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I was thinking about Einstein's equation recently. I have heard brothers use it to explain how Jehovah could use his "dynamic energy" to produce matter in creating the Universe, but I have realised that this cannot be the case.

If we posit the big bang and go back in time to the start of the universe, then we reach the "singularity" at which point space is curved infinitely and contains no space, time, matter nor energy. Therefore, energy itself would have to be brought into existence as the universe is created.

As Jehovah exists completely outside of the physical universe, including its matter and energy, He must have used his holy spirit in some other way to produce it. He had already created other life forms, spirit beings, and these are not material beings so not a transfer of energy to matter.

The universe must have been created "ex nihilo", out of nothing.

He uses his "dynamic energy" in sustaining the universe, as Isaiah states.

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I may be one of those brothers ;)

I was thinking about Einstein's equation recently. I have heard brothers use it to explain how Jehovah could use his "dynamic energy" to produce matter in creating the Universe, but I have realised that this cannot be the case.

If we posit the big bang and go back in time to the start of the universe, then we reach the "singularity" at which point space is curved infinitely and contains no space, time, matter nor energy.

The singularity you refer to is, by definition, a point where the mathematical foundation of the theory can’t be applicable. So, you can’t use the theory that predicts the existence of the singularity to extrapolate conclusions of what that singularity is or isn’t!

For instance, there is a mathematical foundation for the operation of division (a/b) – But take the example of “b” being zero. That leads to a singularity! You can’t use the mathematical foundations of the division to extrapolate conclusions of the nature of that singularity. You have to create another theory to embrace and resolve that singularity

For the case of singularities predicted by the general theory of relativity of Enstein (E=MC^2 was from the special theory of relativity) there is no new theory to explain those singularities.

But you can take the case of a black hole, one of such singularities. We now know that a black hole is not an infinitely deep hole from where nothing can come out, nor is it an infinitely small point (see the video I posted on the youtube classics thread). In those cases the escape velocity to leave the surface of that body is superior to the speed of light so not even light can escape from there… but indeed something goes out, it’s the black hole radiation (we don’t need to talk about it here)

The example of the black hole is good to understand big bang because there, near the surface of the deceased star, the macroscopic world (governed by general T. of R.) is mixed up with the microscopic world (governed by quantum mechanics)

Both theories produce excellent experimental results but they can’t be both used to describe that mix described above. That’s way the “holy Graal” of physics is to find the unification theory, one that supposedly describes both worlds, macro and micro. That is the same as a theory that unifies the 4 fundamental forces of nature – Curiosly remembering the 4 attributes of Jehovah and the fact that the holy spirit is the active FORCE of Jehovah

So, in the beginning, before the explosion of big bang we had that mixture of macro and micro behavior – THERE IS NO CURRENT THEORY that describes that context so we can’t use the current theories and say that it was this or that.

One thing is certain for me, the active force of Jehova can well be that unified force that encompasses the 4 known fundamental forces : Electromagnectic, nuclear week, nuclear strong and gravitational

By tweaking those 4 forces Jehovah could create everything

Therefore, energy itself would have to be brought into existence as the universe is created.

As Jehovah exists completely outside of the physical universe, including its matter and energy, He must have used his holy spirit in some other way to produce it. He had already created other life forms, spirit beings, and these are not material beings so not a transfer of energy to matter.

Jehovah exists outside of the physical world but interacts with it using his holy spirit. He is the one who created the physical world so there are no boundaries to him

*** w11 2/15 pp. 6-7 Holy Spirit—At Work in Creation! ***

The Miracle of Creation

3 How the universe came to be is explained in the Bible’s opening words: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Gen. 1:1) Starting with no preexisting material, Jehovah used his holy spirit—his powerful active force—to create the physical heavens, the earth, and everything else in the universe. A human craftsman uses his hands and tools to make things, but God sends forth holy spirit to accomplish his great works.

4 The Scriptures figuratively refer to holy spirit as God’s “finger.” (Luke 11:20; Matt. 12:28) And “the work of his hands”—what Jehovah created by means of his holy spirit—brings him great glory. “The heavens are declaring the glory of God,” sang the psalmist David, “and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.” (Ps. 19:1) Indeed, physical creation testifies to the awesome power of God’s holy spirit. (Rom. 1:20) How does it do so?

