God's Name - Yahweh or Jehovah?

[M&M]

I've heard critics complain about he J and the V and either insist to use LORD or Yahweh. Many of these used translations that use J and/or V in other theophoric names. There real motive in complaining it to discredit JW's and Jehovah.

 

 

[EccentricM]

Yes, people get hung up on the little details as opposed to the real meat of what the message of the Bible actually is and the fact that we are actually being a people for his name. There are no other Christian denominations that are "known" for the use and glorifying of God's name. 

[Raven]

On JW.org, why is YHVH rendered as "YHWH" when explaining the tetragrammaton?

In doing further research I discovered that YHWH in Hebrew letters would look like this: יהווה (Read from right to left). While YHVH looks like this: יהוה ~ The Hebrew letter "ו" (Vav) is pronounced as a "v", as in "live", but changes to a "w" when it's a double Vav.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/gods-name/

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/good-news-from-god/who-is-god/video-gods-name/

[M&M]

2 hours ago, Bjern said:

On JW.org, why is YHVH rendered as "YHWH" when explaining the tetragrammaton?

In doing further research I discovered that YHWH in Hebrew letters would look like this: יהווה (Read from right to left). While YHVH looks like this: יהוה ~ The Hebrew letter "ו" (Vav) is pronounced as a "v", as in "live", but changes to a "w" when it's a double Vav.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/gods-name/

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/good-news-from-god/who-is-god/video-gods-name/

Does this from the Insight book help?

 

WAW
[ו].
The sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In pronunciation this letter corresponds generally to the English “w,” as in “wine”; at times, however, in modern Hebrew it is given the sound of English “v.” In this work it is transliterated as “w” (ו), “u” (וּ), and “oh” (וֹ). Apart from its use as a prefix, it is rarely used as an initial letter, usually being substituted for by the letter yohdh (י). In the Hebrew, it appears at the beginning of each of the eight verses of Psalm 119:41-48.
 

 

[Ahuvah]

On 6/11/2017 at 2:36 AM, EccentricM said:

Yes, people get hung up on the little details as opposed to the real meat of what the message of the Bible actually is and the fact that we are actually being a people for his name. There are no other Christian denominations that are "known" for the use and glorifying of God's name. 

Yup ... it's the USE of the name that is important, not hiding it because you are scared your pronunciation isn't quite right. Jehovah would have put it right if there was a essential reason to. (Maybe he has haha)

[Raven]

6 minutes ago, M&M said:

Does this from the Insight book help?

 

WAW
[ו].
The sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In pronunciation this letter corresponds generally to the English “w,” as in “wine”; at times, however, in modern Hebrew it is given the sound of English “v.” In this work it is transliterated as “w” (ו), “u” (וּ), and “oh” (וֹ). Apart from its use as a prefix, it is rarely used as an initial letter, usually being substituted for by the letter yohdh (י). In the Hebrew, it appears at the beginning of each of the eight verses of Psalm 119:41-48.
 

 

Ok, though I thought that the letter was called "Vav"...

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Bjern

[M&M]

In modern Hebrew, not ancient, right?

[Raven]

Just now, M&M said:

In modern Hebrew, not ancient, right?

Indeed, tho would W have later changed to V and have W as a secondary?

 

Here's another alef-bet chart, which includes the pronunciation (well the Modern pronunciation anyway).

 

[Thesauron]

There is an inconsistency I noticed several years ago but no one else seemed to care, until the experts in this documentary confirmed it.
 
If you look up "Jehovah" in any encyclopedia or reference work, you will read that it's an artificial form of the name. Ancient Jews wouldn't pronounce Jehovah's name, but replaced it with "Adonai" (the Lord) when reading the Scriptures. To remind them of that, the Soferim put the vowels of Adonai over the consonants of YHWH (in Hebrew, vowels are written as small dots upon or below the consonants). They claim that way the hybrid form "Jehovah" was formed. Even our publications have mentioned this explanation occasionally, no doubt trusting that scholars knew what they were talking about.
 
But there is a huge hole in this explanation: The vowels of Adonai are not e-o-a. They are a-o-a. If the hybrid form theory were true, the resulting name would have been Jahovah. How is it possible that, among so many scholars and experts, nobody ever noticed that? I guess the story fit so well their theories that no one questioned it.
 
So I don't believe "Jehovah" is a hybrid form accidentally made up by the Soferim when they put the vowels of Adonai over the letters of YHWH. Rather, I believe Jehovah is the original pronunciation of the Name that was faithfully preserved in the Hebrew text. The pronunciation of the name was still known in Jesus time, so there's no reason why it couldn't have been preserved at least among a group of scholars and copyists.

