about words.

[Greenfield]

Regarding apostates and their mentally diseased quarrels about words like 'mentally diseased' which they are airing in the public press, this scripture comes to mind:

(2 Timothy 3:8-9) 8 Now in the way that Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also go on resisting the truth, men completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their madness will be very plain to all, even as the madness of those two men became.

See, apostates make themselves evident as 'mad' or crazy without us even having to point it out, isn't that cool?

[sianrose]

so everyone here...stopped reading at...

"A group of former Witnesses, based in Portsmouth, have made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article. Police have launched an investigation".

well to me that is not an everyday occurrence...like the apostates you get on the Internet....

I read it because I do not want to be told half a story by worldly relatives who will have read it...I will be ready for any point they want to make...

if articles about us by apostates ...start to be a normal occurrence in newspapers ...I will stop reading them...

and I have never seen an apostate on TV...whether it does not happen in the UK ...or I have missed it...

[trottigy]

so everyone here...stopped reading at...

"A group of former Witnesses, based in Portsmouth, have made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article. Police have launched an investigation".

No, not there. We were interested to see what the "neutral" party - the newspaper said the complaint was. But as soon as we saw they were quoting and apostate - there wasn't a need to read what the apostate said.

I hope that makes sense.

You still know the story - so you are ready - while on the other hand - you didn't have to "associate" with the apostate. An example of how this happens on TV" 60 minutes does a story about about how there are JW pedophiles and they start interviewing former JWs about those they know .... NO need to listen them, you know the story. And you know - we protect our children!

[sianrose]

An example of how this happens on TV" 60 minutes does a story about about how there are JW pedophiles and they start interviewing former JWs about those they know .... NO need to listen them, you know the story. And you know - we protect our children!

I could never watch anything like that...in fact I do not read about what witnesses have ever supposed to have done...that is depressing...and if it's true ...it's imperfection or wickedness...nothing I can do anything about it....

but something I can research from the Bible...that is faith strengthening...

[trottigy]

An example of how this happens on TV" 60 minutes does a story about about how there are JW pedophiles and they start interviewing former JWs about those they know .... NO need to listen them, you know the story. And you know - we protect our children!

I could never watch anything like that...in fact I do not read about what witnesses have ever supposed to have done...that is depressing...and if it's true ...it's imperfection or wickedness...nothing I can do anything about it....

but something I can research from the Bible...that is faith strengthening...

I am with you my friend - )'>

Have a great day

[CMWYW]

so everyone here...stopped reading at...

"A group of former Witnesses, based in Portsmouth, have made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article. Police have launched an investigation".

well to me that is not an everyday occurrence...like the apostates you get on the Internet....

I read it because I do not want to be told half a story by worldly relatives who will have read it...I will be ready for any point they want to make...

.......

It is good to be ready! But like you said there is a line where you would turn away and not read or watch any discouraging material.

[retroHelen]

[but how have you missed the fact that "mentally diseased" is an appropriate (at the least) and likely spot on (at the most) rendering of that passage?

Yes the NWT version is subtly superior. 'Sick obsession'; 'unhealthy craving'; 'morbid interest' as used in other translations can describe a personal problem, but the definition of the apostate is someone who hasn't just left the faith, but wants to spread his ideas or complaints and disgruntledness to others especially to undermine the faith of others.Therefore, by calling it a disease, as the Watchtower wrote, this more forcefully conveys what Paul wanted to get across to the readers, that an apostate, (as opposed to a person drifting off with a weak faith) is actively seeking to infect others with their misleading or negative mindset until they are spiritually sick too. Using the metaphor of a 'disease' Paul wants us to see it as something a spiritually happy and healthy individual would want to avoid.

[westiebilly11]

would 'corrupted thinking' be a more accurate way of saying' mentally diseased'? British culture is becoming more sensitive to direct/personal terms unfortunately..!

[trottigy]

The trouble with "corrupted" thinking verses diseased is the contagious part.

Corruption is more of something that happens to you and just you, but diseased is something that is also contagious for others.

[Simon17]

The trouble with "corrupted" thinking verses diseased is the contagious part.

Corruption is more of something that happens to you and just you, but diseased is something that is also contagious for others.

But in general "mental diseases" are not contagious anyway.

