On the Perception of Race

[Luezette]

As a matter of fact, at least in my side of the world in NYC, there's still a lot of havoc about Caucasian women "getting with" black men, and black men "being with" white women. Yes I understand that stems from slavery. Yet, I really still fail to see the problem, never did actually which probably came from growing up in my/our own racial family. 

 

One day in service while standing near a local train station, a "mixed" couple walked by, she was Caucasian (though I thought she was Latina actually), and he was African American. 

 

She obviously wanted to talk, so he went on to buy a Metrocard. And this was what she asked me (which was when I realized that she was Caucasian). 

 

"Can I ask you a question"? I said yes, but really thinking it was going to be a scriptural question. 

She asked "Why do black women have a problem with white women being with black men"? Im getting a lot of attitude from black  women." I said to myself "Okkkkk."

But now I'm mad though because I hate it!!! I mean, truly hate it when others seem to feel that it's their perrogative to dictate who to be with romantically in racial terms. But lo and behold I'm out there representing Jehovah so I had to be cool. 

 

So this was my response: 

Me: Who has the problem, you or them? 

She: Them.

Me: Right. So that's THEIR problem, not yours! So YOU and HIM just continue living your lives and don't worry about THEM!

 

A few weeks later we all saw each other again at another train station, and I'm assuming they're doing fine, at least racially vs. other people.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Luezette

[EccentricM]

Seems to be quite a thing in the US. In the UK there are many interracial couples and nobody bats an eyelash.

Edited September 14, 2019 by EccentricM

[Luezette]

 

 

5 minutes ago, EccentricM said:

Seems to be quite a thing in the US. In the UK there are many interracial couples and nobody bats an eyelash.

And I love it! To me, men are men, and women are women. Period!

[EccentricM]

9 minutes ago, Luezette said:

 

 

And I love it! To me, men are men, and women are women. Period!

Well sure I agree, that's how it's meant to be . Like I said, with the whole racial preference thing, I think it's okay if only boils down to physical preferences, as opposed to some form of "racial elitism".

[Luezette]

Oh wait. In talking/responding to the woman above, a black woman walked by, heard the question, so stopped, I'm assuming, to hear my response. Wrong move for she shouldn't have done that. Yes, like I said I had to be cool because I was representing Jehovah, but hey since Miss Walking By woman wanted to hear I made sure she did, but in quite the Christian way. 

 

You know how you can direct someone to another area just by you yourself moving to that area? Right. So I did. I went over in a close vicinity to where Miss Walking By woman was standing, and responded to the one who asked the question, who naturally followed. And boy did Miss Walking By woman get an earful, got mad and walked off in a huff!! Oh well. 

 

Anyway, only Jehovah can and will put an end to racial division. 

[Luezette]

5 minutes ago, EccentricM said:

Well sure I agree, that's how it's meant to be . Like I said, with the whole racial preference thing, I think it's okay if only boils down to physical preferences, as opposed to some form of "racial elitism".

Physical preferences? 

Ummm, so are you saying that it wouldnt be right to be with someone who resembles a cyclop? Or the "one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eater"? Lol. Sorry. Just a childhood song, and I couldn't resist it. Lol, lol.

 

Umm, I surely agree!! Lol, lol. Not trying to be smart but heyyyy.

[EccentricM]

Just now, Luezette said:

Physical preferences? 

Ummm, so are you saying that it wouldnt be right to be with someone who resembles a cyclop?

Never said anything on "right or wrong", people can date who they want of any physical appearance, no concern of mine or anyone's! I was making differentation between those who may not date a person of a certain race because they were not "their type physically" (hence the comparison of a person who may prefer to date someone with blue eyes, a certain hair colour or was tall/short) as opposed to a person not dating a certain of a certain race, simply because of their race.  

 

Again, I'm not saying it's "wrong" for any physical type to date and marry another physical type at all (what authority would I have to say otherwise?), but I'm also with @JennyM on saying I think it's okay to not feel physically attracted to a certain race, by extension of the same reasoning as having a preference for other physical things, that is not racism I don't think, racism is to degrade a person or disrespect them, see them as lesser because of their colour, nation or so on.

