woman to be executed for "apostasy"

[JahisKing]

I find it most interesting the many judgments that these comments contain--- from those who insist that they are not judging .

From my experience there are  not many of us ( Jehovah Witnesses) who actually understand the Trinity doctrine. I have had that same experience even with Christians who profess to believe in the Trinity.

I think you will find that not at all "Trinitarians " understand the unity of God Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same way. The basic doctrine of the Trinity is the belief that there is one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. . I guess it would be good to establish first what is meant by Trinity with the PERSON. Not everyone who uses this word has the same interpretation. Is it that God is the Father AND is the Son AND is the Holy Spirit? Or is it more that The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all divine and as such linked/ related but still independent? And what about the idea that the Father is God, Jesus is the God and the holy spirit is a force they both can use? In that sense, still working closely together but still independent.  I have not  come across one Trinitarian in my life that believes that Jesus is the Almighty God.

 

You all however are condemning the woman as believing in teachings of demons without having a single conversation with this woman . We can establish common ground with others while still denying outright teachings that are unscriptural teachings. ( Many variations of the trinity IMO are unscriptural.) This thread is not a debate on the trinity .( Obviously none of us believe in the Trinity)

 

I wonder how many of us ( JW's) would be willing to die for our given all the “accurate” knowledge that we have.  I can say this ….your knowledge is not accurate about this woman's situation or belief if you have not talked to this woman. 

 

If a potential Christian, Trinitarian or Householder were viewing some of your comments ….Would you be so …… well never mind.

 

We( JW’s) are unified in thought , beliefs and  doctrine. It would be a grave mistake to think that other religions are as well. (That includes the trinity doctrine).

 

 

Many of you have taken my comments wayyyy out of context . I believe my comments speak for themselves. I'll let others be the judge.( no pun intended....well maybe it was )

Edited June 2, 2014 by Musky

[Stavro]

I have not  come across one Trinitarian in my life that believes that Jesus is the Almighty God.

 

Then they aren't trinitarians at all, they're just using the word because it's listed on their church sign.

 

I've studied with a half dozen trinitarians so far who honestly believed that Jesus was God incarnate, and I've called on "trinity church" preachers who don't even know what the trinity is. So while we cannot know what her personal belief is, we do know that as an orthodox christian, her professed belief is in favor of the trinity.

 

I wonder how many of us ( JW's) would be willing to die for our given all the “accurate” knowledge that we have.  I can say this ….your knowledge is not accurate about this woman's situation or belief if you have not talked to this woman. 

 

The article gives us all the accurate knowledge we need about her situation. She does not follow Jehovah or any of his directions, she attends a church that preaches messages originally written by  apostates, and she is willing to die rather than recant her belief in the god of her professed religion.

 

I will not attempt to judge her worthiness for resurrection (or lack thereof), but we should not think more highly of her faith just because her false god is named "jesus" instead of Odin.

[JahisKing]

Then they aren't trinitarians at all, they're just using the word because it's listed on their church sign.

I've studied with a half dozen trinitarians so far who honestly believed that Jesus was God incarnate, and I've called on "trinity church" preachers who don't even know what the trinity is. So while we cannot know what her personal belief is, we do know that as an orthodox christian, her professed belief is in favor of the trinity.

The article gives us all the accurate knowledge we need about her situation. She does not follow Jehovah or any of his directions, she attends a church that preaches messages originally written by apostates, and she is willing to die rather than recant her belief in the god of her professed religion.

I will not attempt to judge her worthiness for resurrection (or lack thereof), but we should not think more highly of her faith just because her false god is named "jesus" instead of Odin.

What if someone read an article about us and said, The article gives us all the accurate knowledge I need about the situation. Would you feel the same way?

Jesus is not a "false" God. I hope you never go to anyone's door saying that. He is a God (Is 9:6 , John 1:1) But he is absolutely NOT Jehovah (or the Father as many people call them) That's what we are trying to help those who believe that appreciate.

And you will find a Trinitarians who believe in those variations still very much consider themselves a trinitarian. And if they do... Who are we to say that there are not?

Odin is a false god. And none of us can judge her worthiness of a resurrection. We can at least agree on that.

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[rocket]

Type the question into google, "Is Jesus Almighty God?"  See what trinitarians really believe.

[JahisKing]

Type the question into google, "Is Jesus Almighty God?" See what trinitarians really believe.

People should also type the following questions into google l:What do Jehovah's Witnesses really believe? Or Do JW's believe in Christ?

Will they see what JW's really believe? Or whether or not we really believe in Christ?

I would rather someone ask me, a Jehovah's Witness, what I believe. I'm offended at times when people insist that we do not believe in Jesus.

