Some Amazing Science Stuff

[PottersClay]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22996054

Now most of this article went over my head, but I think I got the main points.

Firstly this is by no means established fact and is under heavy debate, though this new research has boosted the theory with some evidence to back it up.

Secondly, assuming the research is correct, then plants are operating in a way that science itself struggles to understand and in an environment where such operation would not be expected.

So correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the Photosythesis being done by plants is actually even more amazing than first thought. Light energy upon reaching the plant has to be delivered to an "energy harvesting machine" in the plant to be converted into chemical energy, this is already accepted scientific fact. What the research suggests however is that the delivery process of the light energy (in the form of photons) is super efficient and adaptable. The photons are delivered down the path that is most efficient, despite the fact that, due to environmental variables, the most efficent path can and will change often. The photons are also able to establish the most efficient path by means of a (theorised?) quantum mechanism known as 'superposition' which is basically the ability of the particle to be in several places at once, or in this case to travel every path at once, establish the most efficient and travel down only that one.

I was proud of myself for making the connection to the Schrodinger's Cat paradox, which in a nutshell shows that an object (in this case a cat) can exist in several states (in this case both dead and alive) however once observed it exists in only one state (either dead or alive).

Linking it back, much like the cat is both dead and alive, the photon has travelled down every path, however in actuality it travels down only one, much like the cat is only one thing, either dead or alive, not both.

It is mind boggling and awe-inspiring. Forgive the use of the term but its like the photon in the plant is using magic.

Go ahead householder! Just try and explain how that evolved with no guiding force or influence.

For those of you whose knowledge in this area surpasses mine (which is probably the majority of you) feel free to correct me or to add something I have missed. Also my understanding of quantum physicis isthat basically its physics but dealing with undefinable quantities?

[ReadYourBible]

Great article, thanks for the share!

 

A few things that sprang to mind upon reading this were 

 

1.  What was the wavelength of the laser, and what type was it?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laser_types because according to the next link    there's a specific wavelength that Chlorophyll A & B will pick up, not to mention other accessory pigments present....see the link below to get an idea of where the wavelengths are on the spectrum

2.  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/biology/ligabs.html

3.  These wavelengths were shot at single molecules within the light harvesting machinery, can a single molecule really describe the whole?  (I'm thinking probably not, due to those other pigments being present - but what do I know?). 

 

Quantum mechanics is a subset of physics which provides a mathematical explanation of what is happening to a photon.  We're taught in most physics classes that photons are discrete packets of energy, that behave both as a particle, and as a wave (fascinating stuff to be sure).  Wikipedia states that there are some properties that are observable that only occur at very low or very high energies or temperatures.  

 

So to me this suggests that I need more information about the type of laser used, because that's where my low or high energy is coming from.  They've also indicated this set of experiments occurred at room temperature as well.  Unfortunately in nature we rarely see the conditions of room temperature exist.   

 

Additionally, sunlight is variable (soooooo very variable), it depends on the angle, the location,  the time of day, the cloud cover (this is not a comprehensive list, there are still many more considerations)  The laser would not have this variability.  So can we actually say that plants are doing this in the course of their 'normal' day?  

 

Extremely interesting research (I'll go download the report so I can take a look at the supplementary information --- if you want to read it, let me know and I'll send it to you if you send me your e-mail via private message).  

 

I am by no means an expert myself, so I may need to revise my questions after having read the whole article.  

 

The amazing part of this article to me is that that the process seemingly accesses several pathways at once.  "What you see here is this photon comes in, and it sees many energy pathways," explained Prof van Hulst.  

 

Then the fact that it then 'chooses' the most efficient path makes me start thinking of concentration gradients, resistance values due to temperature, even the size of the vessel it is travelling through.

 

I don't know quite how to explain it, but let me give it a try.  When you run copper wire, there are certain aspects of that copper wire that need to be considered (gauge, thickness etc) and based on these parameters flow of energy will either be restricted or it will be funnelled....obviously plants are not metal, but maybe their vessels behave in a similar manner.

 

Gotta go read it, I'm certain there will be more info.  

