Wooly Rhino find in Russian permafrost

[Shawnster]

8 hours ago, Beyond the Sky said:

So many extinct animals, I hope we get to see in the new world.

Jehovah allowed all these animals to go extinct.  In fact, he may have actually caused or intended most of these animals to become extinct. After all, most animals that are extinct died before Adam was created.  

 

As for the animals that man caused to go extinct like the passenger pigeon or the dodo, it may be possible to bring them back through selective breeding.  What science calls a species may be different than how Jehovah views animals according to their kinds.  Noah did not have millions of animals on the Ark. Many of the so called species are really from the same animal kinds that Noah saved and the variety of species is the result of nearly 5,000+ years of those animal kinds interbreeding.   Therefore, the genetic material still exists, it's just a matter of hitting the right breeding combination. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Shawnster

[Matthew]

Did you find any indication they were frozen at the same

Not really, just lots of articles about the permafrost melting, which is probably best discussed under another thread lol (what convinces you that the GT is near…)


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[Thesauron]

 
 
Majority of Animals and vegetation frozen in permafrost are result of the global flood, it makes perfect sense, i only base my information from what is found in our publications
 
 
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/ce
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/library/r1/lp-e/all-publications/awake/awake-1986/september-22

Why would they have had to die in a global flood?

Do you have any more recent references?

[Godskingdomrules]

On 8/10/2021 at 12:26 AM, Thesauron said:

Why would they have had to die in a global flood?

Do you have any more recent references?

Umm we don’t need anymore recent references my brother.

 

Dony forget this was a supernatural event just like the departing of the Red Sea which is beyond a scientific point of view.

 

 

[Thesauron]

Umm we don’t need anymore recent references my brother.
 
Dony forget this was a supernatural event just like the departing of the Red Sea which is beyond a scientific point of view.
 
 

It was, but let’s put it another way. If science say, these events with the animals in the permafrost happened 50 or 60’000 years ago with several thousands of years between them, do we have a biblical reason to say it wasn’t so? We rely on science that does not contradict the Bible, right!

[Shawnster]

1 hour ago, Godskingdomrules said:

Umm we don’t need anymore recent references my brother.

 

Do the references we have state that all animals found in the permafrost were the result of the flood?  What reason is there to conclude that all these animals died in the same event at the same time?  As Johan is pointing out, the Flood was a one-time event that happened at a specific moment in history.  All the animal remains from that event should date from the exact same time.  Even if science and their dating methods are off in relation to Bible chronology, their dating methods should still indicate the animals died at the same time.

[Godskingdomrules]

9 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Do the references we have state that all animals found in the permafrost were the result of the flood?  What reason is there to conclude that all these animals died in the same event at the same time?  As Johan is pointing out, the Flood was a one-time event that happened at a specific moment in history.  All the animal remains from that event should date from the exact same time.  Even if science and their dating methods are off in relation to Bible chronology, their dating methods should still indicate the animals died at the same time.

This is a quote out of our book “Life how did it get her by evolution or design”. Chapter 17 paragraph 9.

I think it fits the picture of a global flood well. If there were layers of permafrost underneath the top layer of frozen animals dating from a different time then I guess that could still fit in with a global flood or not.

What are yours thoughts on the matter?

 

 

 

And further evidence that a flood of immense proportions occurred in the not-too-distant past is the great number of fossils and carcasses deposited in icy, mucky dumps. The Saturday Evening Post noted: “Many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . . Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures . . . Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved.”⁠⁸

[Thesauron]

This is a quote out of our book “Life how did it get her by evolution or design”. Chapter 17 paragraph 9.
I think it fits the picture of a global flood well. If there were layers of permafrost underneath the top layer of frozen animals dating from a different time then I guess that could still fit in with a global flood or not.
What are yours thoughts on the matter?
 
 
 
And further evidence that a flood of immense proportions occurred in the not-too-distant past is the great number of fossils and carcasses deposited in icy, mucky dumps. The Saturday Evening Post noted: “Many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . . Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures . . . Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved.”⁠⁸

These mudslides tend to be surprising. But they are not signs of a flood, necessarily. And whatever wiped out that animal ought to have wiped out all the rest, but it did not. The mammoths, for instance, continued to live in the area until after the flood. One found in the permafrost carries marks of what seems to be human hunting.

[Godskingdomrules]

On 8/12/2021 at 2:22 PM, Thesauron said:

These mudslides tend to be surprising. But they are not signs of a flood, necessarily. And whatever wiped out that animal ought to have wiped out all the rest, but it did not. The mammoths, for instance, continued to live in the area until after the flood. One found in the permafrost carries marks of what seems to be human hunting.