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[Pjdriver]

Sister Shantel, all we've done is quote the words of Jesus and Paul regarding knowledge faith and false worship vs true. Our comments are based on the fact that the woman belongs to a part of BTG. I have acknowledged the fact that she may not have had opportunity to hear and accept the truth. Our comments are based only on what we know. If she belongs to a religion and is willing to die for what she believes I guess I tend to think she should know the basics of what she's dying for. Maybe she doesn't understand exactly what the trinity is. Do you think she may also be confused about hellfire or the immortality of the soul?

You are correct, we cannot know her heart. Nobody is saying she is doomed and without hope....but our point is Simply:

WE WILL CERTAINLY NOT PUT HER ON PAR WITH JEHOVAH'S FAITHFUL SERVANTS WHO HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES FOR TRUE WORSHIP. That's what I think some of us (as least me) felt you were doing. I got the impression you believe that sincerity alone is acceptable to Jehovah. If I read wrong, then please accept my apology.

John 4: 24

"Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

[Lance]

I think the real central point to this discussion is about who Jesus Christ will and how he will judge all of mankind..

It seems everyone has an opinion as to how broad or narrow the judgement process will be...

So when this perpetual discussion takes place ..

I always like Romans 2:14 to get things in focus .. Because it deals with it on an individual basis .. Not a community basis

For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves.15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.

The key concept here is ..

One .. Jehovah allows Jesus to judge the secret things of all mankind ..

Notice it does say secret .. We as humans obviously do not and cannot know.. Those secrets

Second.. It is interesting their own thoughts and conscience are used as means of judgement ..

Another secret thing ..

What ever and who ever Jesus allows to pass through to his kingdom is his problem ..

Let's just share a glass of water with everyone .. Not just because it might be a brother of Christ .. But it is a kind loving thing .. To do to a fellow human .. Who was also created in Jehovah's image ..

[JahisKing]

That's what I think some of us (as least me) felt you were doing. I got the impression you believe that sincerity alone is acceptable to Jehovah. If I read wrong, then please accept my apology.

I appreciate your apology dear brother and for most importantly asking.

A few comments back , I already said that I didn't say that it doesn't matter that religion a person belongs to . Yet that's what these barrage of comments are responding too.

I'm not sure that you read that would imply that I am saying that . Or where you think I have said or implied that sincerity alone is acceptable to Jehovah?

I assure you I don't believe that.

How could I? Many of you are doing the very same thing I'm speaking against . Judging someone's belief system without asking. (Which kinda proves exactly what I am saying )

My responses were from the angle of the commentor who suggested that this would be a good field service topic. I assure you that going to the door armed to dispel a view ( Trinity,immortality of the soul, hell fire )and you are not even sure if the person even believes it in the way that you believe they do... Is not most effective. (and maybe offensive

Also, assuming all Orthodox (Jew's, Christians or Muslims ) believe this or don't believe in that... Is a mistake. I don't think the slave even makes such generalizations.

For instance, do all professed Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong? Do all Muslim religions believe Allah wants them to blow themselves up for their faith? (admittedly not great examples but hopefully you get my point)

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[JahisKing]

I think the real central point to this discussion is about who Jesus Christ will and how he will judge all of mankind..

It seems everyone has an opinion as to how broad or narrow the judgement process will be...

So when this perpetual discussion takes place ..

I always like Romans 2:14 to get things in focus .. Because it deals with it on an individual basis .. Not a community basis

For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves.15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.

The key concept here is ..

One .. Jehovah allows Jesus to judge the secret things of all mankind ..

Notice it does say secret .. We as humans obviously do not and cannot know.. Those secrets

Second.. It is interesting their own thoughts and conscience are used as means of judgement ..

Another secret thing ..

What ever and who ever Jesus allows to pass through to his kingdom is his problem ..

Let's just share a glass of water with everyone .. Not just because it might be a brother of Christ .. But it is a kind loving thing .. To do to a fellow human .. Who was also created in Jehovah's image ..

And there it is.... I agree wholeheartedly.

Where were you a few comments back ;)

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[Lance]

Where was I .. Reading Romans .-and . Matthew on who really is our neighbour ... And trying to figure out how to share the good news with a waitress in a restaurant ... The French toast with fresh strawberries was excellent .. I think I will use that as segue into the goodnews... God's creation..

I am trying ..

Edited June 2, 2014 by TheDoorGuy

[minister159]

@ Shantel:

 

In your comment #21, you speak of "this woman's willingness to die for her faith in Christ," "She is obedient to what she knows," and "We should all pray that we have similar courage to give up our lives for exercising faith in the one (Christ) who first gave up his life on our behalf." 

 

Since you seem to admire this woman's "faith," I'd like to ask the question, "Is faith based on falsehood or half-truths really true Christian faith or something else?" A person may have very strong convictions about something and still be misguided. For example, millions of patriotic, nationalistic individuals have offered themselves up to their god-like states on the altar of the battlefield as part of their "Christian" duty. Why? Due to their being mislead by false religion and demonic propaganda, as will be the case at Armageddon. --- Rev. 16:13-14.