'Jehovah' is most certainly not the original pronunciation. It is the English pronunciation. In Swedish you say Jehova' with emphasis on the a, Norwegian is Jeho'va (with a long, open o, such as in 'hope ), Italian is Ge'ova. But guidance to the original pronunciation is preserved in the many biblical names that have been used through history from that time.


Johan

[Raven]

1 minute ago, Thesauron said:

'Jehovah' is most certainly not the original pronunciation. It is the English pronunciation. In Swedish you say Jehova' with emphasis on the a, Norwegian is Jeho'va (with a long, open o, such as in 'hope ), Italian is Ge'ova. But guidance to the original pronunciation is preserved in the many biblical names that have been used through history from that time.


Johan

It's not far off tho, as in Hebrew it's "Yehovah".

 

The simple fact is that different languages pronounce words and names differently. In Greek the Divine Name is Ιεχώβα (Iechova), in Chinese Mandarin it is 耶和华 (Yehehua), and in Japanese it is エホバ (Ehoba). So of course it's not surprising at all that English will have a distinct way of pronouncing the Divine Name as well.

[Raven]

An educational clip on pronouncing Vav in Modern Hebrew...

 

 

[Raven]

Also, here's a Wikipedia page on the letter (which they rendered "Waw"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_(letter)

If you scroll down to the section "Pronunciation in Modern Hebrew", you will see how accent markers also change the sound.

 

ו‎ ‎ = v as in "vote"

וו‎ ‎‎ = w as in "wall"

וּ‎ = u as in "glue"

וֹ‎ = o as in "no"

 

Jesus in Hebrew apparently uses וּ

[Ahuvah]

I learnt pitmans Shorthand, the vowel placements have a very similar process. As to where the vowels are place changes the whole word.

[carlos]

3 hours ago, Thesauron said:

'Jehovah' is most certainly not the original pronunciation. It is the English pronunciation. In Swedish you say Jehova' with emphasis on the a, Norwegian is Jeho'va (with a long, open o, such as in 'hope ), Italian is Ge'ova. But guidance to the original pronunciation is preserved in the many biblical names that have been used through history from that time.

2

Agreed. I didn't express myself accurately. When I wrote 'Jehovah' is quite probably the right pronunciation I should have written 'Yehowah' instead. My point wasn't about the J or the V, there's no question about those, but about the vowels you add to those consonants.

[Guri]

1 minute ago, carlos said:

Agreed. I didn't express myself accurately. When I wrote 'Jehovah' is quite probably the right pronunciation I should have written 'Yehowah' instead. My point wasn't about the J or the V, there's no question about those, but about the vowels you add to those consonants.

In some modern languages, for instance in Georgian, we pronounce God's name as it is written in Hebrew manuscript: 

Yehowah (in Georgian: იეჰოვა). 

 

[Raven]

1 minute ago, carlos said:

Agreed. I didn't express myself accurately. When I wrote 'Jehovah' is quite probably the right pronunciation I should have written 'Yehowah' instead. My point wasn't about the J or the V, there's no question about those, but about the vowels you add to those consonants.

In Modern Hebrew the Divine Name is pronounced with a "v" sound rather than a "w" sound. Is there evidence that this is a change from the original pronunciation?

[Guri]

13 minutes ago, Bjern said:

In Modern Hebrew the Divine Name is pronounced with a "v" sound rather than a "w" sound. Is there evidence that this is a change from the original pronunciation?

Bjern,

 

In Georgian (ვ)  V (W) is  pronounced exactly as in Hebrew.  

 

I wrote "W" only because thats how in our publications tetragrammaton is weitten with "W" not "V".  

Edited July 26, 2017 by Guri
Spelling and clarification

[Raven]

1 minute ago, Guri said:

Bjern,

 

In Georgian (ვ)  V (W) in pronounced exactly as in Hebrew.  

That is very cool ~ I did not know that. 

 

Here's the video on what is God's name, in Hebrew: https://www.jw.org/he/פרסומים/ספרים/לאלוהים-יש-חדשות-טובות-עבורך/מיהו-אלוהים/סרטון-שם-אלוהים/

[Ahuvah]

4 hours ago, Thesauron said:

'Jehovah' is most certainly not the original pronunciation. It is the English pronunciation. In Swedish you say Jehova' with emphasis on the a, Norwegian is Jeho'va (with a long, open o, such as in 'hope ), Italian is Ge'ova. But guidance to the original pronunciation is preserved in the many biblical names that have been used through history from that time.


