Has the art of "Romantic Subtly" been lost?

[EccentricM]

This is mainly a topic about how younger modern girls act today in regards to dating, romantic approaches and so on. I've noticed, in my experience over time... women today don't seem to be the same as they were years ago. In what way you might ask?

 

Generally, I'd say, women would have good intution, good at picking up hints, and non-obvious approaches to romantic relationships or indication of attraction and interest. The art of... you look at her, she looks at you, you know what you both mean... gestures, eye contact, manner of speech, tone, favour, compliment. Things conveyed with respect, yet intent, without actual direct word. The craft of trying to "get close" without actually spelling it out in order not to come across as a bull in a china shop, aka "I REALLY LIKE YOU, DATE ME, I LOVE YOU, HEY".

 

 

But  modern women aren't the same as women used to be... Many I've noticed, and encountered, don't seem to have a "clue" when a man is "coming on to her", until its spelled out and suddenly they say "oh, I had no idea!? What?!". Have they lost the art of intuition, "game" and subtly? As if so many women today have become oblivious to the "approach". It seems these days they only respond to the blatant, or the "overly" direct, or things that are more "fleshly", physical. Things for the longest time men were told not to be, lest they scare a woman off for being too creepy, intense or blarsey.

 

Sometimes it makes me feel like I'm a I'm a 1930s gentlemen living in a primative, clumbsy and heavy handed world. Lol.

 

 

Some part of me thinks it's because women and men are more on "equal plains" today, but there must be more too, it's like.. a social disability now almost, to not "get it", when a man is doing that. I think as well so many women and men are "just friends" today as well, they find it harder to pick up the hints of "I'm spending time with you because I actually love you, more than just a friend", where as in the past there was more of a... segregation of the sexes, so when a man merely spent a lot of his "attention" on a woman, it was a sign, but.. today I think in this world, that's lost too, and so with it, the women's intuition of when I man is saying "I like you" without saying "I like you" is also lost.

Edited November 30, 2020 by EccentricM

[Hope]

I think it's because of such a change in dating protocol in general. For a woman to presume a man likes her without clarity from him can be embarrassing or worse. Many men enjoy being players, so the instinct women may/may not have doesn't feel as trustworthy. 

 

I know for myself, unless a brother would actually say, "I'd like to get to know you better,  Uani"... and I feel the same, there will be no "hints" I'll pick up on. I've never been great at intuition.. I'm always wrong on that end.

[careful]

i agree with uani here....my daughter years ago would tell me about the "witness" men she would date and i couldnt believe what players they were.  When its become a game...then no one can trust the signals to be sincere anymore.   A single witness would need to be so careful.

[Myew]

I never gave it much direct thought before. I figured it was implied in how the Bible says people would act in the last days. (2 Timothy 3:2-3) "For men will be lovers of themselves.. having no natural affection.. fierce.. headstrong." It does seem to be more progressive which each generation. It affects us growing up with the world's air constantly putting that pressure on us. As these sisters brought out, it's probably harder for us to relate to what it feels like growing up with men flirting at them constantly and having to purposefully ignore or dismiss it. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I do think most women notice the cues, but they probably prefer to ignore it or play dumb because they're either not ready for it, aren't sure how they feel, haven't learned how to respond because it's not taught anymore, or they're afraid of what it could mean for a friendship. Personally, I'm okay with that, because it makes it easier now to try and wait until after the great tribulation when the current problems won't interfere with relationships as Jehovah intended them. I'm all for romantic ideals, and I don't believe for a second that the 'art' of non verbal communication will ever be truly lost, because that is part of how Jehovah designed us to be social. I just don't think that it's functional for most people in this system, only the very fortunate. I've had some sisters as friends for a few years, and that's really great. Unfortunately I'm also terrible at hiding my affection, despite not feeling capable of caring for a mate yet. I try to be very careful to control how I act, but even if I make a mistake, I'm fine with things as they are and sisters ignoring my blunders. If and when I'm ready and willing to act with intent, I'm just going to write a letter or out and say it. And that's okay too, even if it's not 'As you wish.' 😏

https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/original-songs/take-your-time-choose-wisely/?content=video

Edited December 1, 2020 by Myew

[JennyM]

16 hours ago, Hope said:

I think it's because of such a change in dating protocol in general. For a woman to presume a man likes her without clarity from him can be embarrassing or worse. Many men enjoy being players, so the instinct women may/may not have doesn't feel as trustworthy. 

