Shawnster

Most of all our ancestors, no doubt. OK, seriously now. My belief is that this planet, like our bodies, is designed to withstand and repair a certain amount of damage. A certain annual level of pollution could likely go unnoticed if used in a balanced way. Jehovah gave us these big brains to use. We need to crawl before we walk and walk before we run. Combustion engines might be a necessary stepping stone to even greater, cleaner methods of transportation. This doesn't knock walking, riding bikes or animals, or whatever else. There is room for everything.

Well, the Slave said their intention is to finish the Jesus drama even if it's in the new system. So, there is that...

Which is ironic because, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I would request my child be exempt or excluded from this curriculum if I lived in Texas. I was in high school when I studied and came into the Truth. At the same time there was a unit in school that was about the Bible. I think it was literature class (what else would it be). I brought home the textbook and showed the brother studying with me. He looked it over, shook his head, and recommended I get excused from the assignment. The textbook covered a couple of Jesus illustrations, then made the wrong application. As an impressionable teen just coming into the Truth, it would likely harm me spiritually to learn at school the wrong application of Jesus parables. The lesson? As Witnesses we do not want the State teaching our children Christendom's understanding of the scriptures. These Bible courses are, no doubt going to be more than simply reading the scriptures without application or discussion. The only source these schools have to create study guides are Christendom. Yes, and what does Christendom teach about the 23rd Psalm? This is typically connected with death and going to heaven with the verse about "walking through the shadow of the valley of death" cited as supporting this understanding. That, however, is a gross misapplication. This psalm is about the exact opposite. Instead of being a song about God's care as we pass from life to death, Psalm 23 is really about how we can trust in Jehovah’s care through the worst trials we face while still alive. *** w24 January p. 29 par. 12 Jehovah Has Tender Affection for You *** 12 Read Psalm 23:1-6. Psalm 23 is a song that expresses confidence in Jehovah’s love and tender care. David, the writer of this psalm, describes the strong bond that existed between him and his Shepherd, Jehovah. David felt safe letting Jehovah direct him, and he was totally dependent on Him. David knew that Jehovah’s love would pursue him all the days of his life. What made him so confident? https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2024246&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=21 I would not want my child, nor any child, exposed to Christendom's understanding of the scriptures. Even discussing the Bible as purely a literary work cuts so close to the line that I would want to preview what the State education system wanted to teach before I decided to allow my child to participate.

Now that I finally have time to reply.... You are right in that Genesis lists only 1 rule Adam and Eve had to follow and the consequences of breaking it. As stated, the Bible is written from the human point of view, so it's not necessary for us to know what rules angels live by. In regards Adam and Eve, there wasn't much they could do in the way of breaking God's laws. There was no one they could commit adultery with. There was nothing to steal. Etc... There is no reason, however, to conclude Satan didn't have laws and rules he should have followed. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. His ways and principles do not change and are timeless. Yes, sometimes laws change, but principles never change. One of Jehovah's principles is to be honest in all things. Another is to not seduce others into sin. So, regardless whether Adam and/or Eve remained faithful, the moment Satan lied he committed a sin. Jesus condemnation was in context of Satan's lie. (John 8:44) When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. *** it-2 “Satan” par. 6 Satan *** Issue of Sovereignty Raised. When Satan approached Eve (through the speech of the serpent), he actually challenged the rightfulness and righteousness of Jehovah’s sovereignty. He intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman; he also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Additionally, Satan made her believe she would be free and independent of God, becoming like God. https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200003845&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=7 Regardless whether Eve believed Satan or not, the lie and challenge to Jehovah’s sovereignty was made. Satan's mere raising the question challenged Jehovah's right to rule. Challenging Jehovah is a sin, wouldn't you agree? Would there need to be a rule in the scriptures before we conclude this is a sin? (1 John 3:4) 4 Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness. Challenging Jehovah's authority is the epitome of lawlessness. The scriptures in Genesis do not list what laws, rules, or principles spirit creatures live under. Based on our ability to reason on the scriptures, however, we know they have regulations and that Satan sinned when he opened his mouth to utter the first lie.

Well, let's reason on it. Lying is a sin. Satan is a liar. Murder is a sin. Satan is a manslayer. Disobedience is a sin. Satan committed a willful act of disobedience. Notice what the Insight book says about Satan *** it-2 “Satan” par. 4 Satan *** So, from a righteous, perfect start, this spirit person deviated into sin and degradation. The process bringing this about is described by James when he writes: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (Jas 1:14, 15) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19.—See PERFECTION (The first sinner and the king of Tyre). https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200003845&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par =5 Since the Slave is confident enough in stating that Satan "deviated into sin" then we can be confident in following their lead.

We absolutely do know. The Bible is pretty clear. (Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages sin pays is death. https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=45006023&srcid=share (James 1:15) sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death. https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=59001015&srcid=share Sin results in death. Everyone that sins is subject to death. Challenging Jehovah's sovereignty is a sin. For challenging Jehovah, Satan will die. He must die. Likewise, we know that Jehovah would never allow Satan to go and seduce a separate alien species as if Satan had free reign to corrupt the entire universe while he awaits execution. Jehovah's word is clear. If you know your bull is in the habit of hurting people and you don't restrain it, then you are responsible. After the first act of rebellion, Jehovah's justice forces him to restrain Satan so he does not hurt anyone innocent.

