Polio vaccine discussion please no conspiracy theories or anything of that ilk.

[Naturale]

10 hours ago, trottigy said:

note: I can NOT find anyone who actually agrees that polio is maiming and killing people at a HIGHER rate than what is was BEFORE the vaccine - maybe a source for that would be good.

I can't discuss it here but  posts on page 35.

A major concern about OPV is its ability to revert to a form that can cause paralysis. OPV hasn't been used in the states since 2000 but is still used in many parts of the world.

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/49/8/1287/429938

[trottigy]

5 hours ago, Naturale said:

I can't discuss it here but  posts on page 35.

A major concern about OPV is its ability to revert to a form that can cause paralysis. OPV hasn't been used in the states since 2000 but is still used in many parts of the world.

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/49/8/1287/429938

From that article:

 

Quote

Two polio vaccines are commonly used throughout the world for poliomyelitis. The first was developed by Jonas Salk in 1952; the second was an oral vaccine developed by Albert Sabin. These 2 vaccines have eradicated polio from most countries and have reduced the worldwide incidence of polio from 350,000 cases in 1988 to just 1300 cases in 2007 

How is this saying " a vaccine used to prevent polio has actually been doing the opposite"?

[Naturale]

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

From that article:

How is this saying " a vaccine used to prevent polio has actually been doing the opposite"?

This is off topic so I'm only replying to this because you are a staff member but after this I won't be saying anymore about this here.  So to answer your question ...  
Because "A major concern about OPV is its ability to revert to a form that can cause paralysis. Outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) have been reported in many countries of the world [2, 4].  
(Willyard C. Polio eradication campaign copes with unusual outbreak, Nat Med, 2007, vol. 13 pg. 1394)
(Virendra B. Problems with the oral polio vaccine, Nat Med, 2008, vol. 14 pg. 9)

The problem that has developed with the Oral Polio Vaccine is its ability to revert to a form that can cause paralysis. The attenuated live virus mutates and becomes pathogenic, in fact it mutates back into a stronger, virulent form of the virus, replicating and evolving. Outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) have been reported in many countries of the world. The outbreaks are spreading.  The vaccine-derived poliovirus is much worse than the wild poliovirus.  It is becoming a  more difficult and complicated problem than previously thought and is not going to go away.

[SUNRAY]

6 minutes ago, Naturale said:

This is off topic so I'm only replying to this because you are a staff member but after this I won't be saying anymore about this here.  So to answer your question ...  
Because "A major concern about OPV is its ability to revert to a form that can cause paralysis. Outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) have been reported in many countries of the world [2, 4].  
(Willyard C. Polio eradication campaign copes with unusual outbreak, Nat Med, 2007, vol. 13 pg. 1394)
(Virendra B. Problems with the oral polio vaccine, Nat Med, 2008, vol. 14 pg. 9)

The problem that has developed with the Oral Polio Vaccine is its ability to revert to a form that can cause paralysis. The attenuated live virus mutates and becomes pathogenic, in fact it mutates back into a stronger, virulent form of the virus, replicating and evolving. Outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) have been reported in many countries of the world. The outbreaks are spreading.  The vaccine-derived poliovirus is much worse than the wild poliovirus.  It is becoming a  more difficult and complicated problem than previously thought and is not going to go away.

Wow! I appreciate your research very much! Please don't leave this thread!

[Lance]

Ok it seems there is a great need to discuss the polio vaccine issue... please respect the choice and conscience of your brothers and sisters 

 

[Mykyl]

From the polio eradication website. 

 

https://polioeradication.org/tools-and-library/current-research-areas/vaccine-derived-polioviruses/

 

Quote

In the 10 years leading up to 2015 there were around 750 cases of paralysis caused by VDPVs reported worldwide.

Quote

Vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) is a rare event associated with OPV, which is caused by a strain of poliovirus that has genetically changed in the intestine from the original attenuated vaccine strain contained in OPV. It is a one-time case, with no risk of spread to others and occurs at a rate of approximately 2 to 4 events per 1 million births. [1]

 

This is from the cdc website. 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/vaccine-derived-poliovirus-faq.html#:~:text=What is vaccine-associated paralytic,VAPP is sporadic and rare.

 

Quote

What is vaccine-associated paralytic polio?

Vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) is an adverse event following exposure to OPV. OPV is made with live attenuated (weakened) polioviruses that can result in a case of VAPP. VAPP is sporadic and rare. There is very little evidence that the vaccine virus circulates from VAPP cases, and there are no outbreaks associated with VAPP.

 

[trottigy]

20 hours ago, trottigy said:

note: I can NOT find anyone who actually agrees that polio is maiming and killing people at a HIGHER rate than what is was BEFORE the vaccine - maybe a source for that would be good.