[Luezette]

Oh ok my mistake obviously. 

And since you mentioned such, although I still stand by race doesn't matter I kinda do have a physical preference in regards to black men, though I wouldnt turn him down simply because he may not measure up, so as long as he meets my other preferences mainly "in the Lord." 

 

And that is if he's black then oh my I do love myself some DEEP DARK BROWN/BLACK! I cant help it! Yes, I'm even talking shiny black! I cant help myself. No, have no idea where that preference came from (maybe at 18, long story). I even prefer deep, manly husky voices as in James Earl Jones. Good grief! And smiles? Oh my...wide open from the heart smiles deep in my eye smiles, because to me it's sincere. 

 

In the Brooklyn downtown shopping area, there's a hotel there (Brooklyn Marriott Hotel) where they don't mind us using their bathroom as long as we don't preach in there. No problem. So we don't, we go in, put our literature away, and out.

 

Anyway, there's a bellhop there who he and I have a sorta "relationship" if it's called that. We both haven't the foggiest idea how it started, I think it's based on the weather where we began conversation about it, so now we either admire each other or get on each other about the weather depending on if it's cold, rainy, snowy, etc. Yes, at times we'll get mad with each other especially if it unbelievably hot or cold, blaming each other for it. (Yes it's silly). 

 

Anyway, one day I'm there for the bathroom as usual, the weather is kinda nice, and though he's talking, I gave him my "approval" look while he's at the desk. Another reason I just gave him a look was because he was busy talking to someone, and that was part of his job. Yet the person he was talking to was a woman and that's when the "fun" began. He acknowledged my approval look with his typical smile, and went back to talking, I kept on to the escalator. But I saw her turn, look and oh my goodness! The look was one mixed with disbelief, "but she's black" etc. 

And why? The bellhop is Caucasian. And so was she. 

 

But my personality is not one to back down in these situations. So yes, I threw her an "what's your problem" look, and moved on. 

 

I can't stand this!! I really can't. 

People are made up of male and female. Simple. Men are men. Women are women. Unfortunately some, many, need to get over themselves. 

 

I mean, yes it's true, perhaps that was her man. Who knows? I dont, nor cared. People really need to get over themselves, especially racially. 

[McKay]

On 9/14/2019 at 2:29 PM, Luezette said:

I can't stand this!! I really can't. 

People are made up of male and female. Simple. Men are men. Women are women. Unfortunately some, many, need to get over themselves.

People are people are people and Jehovah loves everyone.

 

Still, some of us prefer roses to tulips, apples to oranges, and pine trees to fir. We might also prefer light skin for reasons that have little to do with racism.

 

For example, I read once that humans first link emotion to sensory data between the ages of 11 and 14. Meaning the books, movies, and music you preferred when you were an adolescent are the same you will share a bond with as you get older. This explains why so many Baby Boomers still love The Beatles as much as they did when they first saw them on Ed Sullivan. It explains why I have a preference for REM, Springsteen, and early Pearl Jam. I suppose that would also explain why so many men of a certain age still think Marilyn Monroe was (is?) the most beautiful woman in the world.

 

On that last point, my wife has noticed that I've always had a preference for women with fair skin, dark hair, bangs, and thick eyebrows. She would often say, "Oh, you should watch this show. You'll like the girl in it." And I think, 'How does she know that?'

 

Well, one day we discovered why. We were watching a show on TV profiling shows from the early 90s and they mentioned the show "The Wonder Years." My wife asked, "Did you like the girl who played Winnie Cooper when you were young?"

I said, "Of course. All men my age do." (No, seriously, if you ever see a commercial where the girl has bangs they are usually targeting men around 40!)

She said, "How old were you when that show came out?"

I said, "12."

She said, "Do you think that's why you like girls that look like her?"

It all made sense.

 

A week later, my wife got bangs and dyed her hair darker. LOL

[JennyM]

13 minutes ago, OtterWriter said:

People are people are people and Jehovah loves everyone.

