Aliens

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

That's how I understand your point of view. Is that correct? What am I missing? 

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Yes. Emphasis on the word "prove".

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Yes, otherwise it would just be belief.

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Nope

 

So looks like I understood 2 out of 3 parts. What did I misunderstand? 

 

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

It was their test of obedience. But passing an obedience test is not the same as proving Jehovah's rule is best. Their obedience doesn't touch that.

 

So, at what point could Adam and Eve's continued loyalty be sufficient to provide an answer to Satan's challenge?   Unless proven, how can Jehovah make a reply to the one taunting him?

 

(Job 2:4) 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life.
 

 

While stated in Job, this is the crux of the entire account at Genesis chapter 3.  Jehovah's creation is inherently flawed.  People, even perfect people, only serve Jehovah as long as the good times roll. Take away their paradise and they will curse God.

 

(Proverbs 27:11) 11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me.
 

The only way Jehovah could make a reply was if humanity rebelled.   Otherwise, how could Jehovah make a reply without proof?

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:54 AM by Shawnster

[LeolaRootStew]

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

So looks like I understood 2 out of 3 parts. What did I misunderstand? 

 

...The rest?

-you saying all ethnicities/species need to sin to prove Satan a liar

-you saying Adam and Eve's sin was inevitable by conflating an inability to prove Satan wrong with a requirement that they sin

-you saying that proving Satan is wrong about humans means it doesn't apply to everyone

 

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

So, at what point could Adam and Eve's continued loyalty be sufficient to provide an answer to Satan's challenge? 

 

Imagine Jehovah made a lavish meal for Adam and Eve and Satan claimed he could make an even better one. They say no and he never makes it. How long do Adam and Eve have to say no before it proves Satan can't cook? Never. You can't prove someone can't cook if you never let them cook. Their loyalty has nothing to do with Satan's ability to rule. That's a category error.  

 

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Unless proven, how can Jehovah make a reply to the one taunting him?

 

What would Satan even taunt Jehovah with: "Hey, I think I can do better, but no one wants to follow me"?

 

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

how could Jehovah make a reply without proof?

 

That's above my pay-grade. 

[Tortuga]

26 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

What would Satan even taunt Jehovah with: "Hey, I think I can do better, but no one wants to follow me"

I think where our opinions differ is that you think Satan needed an opportunity to prove he was right. The difference is that he didn't claim to be right, he claimed Jehovah was wrong. Big difference. Jehovah gave him an opportunity to prove his point.

Edited Tuesday at 03:43 AM by Tortuga

[Lesley]

Hmm.  This is a thought provoking subject.  Remembering that Satan is a liar, when he said to Eve that she definitely would not die if she ate the fruit; he didn't say that because he believed that she would not die; he was telling a lie.  But he was trying to seize power.  Most humans have let him.  This weeks watchtower Maintain the Right view of Adversity paragraph 3 made a good point:" If Jehovah were to fix all problems now, it could seem as if he was helping Satan run the world."

 

Jehovah has gone to great lengths to provide a way of saving Adam and Eve's imperfect descendants, by providing the ransom.  Jehovah knows what is true and he doesn't have to prove it for himself.  He is kindly showing us that he is consistent and tells the truth.  We can have confidence in Jehovah.  1 Corinthians 4 verse 9 says that we have become a theatrical spectacle to the World and to angels and to men.  We can pray to Jehovah to help us to be loyal to him.  We can all see that Jehovah's way is best, and the opportunity is still open for others to see as well.

[Shawnster]

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

you saying... 

 

No.  I was not saying.  I was asking if that was what you saying. I was seeking clarification. 

 

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

you saying that proving Satan is wrong about humans means it doesn't apply to everyone

 

Well, the topic was about extra terrestrials. And that's the ultimate point as to whether what the Bible describes applies to everyone, including these ETs, or if it only applies to humans. Some in this topic have stated the Bible, since it is only concerned with the human condition, cannot be used to disprove intelligent life on other planets. 

 

So, yes. Working with your analogy in relation to the topic, we must treat each group of humanity as distinct and separate groups instead of all coming from the same origin because, since this topic is about alien life, by definition those aliens would be separate and distinct from humans. 

 

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

That's above my pay-grade. 

 

 

That's the ultimate point of this discussion, whether such hypothetical aliens could or could not be used as witnesses to make a reply to Satan's challenge.  

 

I will respect your conclusion the answer is out of your reach. 