God’s Limitless Power

5 Our unimaginably vast universe gives evidence that Jehovah’s power and energy are inexhaustible. (Read Isaiah 40:26.) Modern science is aware that matter can be changed into energy and energy into matter. Our sun, a star, provides an example of matter being turned into energy. Every second, the sun converts about four million tons of matter into sunlight and other forms of radiant energy. The small fraction of that energy that reaches us is sufficient to sustain life on the earth. Obviously, tremendous power and energy were required to create not just the sun but also all the other billions of stars. Jehovah possesses the energy that was needed—and much more.

(Isaiah 40:26) 26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name. Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing.

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I was thinking about Einstein's equation recently. I have heard brothers use it to explain how Jehovah could use his "dynamic energy" to produce matter in creating the Universe, but I have realised that this cannot be the case.

If we posit the big bang and go back in time to the start of the universe, then we reach the "singularity" at which point space is curved infinitely and contains no space, time, matter nor energy. Therefore, energy itself would have to be brought into existence as the universe is created.

As Jehovah exists completely outside of the physical universe, including its matter and energy, He must have used his holy spirit in some other way to produce it. He had already created other life forms, spirit beings, and these are not material beings so not a transfer of energy to matter.

The universe must have been created "ex nihilo", out of nothing.

He uses his "dynamic energy" in sustaining the universe, as Isaiah states.

 

(Genesis 1:1) . . .In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . .

 

Since this statement is a bit expansive/vague/ambiguous/all-encompassing we cannot say that He created the Spirit beings or anything else before he created the Heavens and the Earth ..... except for the creation of his First-Born Son ..... we know that was the first of all creations. The order of the rest is summed up in Gen. 1:1

 

Since the Heavens are the abode of the Spirit Realm, you end up with the "chicken or the egg" .....

 

Now, as for what He used to create things out of, He "created" what He used - He didn't have to start with anything other than Himself and His will.

 

Think about it, Exodus 10:21-23 tells us " 21Jehovah then said to Moses: 'Stretch out your hand toward the heavens so that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, a darkness so thick that it can be felt.' 22 Moses immediately stretched out his hand toward the heavens, and there was a dense darkness in all the land of Egypt for three days. 23 They did not see one another, and none of them got up from where they were for three days; but all the Israelites had light in their dwellings"

 

We understand darkness to be the absence of light - yet this darkness could be "felt" and ...... evidently, even a lantern or fire did not help since the Egyptians "did not see one another", but the Israelites "had light in their dwellings".

 

Kinda' helps us realize that even with theories of relativity, quantum physics, micro/macro ideas ..... we, humans, just do not have all the facts, equations, or any other means of knowing just how Jehovah does some of the things He does.

 

Edited by Qapla
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Remember that the laws of nature dosn't apply to the universe before it's creation, cause they got created along with the universe. So we cannot describe things existing before the beginning of the universe with laws that only applies to the existing universe.

 

It's a little bit like "The Matrix"  :borg:

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Have you heard of Dewey B. Larson? He was an American engineer and the originator of the Reciprocal System of physical theory (or Reciprocal System for short), a comprehensive theoretical framework, or Theory of Everything, claimed to be capable of explaining all physical phenomena from subatomic particles to galactic clusters. In this general physical theory space and time are simply the two reciprocal aspects of the sole constituent of the universe – motion. Unique aspects of the theory are that both matter and energy are represented mathematically as greater than or less than unity (t/s or s/t), and three dimensions of time, reciprocals of the three dimensions of space. All physical phenomena are reduced to space-time terms.

Using this framework can account for spirit creatures. There is a physical universe and a temporal (time) universe. We are physical creatures, spirit beings are temporal creatures.

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  • 1 month later...

You brothers are too deep for me at this point. I'm going to have to do some research before I can

make an intelligent contribution to this discussion. However, since the Society has appealed to Einstein's

equation of E=mc(2) to show how energy could be converted to matter or the reverse, ( such as when

the atomic bombs were exploded ), I think for the public in general, that is an excellent proof of how God

could be the Creator of the universe. It gives them something that almost everyone today can relate to.

 

                                                                                                                                  GStorrs46

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