No. I was not saying. I was asking if that was what you saying. I was seeking clarification. Well, the topic was about extra terrestrials. And that's the ultimate point as to whether what the Bible describes applies to everyone, including these ETs, or if it only applies to humans. Some in this topic have stated the Bible, since it is only concerned with the human condition, cannot be used to disprove intelligent life on other planets. So, yes. Working with your analogy in relation to the topic, we must treat each group of humanity as distinct and separate groups instead of all coming from the same origin because, since this topic is about alien life, by definition those aliens would be separate and distinct from humans. That's the ultimate point of this discussion, whether such hypothetical aliens could or could not be used as witnesses to make a reply to Satan's challenge. I will respect your conclusion the answer is out of your reach.

Sounds like an easy way for an apostate to slip an ad to someone unexpectedly.

So looks like I understood 2 out of 3 parts. What did I misunderstand? So, at what point could Adam and Eve's continued loyalty be sufficient to provide an answer to Satan's challenge? Unless proven, how can Jehovah make a reply to the one taunting him? (Job 2:4) 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. While stated in Job, this is the crux of the entire account at Genesis chapter 3. Jehovah's creation is inherently flawed. People, even perfect people, only serve Jehovah as long as the good times roll. Take away their paradise and they will curse God. (Proverbs 27:11) 11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me. The only way Jehovah could make a reply was if humanity rebelled. Otherwise, how could Jehovah make a reply without proof?

Perhaps I do not understand. Based on your illustration, it sounds like humans (or any physical intelligence) must sin or needed to sin in order to prove Satan's accusation false. I mean, if the only way to prove water is healthier than soda is to allow a group of people to drink soda and develop health problems, then in order to prove water is healthier is that these groups of people must drink soda. No amount of study, research, or meditation will prove soda is unhealthy. So if drinking soda is equal to sin and rebellion, then Adam's sin and rebellion was inevitable. It had to happen. Satan could never be proved a liar. To take this a step further and apply it to multiple different physical intelligences (let's call them Martians), then they all must go through this process. This would be like each separate group of humans must perform their own soda drinking so that each group can prove soda is unhealthy for everyone. The accusation could be raised that soda drinking is only unhealthy for Polynesians or white people. Brown or tan skinned people or people who live in Scandinavia can drink soda and be just fine. One test cannot apply to all types of people and the only way to test the situation is through deliberate action. The only way to prove Jehovah's way of rulership is the best way of rulership is to go through sin, imperfection and death. And this only proves Jehovah's way of ruling is best only for humans. The Martians or Vulcans, or Wookies might actually be better off without Jehovah's rule. Each one of those separate physical intelligence must go through this same process because that's the only way. It's not possible to have one case study with one species apply to all physical creation. That's how I understand your point of view. Is that correct? What am I missing?

Just a clarification. Humans in the physical realm will never have immortality. That is reserved only for those human anointed sons of God. They receive immortality upon their resurrection to heaven.

Can't. Countries that are permanent members of the Security Council won't fill the position of Secretary General. https://betterworldcampaign.org/un-explained/becoming-secretary-general-how-the-worlds-top-diplomat-gets-the-job No Superpower Nationals: No citizen of a P5 country has ever become Secretary-General, as it would be viewed as biased.

Jehovah's one thought.

Guess that depends on whether or not you feel destroying Adam and Eve and starting with a new pair of humans violates that purpose. Or, perhaps Jehovah could have preserved their lives long enough to allow them to have children and he could/would shield such children from the effects of sin the way he did Jesus. *** g90 4/8 pp. 10-11 Extraterrestrials—Finding the Answer *** If God did create such beings, he did so before he created Adam and Eve. Such beings either remained faithful to their Creator, or like Adam and Eve, they sinned and fell into imperfection. But if they became imperfect, they needed a redeemer. As one essayist put it: “One has this dreadful thought that on Friday [the day Jesus Christ was executed], every Friday, somewhere in the universe Jesus is being hanged high for someone’s sins.” But that is not Scriptural. The Bible tells us that Jesus “died with reference to sin once for all time.”—Romans 6:10. What if these beings had remained perfect? Well, when Adam and Eve sinned, they were, in effect, questioning God’s right to rule over a world of intelligent physical beings. If another planet existed at that time, a world full of intelligent physical beings who were living harmoniously and loyally under God’s rule, would they not have been called in as witnesses to testify that God’s rule does indeed work? This conclusion seems inescapable, since he has already used even imperfect humans as witnesses in his behalf on that very issue.—Isaiah 43:10. https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=101990244&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=14

I want to believe, too. However, reasoning on the scriptures indicates otherwise. It's the issue of universal sovereignty that provides the conclusion that, currently, humans are the highest form of physical creation in this or any other galaxy. We are in this miserable state of imperfection in order for us to prove Satan a liar. If there were other intelligent creatures in the physical universe, they would have been created perfect. Their perfect devotion to Jehovah would show that Jehovah's physical creation is not flawed and that intelligent physical creatures with free will would serve Jehovah out of love. Their faithful example would prove Satan a liar. There would be no reason, no need to subject all humanity to 6,000+ years of suffering, pain, misery, and death. The 3 rebels in Eden would have been destroyed on the spot. The fact that we are Witnesses in this trial of universal sovereignty is indicated by the facts that the angels are intently watching how all this plays out, the rebellious spirit creatures in Noah's day chose humanity to live among, Satan tested humanity, and that 144,000 humans are (going to be) granted immortality, will sit on thrones and judge not only humans, but even angels. These anointed will live in heaven forever. All these factors added together indicate that this whole situation involving our salvation is not some minor event playing out on 1 planet while the rest of the physical universe is in harmony with Jehovah. No, what is happening here is the most important event in the physical universe. Now, after all this is settled, Satan is destroyed, and we all become children of God in the complete sense, then who knows? It's a big universe. Jehovah will want to do something on the 8th day.