Yes I can agree with this. It is hard finding recent information on this in JW library our publications on this are 70s to the 90s nevertheless the facts still stand that it was a global flood, the fact that so many nations around the world have a flood history.

It is hard find information on the dating of mammoths and other animals frozen solid in the permafrost, some articles are pro evolution others are pro creationism in which we don’t agree with either. 
One fact that stands out to me is what is mentioned in Genesis 8:22 “From now on…. the earth will never cease to have cold heat summer and winter. It is significant that this was mentioned after the flood meaning it is global so now the atmosphere has changed.

Nevertheless all the fossils of mammoths and other kinds aren’t always the result of a global flood, although the animals found in permafrost have subtropical vegetation found inside some of the stomachs which is interesting. Some are the result of a global flood namely the ones well preserved, others can be said to have died before or after the global flood.

 

[Thesauron]

Yes I can agree with this. It is hard finding recent information on this in JW library our publications on this are 70s to the 90s nevertheless the facts still stand that it was a global flood, the fact that so many nations around the world have a flood history.
It is hard find information on the dating of mammoths and other animals frozen solid in the permafrost, some articles are pro evolution others are pro creationism in which we don’t agree with either. 
One fact that stands out to me is what is mentioned in Genesis 8:22 “From now on…. the earth will never cease to have cold heat summer and winter. It is significant that this was mentioned after the flood meaning it is global so now the atmosphere has changed.
Nevertheless all the fossils of mammoths and other kinds aren’t always the result of a global flood, although the animals found in permafrost have subtropical vegetation found inside some of the stomachs which is interesting. Some are the result of a global flood namely the ones well preserved, others can be said to have died before or after the global flood.

 

But here’s the thing: when scientists say that they likely died this or that way, or at this or that time, we will have to ask ourselves if it contradicts what is clearly stated in the Bible. If not, we just have to accept it and move on. Scientists say these animals died several thousands of years ago, and thousands of years apart, and since it does not contradict the Bible, we have to say ”ok, that is possible.”

Your understanding of Genesis 8:22 is probably incorrect, but that is a subject for a whole different topic.

[carlos]

I have always had trouble to understand that example about frozen mammoths. This particular paragraph:

On 8/12/2021 at 2:22 AM, Godskingdomrules said:

. Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures . . . Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved.”⁠⁸

If those animals died drowned, would they be standing, with a last mouthful of food in their mouths, without any visible sign of violence? IMO that actually proves the opposite, that they didn't die in the flood. They were suddenly frozen, not drowned. I think that's the reason why those frozen mammoths have no longer been mentioned in our publications in relation with the flood for decades.

[Godskingdomrules]

18 hours ago, Thesauron said:

But here’s the thing: when scientists say that they likely died this or that way, or at this or that time, we will have to ask ourselves if it contradicts what is clearly stated in the Bible. If not, we just have to accept it and move on. Scientists say these animals died several thousands of years ago, and thousands of years apart, and since it does not contradict the Bible, we have to say ”ok, that is possible.”

Your understanding of Genesis 8:22 is probably incorrect, but that is a subject for a whole different topic.

Yes i agree with what you are saying. Although my understanding of Genesis 8:22 I could not find much resources on Jw library. The point that interest me on this subject is why did Jah say from now on the earth will never cease to have cold heat summer winter, was it because the earth had a different environment conducive with tropical vegetation found in mammoths stomachs meaning the atmosphere was different aka water canopy. But I know this has been discussed in another previous thread.

[carlos]

15 minutes ago, Godskingdomrules said:

Yes i agree with what you are saying. Although my understanding of Genesis 8:22 I could not find much resources on Jw library. The point that interest me on this subject is why did Jah say from now on the earth will never cease to have cold heat summer winter, was it because the earth had a different environment conducive with tropical vegetation found in mammoths stomachs meaning the atmosphere was different aka water canopy. But I know this has been discussed in another previous thread.

(Genesis 8:22) From now on, the earth will never cease to have seed-sowing and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night.”

 

As you say, Shannon, there is not much info about this verse in our publications. So this is only my take on it: At first sight that scripture could be understood as implying that there were no seasons before the Flood. Yet the same scripture adds "and day and night". Does that mean there was no day and night before the Flood? Obviously not, because Genesis 1:3-5 shows that day and night exist since the very first creative day.

 

So that promise doesn't seem to be related to how conditions had changed before and after the Flood. I think it rather has to do with the conditions during the Flood itself. That fits in well with the previous verse "So Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground on man’s account, for the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again will I strike down every living thing as I have done." During the Flood and some months afterwards, there was no sowing or harvesting, no seasons, you couldn't even tell day from night since it was so dark. But Jehovah says that, from now on, that will never happen again. The natural cycles of sowing/harvest, summer/winter, day/night, that already existed before the Flood would never be interrupted again.

