Police inquiry over Jehovah's Witness magazine 'mentally diseased' article

[rocket]

Anyone who know greek and hebrew... know that the NWT is one of the best translation... in every languages.

Do think about it... we have the same translation of the Bible, in almost every language on Earth, from the same organization... there is no King James Chinese/Tagalog/Portuguese/Twi/etc/...

Jehovah's people is unique ! There is no other organization blessed this way.

the only one missing in NWT in Klingon... but, well...

Are you sure about that? It sounds like something Musky would be working on or maybe keeping to himself.

[ava]

Whoa!! those sound like fightin words..whats FDS?

Faithful and Discrete Slave.

[Allison]

would 'corrupted thinking' be a more accurate way of saying' mentally diseased'? British culture is becoming more sensitive to direct/personal terms unfortunately..!

It's like a prostitute preferring to be called an 'escort'. A spade is still a spade.

[PGgenius]

would 'corrupted thinking' be a more accurate way of saying' mentally diseased'? British culture is becoming more sensitive to direct/personal terms unfortunately..!

It's like a prostitute preferring to be called an 'escort'. A spade is still a spade.

The modern men are too sensitive and hurt everywhere.

[bookworm]

I was thinking that a computer virus might also be a good analogy for this "mental disease" spoken of in the Bible. What do you think? I thought of several similarities

[Allison]

I was thinking that a computer virus might also be a good analogy for this "mental disease" spoken of in the Bible. What do you think? I thought of several similarities

I like it!! Insidious, sometimes fatal to your system!

[BlueRose]

The other thread on this topic of the context of the scriptural term 'Mentally Diseased' was very useful in showing the real meaning of the phrase and the comment that if there is a lot of flack/backlash, the organisation will not water down, but further clarify the use of the 1 Timothy 6:3,4 scripture.

Newspapers nearly always imply that we can't question or discuss anything about our faith and that all those leaving the Truth are ostracised and treated like apostates, which we know is not the case.

Let's hope and pray that if there is an investigation by the Police or whoever they've complained to, that we are exonerated and the 'offended complainers' are shown up for being so easily provoked (1 Cor 13:4,5 - Love ... does not become provoked) and jumping to offence before seeking for proper clarification (Ecclesiastes 7:9, Proverbs 18:13)).

Yes. You know, it's really funny that they think our organization is so wrong and yet they get so upset over what the WTS says! I used to be Baptist, but I couldn't care less if they called me "mentally diseased." I certainly wouldn't take it to the police! They are SO showing themselves up for the ding-bats they are.

[BlueRose]

Great also because the hoohar is a direct quotation from scripture so the bottom line is, any "investigation" (lol... yeah right) will involve taking the bible to court and the sooner that happens the sooner babylon will come tumbling down.

Ironically, I made a thread about the term "mentally diseased" being offensive not too long ago. One of the things I showed in that thread was that the NWT is the only bible that has the term "mentally diseased" and that in the original Greek text there is no mention of a person's mental state. Even in the "Kingdom Interlinear" the term "mentally diseased" isn't used. I have no idea why the word "mentally" was added when 1 Timothy 6:4 was translated, perhaps that is a question that will come up if this issue goes any further.

Are you suggesting that the NWT is WRONG or that it is inferior in its rendition to other translation?

Just looking for a little clarification of what you are saying.

Thanks

One Bible scholar (Jason BeDuhn) says that the NWT is the best translation available. Next in line is the New American Bible. Anyone who reads BeDuhn's book, "Truth in Translation," will see that his knowledge is impressive. The book is excellent. Perhaps Clifton will benefit from a look at that book.

[BlueRose]

Of course, this will all blow over once people realize we are condemning a course of action (apostasy), not a group of people (ex-members).

If any ex-members take offense then they are admitting they are in fact apostates committed to opposing the organization instead of moving on with their lives like they would if they were not mentally diseased.

Apostates =

Good one, Green!

[BlueRose]

I also have been studying Greek for the past 6 years and own several Greek Bibles.

Nice! We have something in common.

But how have you missed the fact that "mentally diseased" is an appropriate (at the least) and likely spot on (at the most) rendering of that passage?

I don't think it's appropriate because there's no reference to the person's mind or mental state in the Greek text. The phrase in question "ἀλλὰ νοσῶν περὶ ζητήσεις καὶ λογομαχίας" literally means "but sick with questions and arguments". Just because a person tends to ask questions(possibly pointless) and argue doesn't make them "mentally diseased". I believe the Common English Bible conveys the meaning behind this verse more accurately.

Timothy 6:4 that person is conceited. They don’t understand anything but have a sick obsession with debates and arguments. This creates jealousy, conflict, verbal abuse, and evil suspicions. (CBE)

Doesn't that rendering refer to the person's state of MIND? "Sick obsession" is a phrase describing the person's mind-set.

[BlueRose]

I must say I don't agree with Clifton, but don't agree with Bob either.