 

Still, some of us prefer roses to tulips, apples to oranges, and pine trees to fir. We might also prefer light skin for reasons that have little to do with racism.

 

For example, I read once that humans first link emotion to sensory data between the ages of 11 and 14. Meaning the books, movies, and music you preferred when you were an adolescent are the same you will share a bond with as you get older. This explains why so many Baby Boomers still love The Beatles as much as they did when they first saw them on Ed Sullivan. It explains why I have a preference for REM, Springsteen, and early Pearl Jam. I suppose that would also explain why so many men of a certain age still think Marilyn Monroe was (is?) the most beautiful woman in the world.

 

When I was in my adolescent, I saw Rambo, power rangers, Hispanic soap opera but I like to discover new things too.... I found some korean, and chinese, middles eastern guys to be attractive as long as they're tall..

 

Anyway, the most attactive is spiritual guys. 

 

[kejedo]

Having been part of a (perceived) black family since I was in my 20s, now pushing 70, I can tell you there are still some surprising reax. My husb's grandmother was our spiritual sister, so I was interested in tracing her lines. I want to be there for her in the NW.  One of my sons' and husband's blood relative from the Canadian Maritimes was born white and died black. After my husb's ancestor, first Black Slave on Pei; married a black woman from Nova Scotia, there were few black people around or available. There are several inter racial generations primarily with African and Irish backgrounds. One of the caucasion  wives gave birth to a child. The midwife looked at the mother and entered 'white' for race This baby died shortly after birth and the black father heartbrokenly carried his infant to the mortuary. The mortician took one look at the father, and signed the baby's death certificate as free "colored'. I made a spread sheet, of husb's genetic lines going back many generations,often to the first on this continent . One of husb's cousin (I thought we were tight) called and said i was 'too white' to be tracing the family genealogy. HUsb told her that he wants our six surviving sons to know "their people" and he doesn't like research, but "Pauline does." and did. This non-issue is shallow and should have been forgotten long ago. Y(the correct entry for race:  'human')S

[kejedo]

On 9/16/2019 at 8:41 AM, OtterWriter said:

On that last point, my wife has noticed that I've always had a preference for women with fair skin, dark hair, bangs, and thick eyebrows. She would often say, "Oh, you should watch this show. You'll like the girl in it." And I think, 'How does she know that?'

 

Well, one day we discovered why. We were watching a show on TV profiling shows from the early 90s and they mentioned the show "The Wonder Years." My wife asked, "Did you like the girl who played Winnie Cooper when you were young?"

I said, "Of course. All men my age do." (No, seriously, if you ever see a commercial where the girl has bangs they are usually targeting men around 40!)

She said, "How old were you when that show came out?"

I said, "12."

 

Danica McKellar, (writer and mathematician,) what's not to like? Most Developmental  Psychologists (yes, I do have a degree in this field) feel that mother is the first love object and both male and female children grow up and  tend to marry a person who brings back early MOM memories. Both my sister and I married men who have the same temperament as our mother. They look nothing like her. Interestingly, OtterWriter, you mention your wife changed her style to match your observed preference. But you were already married to her, so your attraction to  marriage mate was not necessarily linked to physical traits. Thanks for sharing your insight.  I still have bangs and light hair. My sons are all approaching 40 (oldest 38). Hope they still me.  Y(MathWriter)S

Edited September 17, 2019 by kejedo

[kejedo]

4 hours ago, kejedo said:

 Hope they still LIKE me.  Y(MathWriter)S

 

[Katty]