 

Im absolutely agree with you sister. . We dont want to appear like we are so desperate with men`s attention.  Unless if its directly told then I would believe that he likes me.. 

The bible mention that we treat others  as brothers and sisters, father or mothers, not just for romantic purposes..

 

Here, theres an Irish brother who dated almost any single filipino sisters.... Hes like a bee that transfer from flowers to flowers. Until, all the sisters found out and they never would like to make friends until he went back to his country....

 

Another example, is that I became friendly to all brothers and when I talk to a married, all eyes are on us.... As in I told to myself. What! Hes just a friend of mine not a romantic interest.. Besides, I dont want to commit adultery at all. Oh my, theres a lot of brothers or men that I dont want to be involved with a married man!

 

 

[Dustparticle]

2 hours ago, JennyM said:

Im absolutely agree with you sister. . We dont want to appear like we are so desperate with men`s attention.  Unless if its directly told then I would believe that he likes me.. 

The bible mention that we treat others  as brothers and sisters, father or mothers, not just for romantic purposes..

 

Here, theres an Irish brother who dated almost any single filipino sisters.... Hes like a bee that transfer from flowers to flowers. Until, all the sisters found out and they never would like to make friends until he went back to his country....

 

Another example, is that I became friendly to all brothers and when I talk to a married, all eyes are on us.... As in I told to myself. What! Hes just a friend of mine not a romantic interest.. Besides, I dont want to commit adultery at all. Oh my, theres a lot of brothers or men that I dont want to be involved with a married man!

 

 

Good points sis. That brother should not mess with sisters feelings. It is very serious when you date someone and it is sad that some do not view it that way. Yes, you heard it from a brother that some Irish blood in him.

[Skyler]

15 hours ago, Myew said:

 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I do think most women notice the cues, but they probably prefer to ignore it or play dumb because they're either not ready for it, aren't sure how they feel, haven't learned how to respond because it's not taught anymore, or they're afraid of what it could mean for a friendship. 

You got it, Alex! 😂 I know when I'm being flirted with, but I play dumb when worldly people flirt with me. It's easier than turning them down and them not taking no for an answer.  Women don't always have the convenience of telling the truth, there are a lot of men (and surprisingly aggressive lesbians!) that will turn to harassment and violence if you say no. When it's a witness I tell them the truth.  I tell them I'm married to my ministry. I'm not in a position to date right now, I have many responsibilities that take precedent. If they are raised well they understand, if they persist or get angry then I know I made the right choice in turning them down anyway. I would like to date someday, but it will be my choice when to do it. 😊

[JennyM]

2 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

Good points sis. That brother should not mess with sisters feelings. It is very serious when you date someone and it is sad that some do not view it that way. Yes, you heard it from a brother that some Irish blood in him.

its just unbelievable that even jw brothers can do that. 

[Nelly Kim]

21 hours ago, Hope said:

 

I know for myself, unless a brother would actually say, "I'd like to get to know you better,  Uani"... and I feel the same, there will be no "hints" I'll pick up on. 

I agree completely. It's best for the Brother to express himself frankly, to avoid misunderstanding. I know of a Brother here who went about telling people of how desperate sister are getting. That while hanging out with a sister, He wanted to inquire of something, so  he started his statement with the words " I want to" and immediately the sister said " Marry me? Yes! Yes Brother!!! "   I felt soo embarrassed hearing him speak of sisters that way... Thankfully he never mentioned any name, though everyone started speculating it this sister or that sister. So @Matthew dear, its not that sisters have lost their intuition... Its not supposed to be a hide and seek game.    ( at lest not on the side of the guys) If you want a damsel, go ask her out,, frankly.   ( Smiling)

[Nelly Kim]

4 hours ago, Skyler said:

You got it, Alex! 😂 I know when I'm being flirted with, but I play dumb when worldly people flirt with me. It's easier than turning them down and them not taking no for an answer.  Women don't always have the convenience of telling the truth, there are a lot of men (and surprisingly aggressive lesbians!) that will turn to harassment and violence if you say no. When it's a witness I tell them the truth.  I tell them I'm married to my ministry. I'm not in a position to date right now, I have many responsibilities that take precedent. If they are raised well they understand, if they persist or get angry then I know I made the right choice in turning them down anyway. I would like to date someday, but it will be my choice when to do it. 😊

So True...

