Miami Condo Collapse

[bagwell1987]

Oh no, this is terrible

https://amp-miamiherald-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252324218.html?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16245693240111&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.miamiherald.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fcommunity%2Fmiami-dade%2Fmiami-beach%2Farticle252324218.html

Edited June 26, 2021 by trottigy

[trottigy]

I received this from the International Code Council (ICC) as I am a certified building inspector:

 

Quote

We are deeply saddened by the news of the building collapse in Surfside, Florida, last night. Our thoughts and prayers go out to those affected and to the rescue crews working hard to identify survivors.

 

As Florida officials continue to investigate this tragedy, the International Code Council will support Florida in any way it can. We understand this incident will likely spur additional inspections throughout the area, and the Code Council will share information with its network of code officials and inspectors should Florida need additional support.

 

The building that collapsed was built in the 1980s. Since Hurricane Andrew hit the state in 1992, Florida has adopted a rigorous code adoption and enforcement process. In fact, Florida has one of the strongest building codes in the U.S., which is based on the International Codes. As noted in the Insurance Institute for Business and Home Safety’s Rating the States 2021 report, Florida is ranked number one among the 18 states along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts for building code adoption, enforcement, and contractor licensing.

 

In times like this, we are reminded of the vital role building safety professionals play in making sure these incidents are rare while ensuring safe and sustainable communities. Together we will help Florida recover, and we will look to the lessons of the past to help us prepare for a better future.

Good reminder

[bagwell1987]

I read the same thing Jerry.  We have so many buildings/bridges/highways that are getting old. Infrastructure is aging. It takes so much money to fix it all, and time. Plus fighting the mass of people who use all if it everyday makes fixing it a big problem. 

 

There's a brother in a neighboring congregation who worked for the state of Oregon/bridges. He said there are many he won't drive across. Said that about 20 years ago 😳

Edited June 25, 2021 by bagwell1987

[Doug]

The Millennium Tower in San Francisco has sunk 18 inches and is tilting north-west 14 inches.  Built in 2009.

 

60 Minutes did a couple of stories about it. Seems the engineering plans called for steel but a change was made to concrete without re-engineering. It became much, much heavier than planned.

 

There is a plan to save it.

[Sheep]

Is that a condo? (I'm not from SFO.) I remember hearing about a condo there that was leaning, not enough to force everyone out, but I think it was something that could progress and get to that point. Maybe it's the same one.

 

All the condo owners in the building were trying to figure out who to sue, since the company that built it was no longer in business (or something like that). They were in for a big loss on the condos they bought; who's going to buy them?

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Sheep

[Old]

3 hours ago, Sheep said:

Is that a condo? (I'm not from SFO.) I remember hearing about a condo there that was leaning, not enough to force everyone out, but I think it was something that could progress and get to that point. Maybe it's the same one.

 

All the condo owners in the building were trying to figure out who to sue, since the company that built it was no longer in business (or something like that). They were in for a big loss on the condos they bought; who's going to buy them?

 

Totally different story, but most intersting.

[Lee49]

 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/breaking-news/2021/06/26/report-showed-major-damage-before-florida-condo-collapse/

Report showed major damage before Florida condo collapse

 

 

While the engineering report from the firm of Morabito Consultants did not warn of imminent danger from the damage — and it is unclear if any of the damage observed was responsible for the collapse — it did note the need for extensive and costly repairs to fix the systemic issues with the building.

It said the waterproofing under the pool deck had failed and had been improperly laid flat instead of sloped, preventing water from draining off.

“The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replaced the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,” the report said.

[Lee49]

Mathew 7:26,27

Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

[trottigy]

You know, I have just a few thoughts here:

 

The building inspectors meet in a completely different building from City Hall. It's often like they don't even remember we exist. In fact, well connected business owners and contractors often call their city council members to try to get us to just pass their inspections. Most of my inspectors feel like they are red-headed stepchildren. June 1st when City Hall workers came back they called them heroes, threw parties for them, and mentioned how great it is to have them all back. Meanwhile, building inspectors and fire inspectors never stopped coming to work and doing their job just as they normally had- it took us weeks to get hand sanitizer, regular masks and clear direction on how and what we should do regarding our jobs. It's incredibly frustrating.