I think the translation is pretty much in the spirit of the original words, not that I've studied it but from all this discussion. Given the current climate of political correctness, an argument could be made to use illustrations of, I don't know, computer viruses or something. But I think this is one to leave in the hands of the writers.

[Brother_Bliss]

would 'corrupted thinking' be a more accurate way of saying' mentally diseased'? British culture is becoming more sensitive to direct/personal terms unfortunately..!

No' date=' it's even less accurate. Here is the word copied from one of my Greek English Lexicons...

This website http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3552 states it like this... [small']Definition ...1. to be sick ...2. metaph. of any ailment of the mind .........to be taken with such an interest in a thing as amounts to a disease, to have a morbid fondness for[/small] So, the primary meaning of the word is "to be sick", and what is the primary meaning of "sick" - it's physical, meaning throwing up, diahrea, lesions, chicken pox, etc. But if the context is NOT speaking about a literal physical sickness, what must it be talking about? Answer: a mental sickness. Now I am not making this up, as this is literally what the above definition from the lexicon is saying. So since Paul was not talking about a literal physical ailment with all it's nasty symptoms, what is the alternative meaning? According to this lexicon, a mental sickness. Because of this, "mentally diseased" is a SPOT ON translation. In fact, most of the other translations cited, even those by the guy who got in here for the sole purpose of arguing, actually had renderings in harmony with "mentally diseased". Granted, the NWT translators could have just said "diseased" alone, because the mental part of it is implied by the context anyway. But it was proper to use both these words in this instance, to help make it clear exactly what Paul was saying without leaving room for wondering what it exactly was that he meant.

[Brother_Bliss]

But in general "mental diseases" are not contagious anyway.

You're right. The context has nothing to do with contagiousness. It is simply stating where the person is sick.

It's not in his gut.

It's not in his butt.

It's there, in his head.

He is mentally diseased.

[Simon17]

But in general "mental diseases" are not contagious anyway.

You're right. The context has nothing to do with contagiousness. It is simply stating where the person is sick.

It's not in his gut.

It's not in his butt.

It's there, in his head.

He is mentally diseased.

Yes, but contagiousness was implied in the verse which made sense. A disease is contagious. An apostate has an issue in their head and tries to spread that to other people's minds so the disease analogy makes sense.

For a 1st century reader/writer, the idea of an actual "mental disorder" is irrelevant because they didn't even know what that was (much less if they were contagious or not)

[Brother_Bliss]

Yes, but contagiousness was implied in the verse which made sense. A disease is contagious. An apostate has an issue in their head and tries to spread that to other people's minds so the disease analogy makes sense.

You're right. I am in error. The persons corrosive influence is to be understood in those verses.

[sianrose]

the last thing we want to do is start watering down what the Bible says...the original Gk and the context should stand....you know homosexuals are trying to get the Bibles views on homosexuality as hate speech....shall we water down that as well...and hey...what about women as the weaker vessel...should I start complaining?

where would it all end...the bottom line is apostates are "mentally diseased"....end of

[Dages]

Anyone who know greek and hebrew... know that the NWT is one of the best translation... in every languages.

Do think about it... we have the same translation of the Bible, in almost every language on Earth, from the same organization... there is no King James Chinese/Tagalog/Portuguese/Twi/etc/...

Jehovah's people is unique ! There is no other organization blessed this way.

the only one missing in NWT in Klingon... but, well...

[sianrose]

Yes the NWT version is subtly superior. 'Sick obsession'; 'unhealthy craving'; 'morbid interest' as used in other translations can describe a personal problem, but the definition of the apostate is someone who hasn't just left the faith, but wants to spread his ideas or complaints and disgruntledness to others especially to undermine the faith of others.Therefore, by calling it a disease, as the Watchtower wrote, this more forcefully conveys what Paul wanted to get across to the readers, that an apostate, (as opposed to a person drifting off with a weak faith) is actively seeking to infect others with their misleading or negative mindset until they are spiritually sick too. Using the metaphor of a 'disease' Paul wants us to see it as something a spiritually happy and healthy individual would want to avoid.

love it Helen...spot on...

Yes, but contagiousness was implied in the verse which made sense. A disease is contagious. An apostate has an issue in their head and tries to spread that to other people's minds so the disease analogy makes sense.

For a 1st century reader/writer, the idea of an actual "mental disorder" is irrelevant because they didn't even know what that was (much less if they were contagious or not)

what have you done with the real Simon17....