I don't think, assuming that Noah's sons had different skin tones, it would have been something people noticed much. People, that early in human history, likely would not have had a concept of race. Again, this is assuming they even had different skins tones, an idea for which the Bible doesn't state. It seems more likely that it's their descendants that developed different traits as a result of inhabiting different continents for generations.
As someone biracial, and having had friends who are biracial, I do think that many people who are more than one race do seem to identify with one race more than others. I'm part Native American, Hispanic/Latin American and white. I identify more with the Hispanic and white part of my heritage more than the Native American side. I've known people who are part Native American and white who identify more with the Native American side. Maybe upbringing has an influence on it. I've never been a part of any communities associated with the Native American tribe in my region, while others have. 
I know a lot of people might disagree with this, but I don't think having racial preferences when it comes to dating is necessarily racist. People generally have specific standards in what they find attractive that takes into account a number of physical characteristics. I find that people instinctively seek partners that look similar to themselves or to relatives to prevent outbreeding, or two people who have genetic background that can be too dissimilar from reproducing. Of course, people often end up dating people that don't fit their profile in what they normally attractive because they have good chemistry. I think what's racist is when you think of particular races as being disgusting or repulsive due to their race. Before I met my love, I would have been open to dating someone of any race, despite finding the characteristics of some being more attractive than others. In the end, it is what's in the heart that counts, after all.
 

[JennyM]

34 minutes ago, Katty said:

I know a lot of people might disagree with this, but I don't think having racial preferences when it comes to dating is necessarily racist. People generally have specific standards in what they find attractive that takes into account a number of physical characteristics. I find that people instinctively seek partners that look similar to themselves or to relatives to prevent outbreeding, or two people who have genetic background that can be too dissimilar from reproducing. Of course, people often end up dating people that don't fit their profile in what they normally attractive because they have good chemistry. I think what's racist is when you think of particular races as being disgusting or repulsive due to their race. Before I met my love, I would have been open to dating someone of any race, despite finding the characteristics of some being more attractive than others. In the end, it is what's in the heart that counts, after all.

Yes, we have physical preferences but its the heart that counts. 

Friendship, kindness, cares, personal interest on you..

 

In my opinioon  we think someone in other race attractive depends on upbringing.. I grew up with  foreign English movies so I found Europeans more attractive than other culture. 

 

Some young koreans who grew up in philipines are attracted more to our culture than in their culture.. They go back to Korea to work but they still keep coming back here because they feel at home here. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by JennyM

[Newtonian]

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 12:20 PM, Thesauron said:

 

I found this interview opening up for a discussion regarding how we perceive ‘race’, skin colour, heritage, etc.

 

An Irish director and actor was brown to two very Irish parents, but at times he was mistaken for mixed race, and sometimes completely African. The black community claimed that he was denying his black lineage, and white neighbours turned their heads at him and his two siblings thinking his mother must have had an extramarital affair. Instead of fighting people’s preconceptions about him, he began to accept them. Which eventually led to a public debacle when some journalist claimed he denied that he was actually born the son of two white parents. Which leads me to Noah’s sons, who apparently had different complexions. Was it rare when they grew up? How did people consider it?

 

Anthony Ekundayo Lennon on being accused of 'passing' as a black man: 'It felt like an assassination' (The Guardian)

 

You may find Anthropologist Ashley Montagu's book "Man's Most dangerous Myth - the Fallacy of Race" to be of interest:

 

https://www.8freebooks.net/mans-most-dangerous-myth-the-fallacy-of-race-by-ashley-montagu/

 

I have the print copy.   From memory, he documents the variations in races and shows how faulty many beliefs are - hence "the fallacy of race."   For example, there is no basis for the belief that any one race is superior to any other race.

 

Montagu also shows that the variation within races is comparable to the variation between races.

 

Brain size variation was one of his points - all races with very variant average brain sizes (the Vedda of Sri Lanka similar to Peking Man/homo erectus) have about the same intelligence!

 

 

[Newtonian]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 9:41 PM, JennyM said:

Yes, we have physical preferences but its the heart that counts. 

Friendship, kindness, cares, personal interest on you..

 

In my opinioon  we think someone in other race attractive depends on upbringing.. I grew up with  foreign English movies so I found Europeans more attractive than other culture. 

 

Some young koreans who grew up in philipines are attracted more to our culture than in their culture.. They go back to Korea to work but they still keep coming back here because they feel at home here. 