 

 

But then something like this happens and well we'll see if they treat us any differently. IF they do it'll only be a momentary change and things will go right back to the way they were. We are the ones who are holding up projects and preventing them from getting to completion. It's not the contractor who can't build it per the plans and make sure things are done per the engineers' standards. No. It's us.

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by trottigy

[Lee49]

8 minutes ago, trottigy said:

It's not the contractor who can't build it per the plans and make sure things are done per the engineers' standards. No. It's us.

No disrespect to you or your inspectors, but how many inspectors are " on the take " by builders and others just to get things passed, especially in the commercial field where millions are invested? I know when I had my home built there were several items looked over that should have been flagged, the building inspector was in and out in about 20 minutes! I would dare to say that there is also mob money and underhanded dealings going on as there has always been, you just don't hear as much about it, most of these high rise buildings were built years ago and most likely not up to present day standards, with erosion, hurricanes, load limits etc. being out of date, not to mention fixing the problems that are caught during recent inspections! (my 2 cents)

[Old]

10 minutes ago, Lee49 said:

No disrespect to you or your inspectors, but how many inspectors are " on the take " by builders and others just to get things passed, especially in the commercial field where millions are invested? I know when I had my home built there were several items looked over that should have been flagged, the building inspector was in and out in about 20 minutes! I would dare to say that there is also mob money and underhanded dealings going on as there has always been, you just don't hear as much about it, most of these high rise buildings were built years ago and most likely not up to present day standards, with erosion, hurricanes, load limits etc. being out of date, not to mention fixing the problems that are caught during recent inspections! (my 2 cents)

IMO The above is a bit harsh.

Building inspectors have a tough job, some do it better than others. Nothing is built perfectly, as a consequence they often have to make a judgement call, "Does this meet the intent of the Building Code?" " Is the compliance with the APPROVED plans reasonable and safe?" and making his judgement call with full knowlege that if he tags  a major operation of a project the contractor will see the city in court.

I have had projects red tagged for both reasonable and unreasonable reasons. I did get the head building inspector removed at one time, but except for him, I have found inspectors reasonable and good to work with.

Periodic health and safety inspections do not typically fall under the jurisdiction of the building department.

[trottigy]

41 minutes ago, Lee49 said:

No disrespect to you or your inspectors, but how many inspectors are " on the take " by builders and others just to get things passed, especially in the commercial field where millions are invested? I know when I had my home built there were several items looked over that should have been flagged, the building inspector was in and out in about 20 minutes! I would dare to say that there is also mob money and underhanded dealings going on as there has always been, you just don't hear as much about it, most of these high rise buildings were built years ago and most likely not up to present day standards, with erosion, hurricanes, load limits etc. being out of date, not to mention fixing the problems that are caught during recent inspections! (my 2 cents)

I can only speak for the 17 building inspectors that I supervise - none. I and the other 2 supervisors (Senior Building Inspectors) perform random quality audits on all of our guys. We'd know.

 

But, you have pointed to the real problem. 20 minutes. On average we perform 500 building inspections per day, with 17 inspectors. That is almost 30 inspections per inspector per day (and that's IF everyone is working that day - no vacation, no sick time, no waiting to backfill a position after one retires/ quits, etc - it's only half of our days where everyone is there). That gives us 24 minutes per inspection in an 8 hour day and that would have to include the drive time, plan review and site walking - crazy. We've asked for more people, but the powers that be don't really want us out there - we are a "necessary evil" as I've heard one councilman call us. Now, they are looking to have the contractors "self-certify" (look that one up!).

 

Anyway, sure in 20 minutes we'll miss stuff and we'll fall back on the protection given us in the building code that says the contractor is responsible for ALL work and inspection are just there to "assist" and not take responsibility. But with as often as we point things out, work with contractors to fix, and still get chewed out for not just "passing" things off so projects can "keep moving" it's amazing that these guys continue on with their job and do fairly well.

 

https://www.cityofhenderson.com/government/departments/building-and-fire-safety

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by trottigy

[bagwell1987]

Very true Jerry. I've remodeled 3 homes and have done fire/water restoration. 