[trottigy]

It looks like we are getting even more strong council from the slave about apostates. Our November Study Watchtower has an article about Jehu and how he killed the apostates off in his day.

I like how it continues - "Today, no servant of Jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship. “Vengeance is mine,” God says. (Heb.10:30) But to rid the congregation of potentially corrupting influences, Christian eldersmay have to act with courage similar to that of Jehu. (1 Cor. 5:9-13) And all members of the congregation need to be determined to avoid the company of disfellowshipped individuals. — 2 John 9-11."

[sunshine]

..the "news item" has gone further afield now... into more on-line publications...they are doing a brilliant job in the comments...of showing how "mentally diseased" they are...going round in circles...and name calling us to the hilt...anybody looking for the truth...will see through these people immediately...there is no need for us to defend our selves...they are doing the job for us....

This is so true, I'm finding this all very facinating and telling - the Slave knows EXACTLY what it is doing when it publishes and article, they are NOT taken by surprise by the reaction. I recall a recent article where the brothers urged us to "close ranks" to pull in as in in the thick of battle. If we're going into battle formation, so be it. The slaves job is to protect the sheep, and they will do this with every last bit of their strength. A spade will be called as spade, no matter how the spade belly aches.

[GrumpysWife]

From the Visual thesauris

[Willow]

Side note - did you see the text for today? I thought how fitting for that text - just one day after this article came out. A little divine direction for something done over a year ago.

I keep forgetting to mention how significant that was.

*** Text for Tuesday, September 27, 2011 ***

At times, we are the target of misinformation and malicious propaganda through the media.

YOWZA! Talk about "SPOT ON"!!!

[Simon17]

Side note - did you see the text for today? I thought how fitting for that text - just one day after this article came out. A little divine direction for something done over a year ago.

I keep forgetting to mention how significant that was.

*** Text for Tuesday, September 27, 2011 ***

At times, we are the target of misinformation and malicious propaganda through the media.

YOWZA! Talk about "SPOT ON"!!!

Thats pretty impressive!

[Brother_Bliss]

I need to make a correction to this that I said earlier, especially since I go around gloating that translation is my forte. I will try to explain this without making too much of a mess out of it...

ἀλλὰ - but

νοσῶν - sick (metaphorically "mentally", "mental obsession" )

περὶ - about, concerning

ζητήσεις - questions

καὶ - and

λογομαχίας - word quarreling

I would translate this "but sick in the head because of questionings and disputes over words"

I made a mistake in my haste to type this post. Someone was kind enough to point out that νοσέω (noseō) in this passage is a verb. That is why the New World Translation uses translates this "being mentally diseased". So I should correct the way I said I would translate this above to something more along the line of "but is sick in the head because of questionings and disputes over words"

Some people like to make the claim that since noseō is a verb, and "mentally diseased" is a noun, that this is an improper translation. But this is a false and uneducated claim. Yes it is a verb ('to be') but based on a noun ('sick'). Does that sound a bit Greek to you? It is

1. This word is a participle - a word that shares some characteristics of both verbs and adjectives (verb: to be | adjective: sick/diseased).

2. It's a linking verb - a verb that implies a state of being or condition for the subject.

3. It's nominative - meaning that the adjective (sick/diseased) is not the object of the verb (to be) but another word for the subject (he).

4. The verb is in the present tense - meaning that the situation is current.

5. The verb is in the active voice - meaning the subject is doer of the action, not receiving the action.

Therefore, "He being mentally diseased" is a perfect choice on the part of the NWT translators. The phrase shares characteristics of both verbs and adjectives. "Mentally diseased" is a state of being and another word for the subject, linked by "being" which is both present and active.

But why add the "mental" part? Well, we've already been over that too many times already. The definition allows for it when the context demands it, as it does here. Most translations appropriately choose a rendering here that refers to the subjects mental state - it's not just the New World Translation.

Interestingly, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says of this "Noseo, 'to be sick', is used metaphorically of mental ailment in 1 Timothy 6:4"

So, in summary, we have numerous references and can probably keep digging up more and more even still that demonstrate that the claim that "only the NWT renders this in a way to suggest one's mental state" is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Of course, those who keep insisting that this is the case will continue to be blind to these facts, because they are mentally diseased, as the scripture states.

[NiKaylam]

Whoa!! those sound like fightin words..whats FDS?