Not sure our attractions are all due to upbringing - I was not brought up on Edy's French Silk - my favorite ice cream.

 

As the old saying goes: beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   Otherwise why would some like me prefer the beauty of daylilies and Azaleas (in season).

 

Seriously - physical attraction is very complex.   

 

For example, some think it is influenced by pheromones - however the evidence is (from the following link): "not compelling."

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232635.php

 

If one is married, there is this counsel/fine example:

 

Job 31:1

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

31 “I have made a covenant with my eyes.+

So how could I show improper attention to a virgin?+

 

On this covenant, see:

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1978934?q=covenant+eyes+virgin&p=par

[kejedo]

 

 

Are different races subspecies?

No! Races are not subspecies of the human species. There is only one “race”—the human race. So why can’t we sort humans into subspecies like we can with other animals? The answer is that the human species doesn’t have much genetic variation. We are too alike to split into groups.,,,from ask the Biologist

[JennyM]

On 9/30/2019 at 12:42 AM, Newtonian said:

Not sure our attractions are all due to upbringing - I was not brought up on Edy's French Silk - my favorite ice cream.

 

As the old saying goes: beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   Otherwise why would some like me prefer the beauty of daylilies and Azaleas (in season).

 

Seriously - physical attraction is very complex.   

 

For example, some think it is influenced by pheromones - however the evidence is (from the following link): "not compelling."

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232635.php

 

If one is married, there is this counsel/fine example:

 

Job 31:1

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

31 “I have made a covenant with my eyes.+

So how could I show improper attention to a virgin?+

 

On this covenant, see:

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1978934?q=covenant+eyes+virgin&p=par

Ok.. Attraction needed a thorough scientific study then. 

 

About being monogamous, the bird species like the eagles and penguins  are. I don't understand why humans especially men aren't. I haven't been married to a jw so I don't what it feels like to be married with a christian.  But there are brothers even Ministerial and elders who are single and dating more than 1 sister or some brothers date  and kiss but never marry in this system.  So Im kinda lost trust in dating and in marriage even in the Christian congregation. 

 

 

[EccentricM]

9 hours ago, JennyM said:

I don't understand why humans especially men aren't, I haven't been married to a jw so I don't what it feels like to be married with a christian.  But there are brothers even Ministerial and elders who are single and dating more than 1 sister or some brothers date and kiss but never marry in this system.  So Im kinda lost trust in dating and in marriage even in the Christian congregation. 

I've seen women do exactly the same.  It seems the brothers you come across are just immature in that area. If you dated more than one sister in my congregation at once you'd be counciled for it, as it's fostering an adulterous attitude before marriage. You'd not be well looked upon if you did such a thing.

 

It's common in the world though, and it's most likely because men "on average" tend to be more highly sexed than women, so they get bored with one woman, because they they are not looking for love, they are letting lust lead them. These types of men (even in the truth) are afraid of being tied down, as marriage today is viewed to be for "old people", because it restricts who they can "have fun with", and marriage is often portrayed in media as a burden on life, as opposed to a joy, with the woman always berating the man, and him wishing he was single to date that "nicer woman over there".

 

It's cultural. Men are "taught" by the culture of the world today that being single and switching up women all the time is the way to go. Any brothers acting like this have a wordly perception of dating. It reminds me of these t.v dating shows, where one person (male or female) has to go on a date with three people, one each night and decide which one to be with, it's just" modern match making" for you.

 

I don't really "date" per se, I just seek out a girl who I've developed strong feelings for, as it feels more natural, as opposed to arranged dates all the time to find someone. Of course with such a course I am prone to developing more heartbreaks when let down by someone I've felt attracted to, since I'm "placing all bets" on them as it were. But when I do get such feelings I focus soley on them, in fact I find myself "incapable" of taking interest in multiple women at once as it makes me feel like a womaniser. I've even experienced "guilt" for taking interest in another woman when I felt attracted to another who "rejected" me. I almost felt compelled to go apologise to the girl, even though we were not in a relationship!  As that's the sense of loyalty I develop to a single woman once interested, perhaps to a fault of overattachment at times. But it's a deep "moral" sense I feel that I cannot and will not move on to another woman until my attraction to another has subsided.