 

There's much to say for those who are good at their jobs, you can spot infractions quicker. You have a good sense of what is what at a glance. 

 

I've been accused of being too fast in my job thus they assumed I was cutting corners. I've asked them to do a walk through and inspect my work and point out anything I missed. They end up not finding anything and getting mad, insisting I stay for an hour anyway.  I've quit jobs because of that. 

[Lee49]

Punch list? Just bring a tube of caulk, It'll cover most inside flaws! 🤣

 

[Lee49]

https://theconversation.com/the-problem-with-reinforced-concrete-56078

 

An interesting article especially using rebar for reinforcement

 

The problem with reinforced concrete

 

 

Early 20th-century engineers thought reinforced concrete structures would last a very long time – perhaps 1,000 years. In reality, their life span is more like 50-100 years, and sometimes less. Building codes and policies generally require buildings to survive for several decades, but deterioration can begin in as little as 10 years.

 The critical difference is the modern use of steel reinforcement, known as rebar, concealed within the concrete. Steel is made mainly of iron, and one of iron’s unalterable properties is that it rusts. This ruins the durability of concrete structures in ways that are difficult to detect and costly to repair. more........

[Lee49]

3 hours ago, trottigy said:

That gives us 24 minutes per inspection in an 8 hour day and that would have to include the drive time, plan review and site walking - crazy.

It appears most jobs today are being pushed to perform more and more with less help, I call it the Lucy assembly line effect!

 

[bagwell1987]

Yes, I totally agree. I have experienced it myself. Corporations and Unions alike are greedy mongers and put performance demands on employees so bad I've seen some in counseling for PTSD. Corporate America is unbelievable, like Jerry said, he requests more help but is told no. He and his fellows have to suck it up and do the best they can in an impossible situation. This should qualify for "how close to armegeddon are we".

[Doug]

Building Codes go all the way back to Babylon.  The Code of Hammurabi circa 1758 BCE states:

"If a builder has built a house for a man and his work is not strong, and if the house he has built falls in and kills the householder, that builder shall be slain".

"If a builder constructs a house for a man but does not make it conform to specifications so that a wall then buckles, that builder shall make that wall sound using his own silver".

 

Another egregious failure was the Grenfell Tower, West London, fire on June 14, 2017.  In 2015-16 the 27 story high tower received new aluminum composite cladding. The purpose was to improve heating, energy efficiency and external appearance. 

Two types of cladding were used. An alternative cladding with better fire resistance was refused due to cost.

 

The cladding used was, apparently, highly flammable. The fire tore through the wall cavity and the building was engulfed within minutes. 

 

Ruling out the unexpected, such as a sinkhole ,  building failures are most likely always a result of taking shortcuts to save money.  Greed = Bloodguilt.

[BLEmom]

I was really hoping they would have found a few people by now.  It’s not looking good for survivors. 
 

@bagwell1987can we fix the subject spelling for Miami?

[trottigy]

47 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

I was really hoping they would have found a few people by now.  It’s not looking good for survivors. 
 

@bagwell1987can we fix the subject spelling for Miami?

Done

[bagwell1987]

What boo boo did I do? 😃

[trottigy]

We just changed the spelling of Miami from Maimi to Miami - no big deal. 

 

 

[Lee49]

What's a Jewish woman's favorite wine?

Spoiler

" I want to go to Miami "!

 

[bagwell1987]

Ohhh, haaaa, I don't doubt I misspelled it!😄

[Allabord4Jah]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:40 PM, Doug said:

The Millennium Tower in San Francisco has sunk 18 inches and is tilting north-west 14 inches.  Built in 2009.

 

60 Minutes did a couple of stories about it. Seems the engineering plans called for steel but a change was made to concrete without re-engineering. It became much, much heavier than planned.

 

There is a plan to save it.

Amazing how the old master builders made the Tower of Piza, still standing but also is tilted to one side.  I think the only 2 things that will bring it down is an earthquake and it the Great Tribulation/Armageddon.  Also this building in San Francisco, built with inferior material like the bridge that collapsed in Italy a few years back.