Edited June 21, 2013 by cerebral ecstasy

[ReadYourBible]

I can't seem to pull up the report through my database, nor journals.    Will keep trying, the official title is:

 

QUANTUM COHERENT ENERGY TRANSFER OVER VARYING PATHWAYS IN SINGLE LIGHT-HARVESTING COMPLEXES

Science 21 June 2013: 
Vol. 340 no. 6139 pp. 1448-1451DOI:10.1126/science.1235820

[jayrtom]

On quantum description of nature there is no such thing as a "path" which is a classical concept. In a macroscopic world (the one we see with our naked eyes) if we through a ball with a known speed and measure it's initial and final position, we would be sure that the ball was in a specific position in space at any giving moment. All of the positions make the path of the ball.

As for the photon, it only has specific positions in space when we specifically choose to measure those positions. What does have a path is the thing that is called the probability wave. This thing is something that expands to the entire universe and describes for each available position, the probability we have to find the photon there. As it is a wave it behaves like a wave. Imagine you through a stone to a lake. It then produces a wave. If you put in the waves path two possible directions, the wave will divide itself and will give origin to two resultant waves. The configuration of the possible outcomes will raise different waves.

In the probability wave for the photon, it will also divide itself and produce as many new waves as the available possibilities. Eventually this waves will interfere with each other as the waves in water giving a resultant wave that describes the probability to find the photon at any giving point. There will be a way inside the plant that has more probability to find the photon there but all the other paths will have probabilities also.

this probability wave collapses into a singularity in a specific position if we will go there measure the position of the photon. But then all the quantum effects restart.

The question is that it is meaningless to ask which path the photon took because that concept don't exist. So it doesn't make sense to say that the photon took the best path there was

There are lots of scientists that talk about the spooky effects of quantum mechanics (the majority) because they say that when we don't measure the photon it really doesn't exist as such... All there is is just a mathematical wave of probabilities, not just a mathematical description but really all there is - this is a non local and non deterministic description of the world that is the established theory of quantum mechanics created by scientists like Paul Dirac, Niels Bohr, Heisenberg, Von Neumman...

But there are a few unknown scientists that picked the work of David Bohm on hidden variables that have different views (and more in agreement with what we believe) That is the local and not deterministic view of nature. It describes exactly the same phenomenon as the traditional quantum mechanics but in a way that doesn't involve any kind of spooky effects or magical alike explanations.

It marvelously let's us understand how Jehovah can make anything he wants and still avoid a world that is purely deterministic, that is, a world where everything in the future is a mere consequence of everything in the past... The destiny that some believe.

May be when I have some time I can explain better

I must say that in more than 20 years I never found anyone that would have any interest in talking about quantum phenomenon

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[Musky]

May be when I have some time I can explain better

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Please don't!

[jayrtom]

Please don't!

Yeah... Probably won't...

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[ReadYourBible]

It marvelously let's us understand how Jehovah can make anything he wants and still avoid a world that is purely deterministic, that is, a world where everything in the future is a mere consequence of everything in the past... The destiny that some believe.

I must say that in more than 20 years I never found anyone that would have any interest in talking about quantum phenomenon

 

And to think what we think we 'know', is mere foolishness to Jehovah.   I imagine that Jehovah would laugh at our mathematical concepts, our attempts to explain his creation.   Can you imagine being privy to all the information?  My head spins, and it creates in me a further sense of awe over his immense power!

 

I've always been interested in quantum phenomena (not that I could comprehend it all) because of how seemingly solid particles can pass through articles as though they're not there.  Quantum tunnelling is an example of this.  

 

I heard it described as bouncing a soccer ball against a wall 100 times and 1 or 2 of those times it will go through the wall.  This excites me to no end, because I think about what Jehovah can do with it.  

 

There's evidence that suggests that this is part of phenomena such as nuclear fusion, which we see in the sun.  Maybe this is how his angels move about  (okay, I'm going to stop speculating now)

[jayrtom]

And to think what we think we 'know', is mere foolishness to Jehovah. I imagine that Jehovah would laugh at our mathematical concepts, our attempts to explain his creation. Can you imagine being privy to all the information? My head spins, and it creates in me a further sense of awe over his immense power!

I've always been interested in quantum phenomena (not that I could comprehend it all) because of how seemingly solid particles can pass through articles as though they're not there. Quantum tunnelling is an example of this.

I heard it described as bouncing a soccer ball against a wall 100 times and 1 or 2 of those times it will go through the wall. This excites me to no end, because I think about what Jehovah can do with it.