 

As I said, this is only a personal conclusion but it seems a reasonable one to me. What do you think?

 

[Godskingdomrules]

16 hours ago, carlos said:

 

I have always had trouble to understand that example about frozen mammoths. This particular paragraph:

On 8/12/2021 at 10:22 AM, Godskingdomrules said:

. Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures . . . Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved.”⁠⁸

If those animals died drowned, would they be standing, with a last mouthful of food in their mouths, without any visible sign of violence? IMO that actually proves the opposite, that they didn't die in the flood. They were suddenly frozen, not drowned. I think that's the reason why those frozen mammoths have no longer been mentioned in our publications in relation with the flood for decades.

 

All that I can glean From this subject is that when Jah brought the flood upon mankind the polar regions were quickly frozen resulting in mammoths still chewing digesting food but of course others will have a different narrative. The main point of this forum discussion is the fact it was a global flood meaning it would have some impact on polar regions. A quick freeze momentum and a gradual Build up of ice and snow. That’s the only thing I can relate to a quick freeze and preserving these animals found in permafrost. I mean it’s not all that hard to believe just One year of inundation 1 year of underwater then 100s and thousands or 4000 years of recovery and then understanding C4 dating that water infects the dating process?im mean they have to have a different formula when dating the Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere so there is much conjecture.

 

 

 

[Thesauron]

Yes i agree with what you are saying. Although my understanding of Genesis 8:22 I could not find much resources on Jw library. The point that interest me on this subject is why did Jah say from now on the earth will never cease to have cold heat summer winter, was it because the earth had a different environment conducive with tropical vegetation found in mammoths stomachs meaning the atmosphere was different aka water canopy. But I know this has been discussed in another previous thread.

Imagine being in the vessel floating on top of the water there with Noah. For a very long time, there is no visible difference between the seasons, really. Water everywhere. So, it seems Jehovah is promising that from now on, day and night, season changes, that he had created long ago in Ge 1:14, would not be interrupted like they were during this period of the flood. Why? Because no more would mankind be subjected to such a bad deluge.

Psalm 74:17 says that Jehovah made summer and winter, and for all we know he has been resting with creation regarding earth now during this millenniums-long Sabbath. So they were made before that.

[Thesauron]

All that I can glean From this subject is that when Jah brought the flood upon mankind the polar regions were quickly frozen resulting in mammoths still chewing digesting food but of course others will have a different narrative. The main point of this forum discussion is the fact it was a global flood meaning it would have some impact on polar regions. A quick freeze momentum and a gradual Build up of ice and snow. That’s the only thing I can relate to a quick freeze and preserving these animals found in permafrost. I mean it’s not all that hard to believe just One year of inundation 1 year of underwater then 100s and thousands or 4000 years of recovery and then understanding C4 dating that water infects the dating process?im mean they have to have a different formula when dating the Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere so there is much conjecture.
 
 
 

Scientists say the ice is much older than that, and it makes sense, even though their dating processes might be imperfect. It is also not contrary to the Bible. The Bible does not discuss the frozen areas of the poles at all.

[Shawnster]

39 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

Scientists say the ice is much older than that, and it makes sense, even though their dating processes might be imperfect. It is also not contrary to the Bible. The Bible does not discuss the frozen areas of the poles at all.

I would not say it's contrary to the Bible.  Just because the Bible doesn't mention the poles does not make @Godskingdomrulescomment contrary or in contradiction.  The Bible doesn't mention North or South America, either, but those regions are not contrary to the scriptures.

 

The idea of animals living in the polar regions and dying in the Flood is in harmony with our understanding of the scriptures.  The fact we used the mammoth quick frozen with food in it's mouth as evidence of a global Flood indicates such an idea has merit. The Bible does not describe much in the way of global weather conditions as the rain fell and floodwaters deluged the Earth. 

[Bruceq]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0991J76GG

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393452323344?hash=item5b9b960210:g:iBgAAOSwRb5g9bBI

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2. DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE:  WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY SAY?

3. TESTIMONIAL EVIDENCE:  WORLDWIDE TRADITIONS OF A GLOBAL DELUGE

4. ANOMALIES ARE THE GATEWAY TO DISCOVERY

5. FOSSIL EVIDENCE OF CATASTROPHE

6. GLOBAL EVIDENCE OF DISASTER - THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL

7. PLANETARY AMNESIA –  HIDDEN CLUES OF A MIRROR FROM OUR PAST

8. THE DRAGON FROM THE PLEIADES - THE PROGENITOR

9. COSMIC FOOTPRINTS ON THE SANDS OF TIME

10. THE PROGENITOR: THE HARBINGER OF DOOM IDENTIFIED!

11. WHAT DOES THE GLOBAL FLOOD MEAN FOR US TODAY?

This book answers questions such as:
•         WHY ARE THERE OVER 500 STORIES ABOUT A GLOBAL FLOOD FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD?

