Sweden Ends Its Pandemic Experimen

[Mykyl]

4 hours ago, Thesauron said:

I am not here to educate you about this in this thread, but the governing body has instructed the branch to follow the guidance of the authorities in this respect here in this country for the very reason I mentioned, just as they request the brothers follow the various instructions from other governmental authorities in other countries.

True but that does not negate using common sense. 

Common sense does not mean that we need a new Ten Commandments of how to deal with covid.

We can use our common sense and therefore we can go a step beyond when choosing how to protect others and potentially ourselves regardless of what local authorities are saying.

If we don't use then we can end up finding hindsight can be a terrible thing we may have to have to deal with...

Edited December 10, 2020 by Mykyl

[Amygdala]

Germany was quick to impose restrictions and enforce mask wearing, so that even though other parts of Europe cases of COVID were rising, the numbers were low and manageable. After the lockdown ended, cases began to rise, travel bans within states were starting to be imposed, specifically from hotspot areas, and a partial lockdown was imposed again in November, now stretching through to December. However, the news reported that yesterday Germany had the greatest number of deaths reported within 24 hours, at ca.590 deaths. All the while masks have been mandatory since the beginning. There's no mincing about words here with the politicians and heads of power. So talk is about going into full lockdown once again directly right after christmas, so as to ensure that this is not the "last christmas with the grandparents."

 

I have to go in for a non life-threatening operation next week, and the doctor's office is about an hour away. I will be fully under anesthesia, so am not allowed to drive myself home afterwards, therefore my husband has to help. The problem is who will open the door when our daughter arrives home for school, and she's too young to stay home by herself? We thought about my elderly inlaws, who are very high risk. Neighbors? My inlaws and my daughter wearing masks the whole time they are looking after her? We are not allowed to take our daughter out of school, but the direction is stay away from the elderly. So we have to make other arrangements.

 

It's hard for me to put my head around those who feel no need to take precautions, because some may view it as a choice and not see the greater, bigger picture. Sure we would love for our daughter to finally see and spend time with her grandparents, and she misses them, too. But if it's just this one time, the one excuse to let them come, be the reason for their getting sick, or even possibly worse dying, would be a horrible thing to carry around. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Lieblingskind

[Thesauron]

True but that does not negate using common sense. 
Common sense does not mean that we need a new Ten Commandments of how to deal with covid.
We can use our common sense and therefore we can go a step beyond when choosing how to protect others and potentially ourselves regardless of what local authorities are saying.
If we don't use then we can end up finding hindsight can be a terrible thing we may have to have to deal with...

It is left up to each family head to decide what is best for their families. We do not have the right to say anything, so some chose to wear masks at times, others do not.

[hatcheckgirl]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

It is left up to each family head to decide what is best for their families. We do not have the right to say anything, so some chose to wear masks at times, others do not.

It’s true, and everyone’s situation is different. Are people social distancing at least? Is it an outdoors activity? Things like these may lessen the risk. If it’s an indoors activity, or one where it is not possible to be socially distant, a mask would offer some protection. Mandatory mask wearing occurred in Melbourne, and Sydney when they had localised outbreaks, but it was part of the overall strategy to get numbers down. It has been eliminated in the community now. Only cases are returned travellers, and that is being managed with quarantine. But when I am in Sydney visiting my family, and using public transport, I wore a mask as an added protection. But where I live in Western Australia, covid was eliminated months ago and hardly anyone wears masks.  
 

With Sweden still having active cases, personally I would be wearing a mask in public, as well as social distancing and regular hand washing, things that we have become used to doing in this unusual year.

[Thesauron]

It’s true, and everyone’s situation is different. Are people social distancing at least? Is it an outdoors activity? Things like these may lessen the risk. If it’s an indoors activity, or one where it is not possible to be socially distant, a mask would offer some protection. Mandatory mask wearing occurred in Melbourne, and Sydney when they had localised outbreaks, but it was part of the overall strategy to get numbers down. It has been eliminated in the community now. Only cases are returned travellers, and that is being managed with quarantine. But when I am in Sydney visiting my family, and using public transport, I wore a mask as an added protection. But where I live in Western Australia, covid was eliminated months ago and hardly anyone wears masks.  
 
With Sweden still having active cases, personally I would be wearing a mask in public, as well as social distancing and regular hand washing, things that we have become used to doing in this unusual year.

Some chose to wear masks not to contaminate others, if they have some symptoms.

People are good at distancing, most of the time. Of course, if you look for it, you will find exceptions. But we, as Witnesses, follow the branch guidelines to refrain from meeting others, stay at home as much as possible, and isolate, combined with maintaining a good hygiene, and basic things, such as how to coughing. This have meant that most areas in Sweden have no great problems at all.