And some one ELSE replied with:

 

1 hour ago, Mountain man said:

We calculated the number of paralyzed children each year which exceeded the expected numbers(assuming a NPAFP rate of 2/100,000) and the results are displayed in Table 2. A total of 640,000children developed NPAFP in the years 2000–2017, suggesting that there were an additional 491,000paralyzed children above our expected numbers for children with NPAFP

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6121585/pdf/ijerph-15-01755.pdf

 

I don't usually have a lot of time and may not be able to reply again soon AND reading a 5 page scientific document is going to take some time to digest, but let's go to the conclusion of that pdf and see what those who did this study stated:

 

Quote

5. Conclusions

 

The polio eradication programme succeeded in drastically reducing the global spread of this disease, which was achieved through the use of immunization with OPV. While commending this enormous effort at eradication, our observation supports the hypothesis that the frequency of pulse polio administration is directly or indirectly related to the incidence of NPAFP. It is hoped that this finding will help continue efforts at optimizing the dose schedule of OPV administration and result in a reduction in NPAFP—which is a feasible hope, as the incidence of wild polio is currently at an all-time low.

So, are there possible issues with this particular vaccine? As they state:

 

Quote

We speculated that repeated doses of the live vaccine virus delivered to the intestine may colonize the gut and alter the viral microbiome of the intestine, and this can result in strain shifts of enteropathogens. It is possible that new neurotropic enteroviruses colonizing the gut may induce paralysis.

 

Although more studies are needed to confirm a causal association, the dose response to de-challenges makes a causal association more likely.

Sure and more studies should be done about REPEATED dosing, but this is not saying "polio is maiming and killing people at a HIGHER rate than what is was BEFORE the vaccine" - especially NOT because of being vaccinated.

 

This is what I was saying about having a preconceived notion and seeing something really quickly that seems to back that notion up and then walk away saying - "see exactly what I thought!"

 

That FIRST line in the conclusion is saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what was stated at the beginning. INSTEAD it says, "The polio eradication programme succeeded in drastically reducing the global spread of this disease, which was achieved through the use of immunization with OPV."

 

I ask - read ALL the information and studies you find with a hope of being proved wrong - rather than just looking to confirm your own bias. This is how we learn and grow. I learn from this site ALL the time - thanks to that philosophy.

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by trottigy

[Old]

Again I would like to give several likes to Jerry's post above, can't do that so here!

 

[carlos]

The polio virus affected a lot of people in Spain in the fifties and early sixties. I know a number of people in their sixties or seventies who were severely affected by this virus, usually leaving them with a leg shorter than the other. It also has long time effects that only come to light decades later.

 

After a vaccination campaign (with the oral vaccine) poliomyelitis was declared completely eradicated from Spain in 1988. As in most of the world, there haven't been any new cases of polio in decades. There is no question that polio was eradicated as a consequence of the vaccination campaign.

 

Our publications have acknowledged this:

 

Quote

*** g04 5/22 p. 6 The Age-Old Fight for Better Health ***
During the 20th century, vaccines have proved effective in preventing other diseases, such as polio, yellow fever, measles, and rubella.

And from the same article:

 

Quote

Polio, or poliomyelitis, a debilitating childhood disease, offered the prospect of similar success. In 1955, Jonas Salk produced an effective vaccine for polio, and an immunization campaign against polio began in the United States and other countries. Later an oral vaccine was developed. In 1988, WHO launched a worldwide program to eliminate polio.
  “When we began the eradication effort in 1988, polio paralysed more than 1000 children each day,” reports Dr. Gro Harlem Brundtland, then director general of WHO. “In 2001, there were far fewer than 1000 cases for the entire year.” Polio is now confined to fewer than ten countries, although more funds will be needed to help these lands finally eliminate the disease.

At present, according to this article in Los Angeles Times polio is still endemic only in Afghanistan. In Pakistan, after being on the verge of being eradicated, the number of cases has rocketed after a rumor spread that vaccines were actually a plot by the government to sterilize the population. People are now refusing to vaccinate their children and children are dying or remaining maimed as a consequence.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by carlos

[Lance]

Here is a 2015 fact sheet on VAPP and cVDPV

 

VAPPandcVDPVFactSheet-Feb2015.pdf

[hatcheckgirl]

Thank you Lance.  Very informative and understandable.  It is truly unnecessary to espouse the good vaccines have done in eliminating a large amount of misery.  With anything, there is a risk of things going wrong.  The figures quoted above in the Fact sheet and other WHO sources do show that thankfully it is a very small number out of the billions of vaccines given.

 

From the Fact Sheet:

cVDPVs (Circulating vaccine derived poliovirus) occur when routine immunization or supplementary immunization activities (SIAs) are poorly conducted and a significant proportion of the population is left susceptible to poliovirus.
 Low vaccination coverage is a major risk factor for cVDPV emergence. A fully immunized population will be protected against both vaccine-derived and wild polioviruses. It takes many months for a cVDPV to emerge.

 

A quick WHO video on Circulating Vaccine Derived Polio (2 mins) https://youtu.be/CZxqz4bX048

 

 

Lastly, are vaccines the answer to stopping pandemics?

No - only this is:

The Bible foretells a time in the near future when no one will be sick. Under the rule of his Kingdom, God will cure all health problems. (Isaiah 33:24; 35:5, 6) He will do away with suffering, pain, and death. (Revelation 21:4) And he will bring back to life those who have died so that they can enjoy good health here on earth under perfect conditions.—Psalm 37:29; Acts 24:15.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/bible-about-pandemics-disease/#link3

 

But while we wait, we have this as an option, a personal choice where we all have to weigh up the risks and the positives.