•    WHY DID MAMMOTHS AND OTHER FAUNA FREEZE SO QUICKLY WHILE THEY WERE STILL EATING PEACEFULLY IN ONLY CERTAIN PARTS OF THE ARCTIC CIRCLE?

•    WHY DO PYRAMIDS ON OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE WORLD ALL HAVE AN ORIGIN RELATED TO THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY?

•    WHAT EVIDENCE SEEM TO INDICATE WHAT THE CAUSE WAS OF THE GLOBAL DELUGE?

•    WHY DOES THE TOPOGRAPHY OF THE EARTH HAVE CRACKS AND MISSING SECTIONS LIKE IT WAS ATTACKED?

•    WHY IS THERE A CRACK ENCIRCLING THE ENTIRE WORLD LIKE THE SEAM OF A BASEBALL?

•    WHAT MEANING DOES THE GLOBAL FLOOD HAVE FOR US TODAY?

•    HOW CAN WE HAVE A FUTURE WITH NO MORE SUFFERING, NO MORE DEATH, NO MORE FEAR OF COMETS, A RETURN OF OUR LOVED ONES WHO HAVE DIED TO A PARADISE RESTORED HERE ON EARTH WHERE PEOPLE CAN LIVE FOREVER?
 

[Thesauron]

I would not say it's contrary to the Bible.  Just because the Bible doesn't mention the poles does not make [mention=10278]Godskingdomrules[/mention]comment contrary or in contradiction.  The Bible doesn't mention North or South America, either, but those regions are not contrary to the scriptures.
 
The idea of animals living in the polar regions and dying in the Flood is in harmony with our understanding of the scriptures.  The fact we used the mammoth quick frozen with food in it's mouth as evidence of a global Flood indicates such an idea has merit. The Bible does not describe much in the way of global weather conditions as the rain fell and floodwaters deluged the Earth. 

That’s not what I meant. What I meant was that the scientific conclusion is not contrary to the Bible. Animals clearly lived near the polar region, but much earlier than the flood. This is no contradiction with the Bible account. We badly want these animals in the permafrost to have died in the flood. Science disagrees and gives dates that are not necessarily contrary to the bible account. And the Bible does not discuss the polar regions with regards to the flood that they were created by it, so should we?

[Shawnster]

Ah, I totally misunderstood 

 

3 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Science disagrees and gives dates that are not necessarily contrary to the bible account.

However, science also disagrees about man's creation and gives dates that are definitely contrary to the Bible account. Obviously something has affected their measuring data.  This is the same measuring data used on animal records.  If the data is off when it comes to the human record, it should be off by the same amount for the animal record. 

 

It's not logical or reasonable to say scientists dates are right for animal remains but wrong for human remains. 

[Thesauron]

Ah, I totally misunderstood 
 
However, science also disagrees about man's creation and gives dates that are definitely contrary to the Bible account. Obviously something has affected their measuring data.  This is the same measuring data used on animal records.  If the data is off when it comes to the human record, it should be off by the same amount for the animal record. 
 
It's not logical or reasonable to say scientists dates are right for animal remains but wrong for human remains. 

It is true that their measuring methods are imperfect, but when they come to results that are not contrary to the Bible, all we can say is “perhaps it is so” and move on.

[Godskingdomrules]

22 hours ago, carlos said:

During the Flood and some months afterwards, there was no sowing or harvesting, no seasons, you couldn't even tell day from night since it was so dark. But Jehovah says that, from now on, that will never happen again. The natural cycles of sowing/harvest, summer/winter, day/night, that already existed before the Flood would never be interrupted again.

 

As I said, this is only a personal conclusion but it seems a reasonable one to me. What do you think?

Yes that seems logical. The GB have not commented on that scripture except in terms of talking about seasons, thats all I could find in our publications. Yes so there probably no need to read to much into it, thanks.

[Godskingdomrules]

15 hours ago, Thesauron said:

It is true that their measuring methods are imperfect, but when they come to results that are not contrary to the Bible, all we can say is “perhaps it is so” and move on.

Yes I can agree with you here, Job 38:4 „where were you when I founded the earth, tell me if you think you understand“.  We weren’t there to know everything that happened, what we do know is it did happen as Jesus mentioned Just as the days of Noah were so presence of the son of man will be“ Matt 24:37, and a flood history in many cultures around the world. I guess we can leave the whole C4 dating to rest.