There's evidence that suggests that this is part of phenomena such as nuclear fusion, which we see in the sun. Maybe this is how his angels move about (okay, I'm going to stop speculating now)

Quantum tunneling works because of the probability wave I talked above

We trough a particle against a "wall" after started its movement it becomes a wave of probabilities. Because the mathematical equations predict a low but still accountable probability of the particle being found after the "wall" if we put a metal detector on that position it will detect particles if we trough enough shots at it. The center of the wave touches the wall but it's boundaries goes beyond that limit.

The way the angels travel at instantaneous speed or appear and disappear can be well explained (at least in a way that makes sense) by thinking that they leave in a higher dimension level.

Take for instance a sheet of paper that extends indefinitely and imagine the paper surface as being all there is. I mean, there is no concept of up and down, just let, right, front and back. Now imagine a dot that leaves in this world... He can't see us because he can't look "up"... But we can see everything that happens there... I mean really everything. In this world, if the Dot A builds a circle and puts some secret inside before closing the secret, no other dot in that world will be able to see that... But we will see the secret because this world is fully open to us (to take a grasp of what I mean, imagine being in a labyrinth where you can only have a 2 dimensional view). By the same reasoning, we can hide a secret inside a fully closed and unbreakable box, but for someone in a higher dimension this box would be fully opened! This explains why there is no hidden place from Jehovah... For things in our mind or heart we can explain by assuming that Jehovah is in a even higher dimension than the angels... and that they can't hide anything from Jehovah either

Now keep imagining the same sheet world... We can pick a pen and draw a Dot B... For Dot A that would look like that Dot B just appeared there instantly... Than we can erase Dot B and draw anywhere else... And note that when we are moving the pen in the air (our world) we are not moving in the sheet world time reference... So if we draw, erase and draw again... That would be all instantaneous for Dot A!

Now... There are even more possibilities of understanding spiritual things with this analogy... But I don't want to upset Chuck

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Edited June 21, 2013 by jayrtom

[Julsey]

You guys are beyond me.  LOL!

 

All I want to know is, can one of you build me a transporter in the new system? 

[Musky]

Ask jayrtom, he even knows how Angels travel! 

[tekmantwo]

You guys are beyond me.  LOL!

 

All I want to know is, can one of you build me a transporter in the new system? 

We could do that now...but your gonna need a bit of kit..

 

Kale auto has what you need....http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=21

[ReadYourBible]

Ask jayrtom, he even knows how Angels travel! 

We both thought it, and it's on the internet ...........so it must be true!!!    

 

I should probably behave now.    

[ReadYourBible]

There are even more possibilities of understanding spiritual things with this analogy... But I don't want to upset Chuck Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

The problem here is that it's sheer speculation, interesting to think about, but we could be wrong (and likely are) on so many levels ;)  (even the higher dimension ones)

 

One thing I've always thought about, was about how Jehovah exists outside of time, since time is a man made invention, and he speaks to us in terms that we can understand via the bible.  He's stooped to our level so that we may have a base understanding, enough to know where we need to go, and how to get there.  The rest I suspect will be revealed after perfection.  

 

No where in the bible does it say that Jehovah wouldn't have given us more knowledge had Adam and Eve not been complete tools (in fact it says the opposite, in particular that if we keep asking for wisdom we'd receive it) so for those of us who have these desires to know Jehovah's ability to create and to peer into these works, I don't see why he wouldn't allow us to once we've got our minds on straight.  

 

Right now, the potential for that understanding to create all sorts of problems is very evident.   I look at the invention of the nuclear bomb.  While I give some credit where credit is due, man in his infancy (because that's where we truly are) has no comprehension on what his or her inventions will be used for - back to that no right to direct our steps.  

 

You can be certain Oppenheimer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer  had misgivings, but  you can see an overall influence of false reasoning throughout this cited work above.  

 

James 1:22 certainly applies, as does 2 Corinthians 11:15 and similarly Col 2:8

 

I think it's for good reason why Mr. Musky there keeps a watchful borg eye on this thread, because he's already arrived at the same conclusion as I have.

Edited June 22, 2013 by cerebral ecstasy

[jayrtom]

Ask jayrtom, he even knows how Angels travel!

Of course I was just speculating

Nonetheless I believe that, as Jehovah created the laws of physics, everything that happens happens according to this laws. Even all the mirscles did... We just don't know how (and may never know)

And that speculative illustration above is just an example that makes sense in that context.