[LeolaRootStew]

9 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I think where our opinions differ is that you think Satan needed an opportunity to prove he was right. The difference is that he didn't claim to be right, he claimed Jehovah was wrong. Big difference. Jehovah gave him an opportunity to prove his point.

 

...So I agree with Jehovah? 

 

Satan didn't say God's rulership was bad, just that it could be better (he was withholding something from them). The implication being that Satan could do better. The only way to prove that is to try. Makes sense to me.

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

Well, the topic was about extra terrestrials. And that's the ultimate point as to whether what the Bible describes applies to everyone, including these ETs, or if it only applies to humans. Some in this topic have stated the Bible, since it is only concerned with the human condition, cannot be used to disprove intelligent life on other planets. 

 

So, yes. Working with your analogy in relation to the topic, we must treat each group of humanity as distinct and separate groups instead of all coming from the same origin because, since this topic is about alien life, by definition those aliens would be separate and distinct from humans. 

 

It applies to everyone, not because everyone is the same, but because the same God who said humans can't rule themselves was just proven right through thousands of years of testing. So when Jehovah says the same thing about all his other creations, we know we can take him at his word - it doesn't need to be proven again.

 

As I stated previously, I don't think what is happening here proves one way or another whether there is life on other planets.

[Tortuga]

1 minute ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

...So I agree with Jehovah? 

 

Satan didn't say God's rulership was bad, just that it could be better (he was withholding something from them). The implication being that Satan could do better. The only way to prove that is to try. Makes sense to me.

I think we are saying the same thing and not saying the same thing. You seem to be suggesting that if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, that mankind would continue to be tested until Jehovah allowed Satan an opportunity to rule the world and fail. I disagree. You are using your logic to support the idea that another intelligent physical creation with freewill could exist and their tests of loyalty wouldn't prevent humans on earth being tested, so the events on earth don't rule out the possibility of intelligent physical creation with freewill on other planets. I disagree.

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Take care...

 

 

[LeolaRootStew]

1 minute ago, Tortuga said:

You seem to be suggesting that if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, that mankind would continue to be tested until Jehovah allowed Satan an opportunity to rule the world and fail.

 

No. I'm saying that I have no idea what he would do in that circumstance because I'm not sure what Satan did would be a death sentence if there were no fallout from it. Would he be banished? I don't know. Executed? I don't know. I understand he has earned a death sentence in real life because his actions killed Adam and Eve, but if they had said no there would be no casualties - so what would the punishment have been? I don't know.

 

3 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

You are using your logic to support the idea that another intelligent physical creation with freewill could exist and their tests of loyalty wouldn't prevent humans on earth being tested, so the events on earth don't rule out the possibility of intelligent physical creation with freewill on other planets. I disagree.

 

 

Agree. Their theoretical test of loyalty doesn't affect our planet (if they passed it). I still don't believe there is other life out there, but I can't use our current circumstances as proof of anything.

 

If another planet had:

 

Failed the test: the issue of sovereignty would have been adjudicated already and Adam and Eve would have been informed of this. No need for an earthly court case. 

 

Passed the test: Satan may or may not be executed or banished. We don't know. He may have been allowed to travel the universe and tempt Adam and Eve because choosing Jehovah's rulership does not prove Satan can't do it better (in the eyes of all creation).

 

So, if there is another planet full of people out there, they would have to be faithful or they sinned after Adam and Eve did. Why? Because the issue of sovereignty is being played out here, not there. Jesus died here, not there. So it's possible they exist, but our current circumstances do not prove it one way or another.

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

may or may not be executed or banished. We don't know. 

 

We absolutely do know. The Bible is pretty clear. 

 

(Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages sin pays is death. 

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=45006023&srcid=share

 

(James 1:15) sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=59001015&srcid=share

 

Sin results in death.  Everyone that sins is subject to death. Challenging Jehovah's sovereignty is a sin.  For challenging Jehovah, Satan will die. He must die. 

 

Likewise, we know that Jehovah would never allow Satan to go and seduce a separate alien species as if Satan had free reign to corrupt the entire universe while he awaits execution.  Jehovah's word is clear. If you know your bull is in the habit of hurting people and you don't restrain it, then you are responsible. After the first act of rebellion, Jehovah's justice forces him to restrain Satan so he does not hurt anyone innocent. 

[LeolaRootStew]

4 hours ago, Shawnster said:

 

We absolutely do know. The Bible is pretty clear. 

 

(Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages sin pays is death. 