 

True faith, by it's very definition, must be based on accurate knowledge to be of real value to its possessor. Otherwise, it's the blind leading the blind, and blind faith can dupe a person into believing his stubborn adherence to his beliefs has merit with God and makes him a true Christian martyr, when in fact, his death is in vain and of no value in answering Satan's challenge. In this regard, Jesus' words come to mind at Matt. 6:23, "If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!" As we know, Satan has used false religion to blind people's minds to the point that they believe they have been enlightened, but are still in mental darkness, and even more so.

 

Before we praise this woman for her "faith in Christ," we should consider Paul's words contrasting true worship with false and his emphasis on the impossibility of the slightest mixing of the two:

 

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship to righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Furthermore, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God's temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: " 'I will reside among them, and I will walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.' " " 'Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing' " 'and I will take you in.' " " 'And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,' says Jehovah, the Almighty.' " --- 2Cor. 6: 14-18.

[JahisKing]

@ Shantel:

In your comment #21, you speak of "this woman's willingness to die for her faith in Christ," "She is obedient to what she knows," and "We should all pray that we have similar courage to give up our lives for exercising faith in the one (Christ) who first gave up his life on our behalf."

Since you seem to admire this woman's "faith," I'd like to ask the question, "Is faith based on falsehood or half-truths really true Christian faith or something else?" A person may have very strong convictions about something and still be misguided. For example, millions of patriotic, nationalistic individuals have offered themselves up to their god-like states on the altar of the battlefield as part of their "Christian" duty. Why? Due to their being mislead by false religion and demonic propaganda, as will be the case at Armageddon. --- Rev. 16:13-14.

True faith, by it's very definition, must be based on accurate knowledge to be of real value to its possessor. Otherwise, it's the blind leading the blind, and blind faith can dupe a person into believing his stubborn adherence to his beliefs has merit with God and makes him a true Christian martyr, when in fact, his death is in vain and of no value in answering Satan's challenge. In this regard, Jesus' words come to mind at Matt. 6:23, "If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!" As we know, Satan has used false religion to blind people's minds to the point that they believe they have been enlightened, but are still in mental darkness, and even more so.

Before we praise this woman for her "faith in Christ," we should consider Paul's words contrasting true worship with false and his emphasis on the impossibility of the slightest mixing of the two:

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship to righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Furthermore, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God's temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: " 'I will reside among them, and I will walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.' " " 'Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing' " 'and I will take you in.' " " 'And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,' says Jehovah, the Almighty.' " --- 2Cor. 6: 14-18.

.

I agree with most of what you say and but I will leave your questions and comments to those who arguing against your points.

I am not.

Are you asking a specific question? :/

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[Stavro]

What if someone read an article about us and said, The article gives us all the accurate knowledge I need about the situation. Would you feel the same way?

Are you implying that she's really a Witness in disguise?

 

Jesus is not a "false" God. I hope you never go to anyone's door saying that.

 

Jesus is also not the Babylonian triad deity that the vast majority of Christendom worships under the name of "jesus".

 

Could you please clarify your point? Because unless I'm completely misinterpreting you, it seems you're praising this woman for her unwillingness to leave her chosen branch of Babylon the Great.

[carlos]

So these are the facts in this case:

 

- A woman is willing to be executed rather than recant her beliefs.

- We admire her courage and conviction, even if misled.

- Since she is Orthodox, she doesn't practice the true religion... at present. We hope she will in the future.

- In case she is finally killed (let's hope not), it's up to Jehovah to bring her back to life as he will with many others dying in this time.

 

Does anybody disagree with any of the statements above?

 

Sincerely, I don't understand what is being argued here and where is the discussion heading.

[JahisKing]

So these are the facts in this case:

- A woman is willing to be executed rather than recant her beliefs.

- We admire her courage and conviction, even if misled.

- Since she is Orthodox, she doesn't practice the true religion... at present. We hope she will in the future.

- In case she is finally killed (let's hope not), it's up to Jehovah to bring her back to life as he will with many others dying in this time.

Does anybody disagree with any of the statements above?

Sincerely, I don't understand what is being argued here and where is the discussion heading.

Very nice summary and inclusive of everything that were are unified on. Sometimes we focus so much on our slight differences we neglect to take note of the things we are in full agreement on.

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[palmhat]

I've reread this thread and am inclined to believe that people are misjudging what people are misjudgeing. Or am I...

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[JahisKing]

I've reread this thread and am inclined to believe that people are misjudging what people are misjudgeing. Or am I...

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Entirely possible lol (Myself included)

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[Lance]

Amen and amen.. Big picture .. Little picture

We have got it..

I think we have made a fine conclusion. To this topic

Let us move on..

Edited June 3, 2014 by TheDoorGuy

[carlos]

Although this topic is closed, I thought it interesting to add the latest news: the woman condemned to death in Sudan for being an Orthodox Christian has been released.

 

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/sudan-meriam-ibrahims-release-welcomed