Edited October 3, 2019 by EccentricM

[JennyM]

2 hours ago, EccentricM said:

I've seen women do exactly the same.  It seems the brothers you come across are just immature in that area. If you dated more than one sister in my congregation at once you'd be counciled for it, as it's fostering an adulterous attitude before marriage. You'd not be well looked upon if you did such a thing.

I don't know if they are immature or  hypocrites. They have privileges, studious and knew the bible well. 

One divorced elder that has been calling me  (dating= when opposite gender spend more time together) almost every night for 5 months. Hes been explaining scriptures and been nice. Until to the point that he gives me gifts. Then spent time together in a coffee shop.  He even set up a date with me while the other woman was beside  him in the park. He's been giving this woman chocolates and flowers.   

 

The other MS was a good speaker and made good comments.    Ok yes, privilege doesn't mean spiritual maturity. 

2 hours ago, EccentricM said:

It's cultural. Men are "taught" by the culture of the world today that being single and switching up women all the time is the way to go. Any brothers acting like this have a wordly perception of dating. It reminds me of these t.v dating shows, where one person (male or female) has to go on a date with three people, one each night and decide which one to be with, it's just" modern match making" for you.

Thats the problem Men were taught like this for a thousand years. Maybe it will take another 6,000 years to undo it. 

 

2 hours ago, EccentricM said:

I don't really "date" per se, I just seek out a girl who I've developed strong feelings for, as it feels more natural, as opposed to arranged dates all the time to find someone. Of course with such a course I am prone to developing more heartbreaks when let down by someone I've felt attracted to, since I'm "placing all bets" on them as it were. But when I do get such feelings I focus soley on them, in fact I find myself "incapable" of taking interest in multiple women at once as it makes me feel like a womaniser. I've even experienced "guilt" for taking interest in another woman when I felt attracted to another who "rejected" me. I almost felt compelled to go apologise to the girl, even though we were not in a relationship!  As that's the sense of loyalty I develop to a single woman once interested, perhaps to a fault of overattachment at times. But it's a deep "moral" sense I feel that I cannot and will not move on to another woman until my attraction to another has subsided.

Its better to suffer while doing the right thing because if you don't, you might stumble a fellow sheep especially if the person is just newly baptized.  malachi3:16 

I warned the brother not to do what he did to me to  a newly baptized sister because the sister is telling me that hes texting her.. But he still callously flirting with the new sister saying iloveyou...

Although he's background is nice like refusing blood transfusion, but maturity doesn't measure in just one courageous act.   

Edited October 3, 2019 by JennyM

[EccentricM]

@JennyM

 

I suppose it's possible to be spiritually mature in "one area" and then unspiritual in another. Since what one person would never do what another person does, but then goes and does something that the other person would not.

 

But for these scenarios, are any others in the congregation aware of it? Other Elders? Perhaps it's something that needs attention bringing to. If someone is literally saying "I love you" and buying presents to multiple women, that is not acceptable behaviour, even people in the world would agree to that.

[Luezette]

My opinion is that if and when a brother "dates" or "talks" to more than one sister at the same time, or even "dates" or "talks" to one sister thus giving her the impression that he's interested in her, yet isnt really, is very selfish, a bore, low self-esteem, and has no idea whatsoever what it means to be a man...a real man! To me such actions are no different than that of a pimp!

The whole point of pimphood, other than the money, is to build up a sagging, practically non existent proper self-esteem. And what better way than to have a gathering of women by his side! 

Sad. Pitiful. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Luezette

[Luezette]

1 hour ago, EccentricM said:

If someone is literally saying "I love you" and buying presents to multiple women, that is not acceptable behaviour, even people in the world would agree to that

Exactly!!

[Luezette]

1 hour ago, EccentricM said:

If someone is literally saying "I love you" and buying presents to multiple women, that is not acceptable behaviour, even people in the world would agree to that

Exactly!!