@ Clifton: I think as the July 15 Study WT brought out on page 16 paragraph 8 says, "let us be determined to remain loyal to Jehovah and to the organization that has a long record of quenching our thirst". Sometimes I think people get to caught up in deep study and leaning upon their own understanding. Are we now not going to have faith in the information provided by the faithful and discreet slave? Where did you get all the basic truths from?

@ Bob I think you where a little harsh in your last posting. I keep thinking of what the organization is always saying to us. Our conversations with each other should be for building up. The world puts us down enough. We need to be a refreshment to each other. Does such a small couple of words, "mental sickness", have to be such a controversial thing between brothers.

@ both of you. I am sorry if I offend but it was breaking my heart to see to brothers at such odds with each other. It almost seemed heated to me.

I agree with Bob.

[BlueRose]

if it is a mainstream newspaper...unless you read it how do you know what it says?...it could of been a positive article...if someone does not want to read newspapers that is a personal decision...

YaYa dear Sianrose! But what the slave is a mind? Perhaps it will be better to stop the reading when one hears the word apostate or Ex jw's? So bible say's: "but be babes as to badness" 1 Corinthias 14:20 So We do not want to know anything about the apostates?

True, genious. The second I see that an apostate is saying something, I'm gone. I don't want to read anything they have to say.

[BlueRose]

so everyone here...stopped reading at...

"A group of former Witnesses, based in Portsmouth, have made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article. Police have launched an investigation".

well to me that is not an everyday occurrence...like the apostates you get on the Internet....

I read it because I do not want to be told half a story by worldly relatives who will have read it...I will be ready for any point they want to make...

if articles about us by apostates ...start to be a normal occurrence in newspapers ...I will stop reading them...

and I have never seen an apostate on TV...whether it does not happen in the UK ...or I have missed it...

They've been on TV over here! I watched some of them BEFORE they were disfellowshipped, so I got the gist of what they were saying. But they NEVER have a valid point. They outright LIE every time! Some of them take a little bit of truth and twist it, like one said, "But he RAPED me!" Sob, sob. Her display was to bring down the full weight of the law against the Society, even though the rapist was dealt with by the congregation. They ALWAYS twist things and blatantly lie. We don't have to listen to them to be confident of that.

[BlueRose]

The trouble with "corrupted" thinking verses diseased is the contagious part.

Corruption is more of something that happens to you and just you, but diseased is something that is also contagious for others.

But in general "mental diseases" are not contagious anyway.

I think the translation is pretty much in the spirit of the original words, not that I've studied it but from all this discussion. Given the current climate of political correctness, an argument could be made to use illustrations of, I don't know, computer viruses or something. But I think this is one to leave in the hands of the writers.

I think the point was made by the WTS that : just as a physical disease may be contagious, so a spiritual disease would be also because of wanting to spread it to others.

[BlueRose]

I need to make a correction to this that I said earlier, especially since I go around gloating that translation is my forte. I will try to explain this without making too much of a mess out of it...

ἀλλὰ - but

νοσῶν - sick (metaphorically "mentally", "mental obsession" )

περὶ - about, concerning

ζητήσεις - questions

καὶ - and

λογομαχίας - word quarreling

I would translate this "but sick in the head because of questionings and disputes over words"

I made a mistake in my haste to type this post. Someone was kind enough to point out that νοσέω (noseō) in this passage is a verb. That is why the New World Translation uses translates this "being mentally diseased". So I should correct the way I said I would translate this above to something more along the line of "but is sick in the head because of questionings and disputes over words"

Some people like to make the claim that since noseō is a verb, and "mentally diseased" is a noun, that this is an improper translation. But this is a false and uneducated claim. Yes it is a verb ('to be') but based on a noun ('sick'). Does that sound a bit Greek to you? It is

1. This word is a participle - a word that shares some characteristics of both verbs and adjectives (verb: to be | adjective: sick/diseased).

2. It's a linking verb - a verb that implies a state of being or condition for the subject.

3. It's nominative - meaning that the adjective (sick/diseased) is not the object of the verb (to be) but another word for the subject (he).

4. The verb is in the present tense - meaning that the situation is current.

5. The verb is in the active voice - meaning the subject is doer of the action, not receiving the action.

Therefore, "He being mentally diseased" is a perfect choice on the part of the NWT translators. The phrase shares characteristics of both verbs and adjectives. "Mentally diseased" is a state of being and another word for the subject, linked by "being" which is both present and active.

But why add the "mental" part? Well, we've already been over that too many times already. The definition allows for it when the context demands it, as it does here. Most translations appropriately choose a rendering here that refers to the subjects mental state - it's not just the New World Translation.

Interestingly, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says of this "Noseo, 'to be sick', is used metaphorically of mental ailment in 1 Timothy 6:4"

So, in summary, we have numerous references and can probably keep digging up more and more even still that demonstrate that the claim that "only the NWT renders this in a way to suggest one's mental state" is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Of course, those who keep insisting that this is the case will continue to be blind to these facts, because they are mentally diseased, as the scripture states.

Just tossing in my 3 cents..... "Diseased" or "sick" are adjectives.