[EccentricM]

It seems then, modern culture and all the men who play with women's feelings and how many today flirt for fun, have had an influence on most women today. Because so many men are flirtatious without being genuine, it's made it so women don't take the men who actually mean it seriously....

[Hope]

Yep. So the man needs to be sure about his feelings and relate them clearly to his intended. That way, both know where they stand.

[Myew]

It's also appreciated when a women clearly expresses her intentions verbally. I think Jehovah took away our ability of telepathy after Adam listened to Eve, so he would pay closer attention next time. 😁

Edited December 2, 2020 by Myew

[Amygdala]

In my single days, I was taken by surprise in Canada when 3 brothers (over the years) asked me out directly, as I really didn't see any kind of flirting or signs. But perhaps because I didn't want to see the signs. Though I did went on to get engaged to one when I was 21, but it didn't work out. I think in general it is a good idea to be friends first, but if there is genuine interest on both sides, then any signs shouldn't be too hard to miss. Although flirting in general is not encouraged between the family of our brotherhood.

 

It shouldn't be too difficult to express interest if there is a general understanding, or what some may call "chemistry" between two individuals. I think this is the advantage of meeting or knowing someone face-to-face vs.online, where you can't really gauge nuances, body language, or just general communication. Although I have known of a couple who did meet online and got married, and are still serving Jehovah faithfully today. It could also be friendly talk or feelings of affection might be heightened more online than in person, perhaps confusing the matter even more.

 

 

[coony77]

On 11/30/2020 at 7:48 PM, EccentricM said:

Sometimes it makes me feel like I'm a I'm a 1930s gentlemen living in a primative, clumbsy and heavy handed world. Lol.

 

At least the world had real gentlemen then!!!😉

 

Seriously, on the one hand it's sad but on the other hand "hints" can be misunderstood (or overestimated). In order to avoid this, many people prefer clear words. 

[Cushi]

On 12/1/2020 at 5:16 AM, JennyM said:

Here, theres an Irish brother who dated almost any single filipino sisters.... Hes like a bee that transfer from flowers to flowers. Until, all the sisters found out and they never would like to make friends until he went back to his country....

lol I know a brother who did that. When you said that I pictured a bee going from flower to flower 😆 🐝 

[JennyM]

1 hour ago, Brother Jack said:

lol I know a brother who did that. When you said that I pictured a bee going from flower to flower 😆 🐝 

I dont know if that is for ego boosting or what?! A spiritual filipino brother  approach a sister on a date with a marriage in mind. ... Hes sick.. Actually, a lot of brothers like that . Thats why when a brother approach me now, I view  him as just another guy whos just checking me out and his interest will gone tomorrow and move to other one. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by JennyM

[Cushi]

1 minute ago, JennyM said:

I dont know if that is for ego boosting or what?! A spiritual filipino brother  approach a sister on a date with a marriage in mind. ... Hes sick.. Actually, a lot of brothers like that . Thats why when a brother approach me now, I view  him as just another guy whos just checking me out and his interest will gone tomorrow and move to other one. 

I can’t speak on why any brother would do this but the brother I spoke of expressed that he was lonely. He just about tried to date every single sister in the congregation. And we have a lot of them. He eventually got married but the sister left him within a few months of being married to him. How sad. That’s why I don’t think it’s wise to get married just because you’re lonely. It can cloud your judgment. Just like it’s not wise to get married just to enjoy sexual relations. That can cloud your judgement too.

 

As far as dating with marriage in mind, I would hope that any witness male or female who decided to date is contemplating marriage. I just wouldn’t bring it up on the first date.

[JennyM]

1 hour ago, Brother Jack said:

I can’t speak on why any brother would do this but the brother I spoke of expressed that he was lonely. He just about tried to date every single sister in the congregation. And we have a lot of them. He eventually got married but the sister left him within a few months of being married to him. How sad. That’s why I don’t think it’s wise to get married just because you’re lonely. It can cloud your judgment. Just like it’s not wise to get married just to enjoy sexual relations. That can cloud your judgement too.

 

As far as dating with marriage in mind, I would hope that any witness male or female who decided to date is contemplating marriage. I just wouldn’t bring it up on the first date.