Now if you are Dot C and I Dot A and I just explained to you a possible way why Dot B as appeared and disappeared I would have done that using a line world analogy.

"See C... in this line world, there is no left and right, just front and back "

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[jayrtom]

You guys are beyond me. LOL!

All I want to know is, can one of you build me a transporter in the new system?

I promise you Julsey, if we meet in the new world I will build you a wooden cottage and you will move... Even if I'll need to pull it

unless offcourse anyone do it first for you... Being so easy ;)

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[jayrtom]

The problem here is that it's sheer speculation, interesting to think about, but we could be wrong (and likely are) on so many levels ;) (even the higher dimension ones)

One thing I've always thought about, was about how Jehovah exists outside of time, since time is a man made invention, and he speaks to us in terms that we can understand via the bible. He's stooped to our level so that we may have a base understanding, enough to know where we need to go, and how to get there. The rest I suspect will be revealed after perfection.

No where in the bible does it say that Jehovah wouldn't have given us more knowledge had Adam and Eve not been complete tools (in fact it says the opposite, in particular that if we keep asking for wisdom we'd receive it) so for those of us who have these desires to know Jehovah's ability to create and to peer into these works, I don't see why he wouldn't allow us to once we've got our minds on straight.

Right now, the potential for that understanding to create all sorts of problems is very evident. I look at the invention of the nuclear bomb. While I give some credit where credit is due, man in his infancy (because that's where we truly are) has no comprehension on what his or her inventions will be used for - back to that no right to direct our steps.

You can be certain Oppenheimer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer had misgivings, but you can see an overall influence of false reasoning throughout this cited work above.

James 1:22 certainly applies, as does 2 Corinthians 11:15 and similarly Col 2:8

I think it's for good reason why Mr. Musky there keeps a watchful borg eye on this thread, because he's already arrived at the same conclusion as I have.

time can be understandable through the same analogy. Back to the paper world, if we stacked several sheets of paper on top of each other each one of them would be a moment in time... It would flow upwards.

Time can be a dimension higher than the angels dimension or parallel... But Jehova's dimension is above all that... He created all the dimensions last than him... So nothing is hidden to him, not in the space not time.

He can look trough all those sheets of paper and see it all!

In the future, he can rip off all the sheets of paper that made us cry and we won't remember them nomore... Just like he promised

He can look upwards in time and see everything that will happen

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[Julsey]

We could do that now...but your gonna need a bit of kit..

 

Kale auto has what you need....http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=21

 

Oh, dear...That is definitely not in the budget! 

[Julsey]

Of course I was just speculating

Nonetheless I believe that, as Jehovah created the laws of physics, everything that happens happens according to this laws. Even all the mirscles did... We just don't know how (and may never know)

And that speculative illustration above is just an example that makes sense in that context.

Now if you are Dot C and I Dot A and I just explained to you a possible way why Dot B as appeared and disappeared I would have done that using a line world analogy.

"See C... in this line world, there is no left and right, just front and back "

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Are we talking about time travel here?  Is this a 'Fringe' event?<g>

[Julsey]

I promise you Julsey, if we meet in the new world I will build you a wooden cottage and you will move... Even if I'll need to pull it

unless offcourse anyone do it first for you... Being so easy ;)

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Wooden cottage?  You mean, like a trailer?  LOL. 

[1gemstone]

           

[jayrtom]

Wooden cottage? You mean, like a trailer? LOL.

Sorry... I was thinking one thing in Portuguese and wrote another in English.... I meant "carriage"... You wanted a transporter...

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[jayrtom]

Are we talking about time travel here? Is this a 'Fringe' event?

Nop!

Just a way of visualize that things that some people call fairytales (non belivers of course) can be explained scientifically ;)

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[Julsey]

Sorry... I was thinking one thing in Portuguese and wrote another in English.... I meant "carriage"... You wanted a transporter...

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Ahhhhhh....Now, carriage I understand...but you know what kind of transporter I'm talking about.<G>

[1gemstone]

you mean one of these???? 

[jayrtom]

you mean one of these????

Is that the transportation from star track?

It has already been done the teleportation of one atom from Paris to NY... But don't know about an entire human being

I've seen the movie "the fly", from the sixties and I don't want to end up like that... with a fly had

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