Johan

The issue is, after watching this documentary though, is not whether Jehovah or Jeho'va or Ge'ova is correct, (they are all correct)  the issue is is Yahweh correct? Being only two syllables and is without the missing vowel that many think the word Adonai with the extra vowel led to 'Jehovah' rather than Yahweh, means that going back beyond Adonai we still arrive at Jehovah (or the Hebrew equivalent obviously) not Yahweh, because the third vowel predates any changes around the time they decided that Jehovah was too sacred to utter.

 

The use of Jehovah (and all it's counterparts) is more correct than Yahweh.

 

[Guri]

This is a old Hebrew Manuscript where you can see the Divine name with the vowels added to the tetragrammaton. Jewish scribes also have established a system of vowel points and accent marks. (As you can see in the image below). These accent marks served as a written aid in the reading and pronouncing of vowel sounds, whereas previously the pronunciation had been handed down by oral tradition. The viwels and accent marks on this manuscript makes tetragrammaton to read as: 

Yehovah (in English Jehovah): 

 

 

[Guri]

By the way, I don't think there exist a manuscript with vowel and accent marks which would make tetragrammaton to read as Yahwe.  If there is any, let anyone point on it for me I would be very grateful.  

[carlos]

5 hours ago, Bjern said:

Ok, though I thought that the letter was called "Vav"...

Both in the text and the appendix of the NWT is it called "Waw" (see for example the acrostic Psalms such as Psalm 25:5).

 

Pronunciation of Hebrew changed a lot as hundreds and thousands of years passed. The way Noah pronounced the Name (and the waw) may have been quite different than the way Moses, David or Jesus did.

 

2 minutes ago, Bjern said:

In Modern Hebrew the Divine Name is pronounced with a "v" sound rather than a "w" sound. Is there evidence that this is a change from the original pronunciation?

Apparently most scholars agree that waw was pronounced w in ancient times, but disagree as to when and how that changed. Some of the reasons they give are quite convincing. For example, waw was often used to represent the vowel u (the same as Y was used to represent i and H to represent a). Besides, in Arabic, which is very closed to Hebrew, that letter is a W, not a V.

 

42 minutes ago, Guri said:

This is a old Hebrew Manuscript where you can see the Divine name with the vowels added to the tetragrammaton. Jewish scribes also have established a system of vowel points and accent marks. (As you can see in the image below). These accent marks served as a written aid in the reading and pronouncing of vowel sounds, whereas previously the pronunciation had been handed down by oral tradition. The viwels and accent marks on this manuscript makes tetragrammaton to read as: 

Yehovah (in English Jehovah): 

Yes, Guri, this is what we are talking about. The problem with those manuscripts is that the accent marks were invented many centuries after the pronunciation of the Name was lost, so we don't know exactly where the vowels those Masoretes wrote come from. Most scholars state that the accent marks in the Tetragrammaton are those of Adonai, but I am challenging that view. My position is that the Name, even if forgotten by common people, was somehow preserved among the copyists and scholars and was correctly reflected in those manuscripts.

 

[carlos]

38 minutes ago, Guri said:

By the way, I don't think there exist a manuscript with vowel and accent marks which would make tetragrammaton to read as Yahwe.  If there is any, let anyone point on it for me I would be very grateful.  

The main arguments in favor of Yahweh that I know of are:

- The abbreviation Yah (as in Hallelujah or Isaiah, Jeremiah, or simply Yah in the Psalms). That seems to agree better with Yahweh than with Yehowah.

- Some Greek manuscripts contain God's name as  Iabe.

 

Both seem good arguments, yet I think most of the evidence points to Yehowah despite those.

[Thesauron]

The name יהוֹשָׁפָט begins with the same two letters as the Tetragrammaton, and most scholars are convinced the proper transliteration is Jehoshaphat or Yehoshafat. Another variety occurs in some translations - Josaphat - but that is from the Greek (Ἰωσαφάτ) via Latin.


Johan

[M&M]

17 hours ago, Thesauron said:

The name יהוֹשָׁפָט begins with the same two letters as the Tetragrammaton, and most scholars are convinced the proper transliteration is Jehoshaphat or Yehoshafat. Another variety occurs in some translations - Josaphat - but that is from the Greek (Ἰωσαφάτ) via Latin.


Johan

Hi Johan, did you see the video on   theophoric names at the top of this page?