True... Several brothers here married because the sisters were good looking and financially rich regardless of their spirituality.. Eventually, those sisters left them for another guy and those brothers ended up depressed for years and took care of their children alone or their children just drifted away from the truth.... Sadly, its the way man sees on how God sees.. And money talks . 

[JennyM]

Its so hard to be happy these days... With all the injustices happening @Brother Jack

[Cushi]

6 minutes ago, JennyM said:

True... Several brothers here married because the sisters were good looking and financially rich regardless of their spirituality.. Eventually, those sisters left them for another guy and those brothers ended up depressed for years and took care of their children alone or their children just drifted away from the truth.... Sadly, its the way man sees on how God sees.. And money talks . 

While it’s true that Jehovah sees into the heart, Jehovah did create men to be visual. That’s just how we are. I don’t think it’s wrong to want a drop dead gorgeous wife. I don’t know any single man, brother or not who doesn’t. What I do think is wrong is to pay attention only to her beauty and ignore her lack of spirituality or any other major undesirable traits. I want both spiritual and physical beauty in a mate. I couldn’t date a sister who’s attractive but doesn’t have a strong relationship with Jehovah.

 

It’s not uncommon for people in the world to marry for money but I could never understand why some witnesses do it, brothers included. We’re supposed to marry with everlasting life in view. Money is temporary. Marriage is permanent, or at least if both of you survive into God’s new world. What are you going to do when the Armageddon smoke clears and the money is gone?

 

 

@EccentricM sorry for getting off topic.

[JennyM]

1 hour ago, Brother Jack said:

While it’s true that Jehovah sees into the heart, Jehovah did create men to be visual. That’s just how we are. I don’t think it’s wrong to want a drop dead gorgeous wife. I don’t know any single man, brother or not who doesn’t. What I do think is wrong is to pay attention only to her beauty and ignore her lack of spirituality or any other major undesirable traits. I want both spiritual and physical beauty in a mate. I couldn’t date a sister who’s attractive but doesn’t have a strong relationship with Jehovah.

 

It’s not uncommon for people in the world to marry for money but I could never understand why some witnesses do it, brothers included. We’re supposed to marry with everlasting life in view. Money is temporary. Marriage is permanent, or at least if both of you survive into God’s new world. What are you going to do when the Armageddon smoke clears and the money is gone?

 

 

Women have eyes too. But most women are reasonable I think. 

We cant have both worlds. Some beautiful sisters are proud, and impatient. 

 

Anyway, most brothers would like to date a package, young, pretty and and with a good job. 

 

Or for a single CO in 50 like to date an RP in their late 29s...... Dating is really complicated. 

[Cushi]

1 minute ago, JennyM said:

Women have eyes too. But most women are reasonable I think. 

We cant have both worlds. Some beautiful sisters are proud, and impatient. 

 

Anyway, most brothers would like to date a package, young, pretty and and with a good job. 

 

Or for a single CO in 50 like to date an RP in their late 29s...... Dating is really complicated. 

I know a lot of pretty sisters may feel like they don’t have to offer as much but I refuse to lower my standards. Life is too long (God’s new world) for that. I have all the time in the world to find a mate. 
It may be a cultural thing. It’s true that some men are sorry and will use a woman for her money. But most men care more about a woman’s attitude and disposition than about her money and status in life. Men don’t value the same things in women that women do in men. If a man had a lot of money he may want a woman who makes a decent amount too so he knows she’s not after his money. But for the most part men don’t care about money and status.

[Cushi]

@JennyM pm me if you’d like. Don’t want the topic to stay off topic. I know... I started it.

[EccentricM]

6 minutes ago, JennyM said:

Or for a single CO in 50 like to date an RP in their late 29s......

This form of "congregational classism" (a term I can best describe it) sometimes bothers me. People seek out someone with a "position", or a label, as opposed to actually dating the person for who they are as an individual. That being said on the otherside, someone may date someone with a position as they deem that as "part" of their personalilty, wanting someone who has an outgoing pioneer lifestyle or what have you. But sometimes this approach or advice of "just marry a pioneer" or "just marry an Elder" or just marry.... as some may say, can be flawed, as you're banking solely on having the same "faith" or strong belief in common, which is important, but it disregards "other" key elements in my view.

 

Marrying someone with a "position" is not a guarantee for happiness or "chemisty", it is merely one part of a larger piece.