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=45006023&srcid=share

 

(James 1:15) sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=59001015&srcid=share

 

Sin results in death.  Everyone that sins is subject to death. Challenging Jehovah's sovereignty is a sin.  For challenging Jehovah, Satan will die. He must die. 

 

Likewise, we know that Jehovah would never allow Satan to go and seduce a separate alien species as if Satan had free reign to corrupt the entire universe while he awaits execution.  Jehovah's word is clear. If you know your bull is in the habit of hurting people and you don't restrain it, then you are responsible. After the first act of rebellion, Jehovah's justice forces him to restrain Satan so he does not hurt anyone innocent. 

 

I understand what you are saying, I'm just unclear of what sin is in a world whose only rule is "don't eat from that tree". Maybe you are right and Satan condemned himself the moment he said something untrue or the moment he rebelled against Jehovah's leadership - I just don't feel confident enough to make that claim even though it rings true for me.

[Shawnster]

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Maybe you are right and Satan condemned himself the moment he said something untrue or the moment he rebelled against Jehovah's leadership

 

 

Well, let's reason on it. Lying is a sin. Satan is a liar. Murder is a sin. Satan is a manslayer. Disobedience is a sin. Satan committed a willful act of disobedience. 

 

Notice what the Insight book says about Satan 

 

*** it-2 “Satan” par. 4 Satan ***

So, from a righteous, perfect start, this spirit person deviated into sin and degradation. The process bringing this about is described by James when he writes: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (Jas 1:14, 15) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19.—See PERFECTION (The first sinner and the king of Tyre).

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200003845&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par =5

 

Since the Slave is confident enough in stating that Satan "deviated into sin" then we can be confident in following their lead. 

[LeolaRootStew]

1 minute ago, Shawnster said:

 

 

Well, let's reason on it. Lying is a sin. Satan is a liar. Murder is a sin. Satan is a manslayer. Disobedience is a sin. Satan committed a willful act of disobedience. 

 

Notice what the Insight book says about Satan 

 

*** it-2 “Satan” par. 4 Satan ***

So, from a righteous, perfect start, this spirit person deviated into sin and degradation. The process bringing this about is described by James when he writes: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (Jas 1:14, 15) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19.—See PERFECTION (The first sinner and the king of Tyre).

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200003845&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par =5

 

Since the Slave is confident enough in stating that Satan "deviated into sin" then we can be confident in following their lead. 

 

But they are writing from the perspective that he is responsible for killing Adam and Eve. I'm trying to see from the perspective of that time-period if they had said no. If Eve had said no, he would not be described as a manslayer because no one would have died. Lying is a sin, but what was considered a sin at that time? The only rule they had was to not eat from the tree. I don't understand what the rules were or how anyone knew what they were, so I can't say when the line was crossed.

[Shawnster]

Now that I finally have time to reply.... 

 

You are right in that Genesis lists only 1 rule Adam and Eve had to follow and the consequences of breaking it. As stated, the Bible is written from the human point of view, so it's not necessary for us to know what rules angels live by. In regards Adam and Eve, there wasn't much they could do in the way of breaking God's laws. There was no one they could commit adultery with. There was nothing to steal. Etc...

There is no reason, however, to conclude Satan didn't have laws and rules he should have followed. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. His ways and principles do not change and are timeless. Yes, sometimes laws change, but principles never change.  One of Jehovah's principles is to be honest in all things.  Another is to not seduce others into sin. 

So, regardless whether Adam and/or Eve remained faithful, the moment Satan lied he committed a sin. Jesus condemnation was in context of Satan's lie.   

(John 8:44) When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

*** it-2 “Satan” par. 6 Satan ***
Issue of Sovereignty Raised. When Satan approached Eve (through the speech of the serpent), he actually challenged the rightfulness and righteousness of Jehovah’s sovereignty. He intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman; he also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Additionally, Satan made her believe she would be free and independent of God, becoming like God. 
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200003845&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=7

Regardless whether Eve believed Satan or not, the lie and challenge to Jehovah’s sovereignty was made.  Satan's mere raising the question challenged Jehovah's right to rule. 

Challenging Jehovah is a sin, wouldn't you agree? Would there need to be a rule in the scriptures before we conclude this is a sin? 

(1 John 3:4) 4 Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Sin is lawlessness. Challenging Jehovah's authority is the epitome of lawlessness. 

The scriptures in Genesis do not list what laws, rules, or principles spirit creatures live under. Based on our ability to reason on the scriptures, however, we know they have regulations and that Satan sinned when he opened his mouth to utter the first lie.