[humble bumble bee]

Interesting article on Sweden

Coronavirus: Swedish King Carl XVI Gustaf says coronavirus approach 'has failed'

 

Quote

Sweden's king has said his country "failed" to save lives with its relatively relaxed approach to the coronavirus pandemic.

King Carl XVI Gustaf made the remarks as part of an annual TV review of the year with the royal family.

 

According to an official report released earlier this week, the strategy failed in its effort to protect the elderly in care homes - for which the government has admitted responsibility.

Over 90% of Covid-related deaths have been among those aged 70 and over, and nearly half of all Covid deaths have been in care homes, the government says.

It's the treatment of the elderly - when it's bad, in any country - that is so upsetting me.

[Bob]

12 minutes ago, humblebumblebee said:

Interesting article on Sweden

Coronavirus: Swedish King Carl XVI Gustaf says coronavirus approach 'has failed'

 

It's the treatment of the elderly - when it's bad, in any country - that is so upsetting me.

Yeah, and not protecting the elderly was also an issue here in places like New York, Michigan, and I believe Florida, if I am not mistaken. Also, like 40 percent of all US deaths are among the elderly.

[hatcheckgirl]

2 minutes ago, Bob said:

Yeah, and not protecting the elderly was also an issue here in places like New York, Michigan, and I believe Florida, if I am not mistaken. Also, like 40 percent of all US deaths are among the elderly.

No one seemed to learn the lesson from Italy at the beginning of the pandemic.  The elderly were hit very hard then. I think all countries have failed their elderly. Jer 10:23

[Bob]

4 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

No one seemed to learn the lesson from Italy at the beginning of the pandemic.  The elderly were hit very hard then. I think all countries have failed their elderly. Jer 10:23

Well, I wouldn’t say Italy failed to protect their elderly, necessarily. 

 

Italy’s culture is much different than ours. Italian’s are very close-knit, they kiss a lot, and they live in multigenerational households.

 

So Italy’s downfall was that young, perhaps asymptomatic people brought it back home to their grandparents and parents. 
 

Secondly, Italy has like one of the oldest populations in the world by average age, they smoke, and aren’t the healthiest of eaters. 
 

So I think their downfall was more culture related early on, which overwhelmed the healthcare system there. 
 

Sad still though. 

[Shawnster]

Sweden's king says 'we have failed' over COVID-19

 

STOCKHOLM -- Sweden's king said his country had failed in its handling of COVID-19, in a sharp criticism of a pandemic policy partly blamed for a high death toll among the elderly.

 

Carl XVI Gustaf, whose son and daughter-in-law tested positive last month, used an annual royal Christmas TV special to highlight the growing impact of the virus, in a rare intervention from a monarch whose duties are largely ceremonial.

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/sweden-s-king-says-we-have-failed-over-covid-19-as-deaths-mount-1.5235549

 

Interesting... 

 

I also received this update last night about friends I have on Sweden. 

 

 

Sweden is now starting restrictions, but still not masking.  They are in crisis.  My friend said now on news they are saying if you go out and have a wreck they don't have drs or hospitals to treat you, you are on your own.  So now finally the country is encouraging essential outings only.  But so far they are safe as well as the rest of the family there.  

[Thesauron]

Sweden's king says 'we have failed' over COVID-19
 
STOCKHOLM -- Sweden's king said his country had failed in its handling of COVID-19, in a sharp criticism of a pandemic policy partly blamed for a high death toll among the elderly.
 
Carl XVI Gustaf, whose son and daughter-in-law tested positive last month, used an annual royal Christmas TV special to highlight the growing impact of the virus, in a rare intervention from a monarch whose duties are largely ceremonial.
 
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/sweden-s-king-says-we-have-failed-over-covid-19-as-deaths-mount-1.5235549
 
Interesting... 
 
I also received this update last night about friends I have on Sweden. 
 
 
Sweden is now starting restrictions, but still not masking.  They are in crisis.  My friend said now on news they are saying if you go out and have a wreck they don't have drs or hospitals to treat you, you are on your own.  So now finally the country is encouraging essential outings only.  But so far they are safe as well as the rest of the family there.  

This is a misunderstanding. Sweden has had restrictions in place since the beginning of the pandemic. They are not just now starting. They have always encouraged essential outings only, in a way.

[Bob]

19 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

This is a misunderstanding. Sweden has had restrictions in place since the beginning of the pandemic. They are not just now starting. They have always encouraged essential outings only, in a way.

Right. Sweden was only against hard lockdowns and authoritarian mandates. Not restrictions. 

[Bob]

NVM

Edited December 17, 2020 by Bob

[Thesauron]

Right. Sweden was only against hard lockdowns and authoritarian mandates. Not restrictions. 

There were no laws in place to force the population to stay at home or to force businesses to close. There still is not, but there are restrictions and very strong advice.

[Bob]

1 minute ago, Thesauron said:

There were no laws in place to force the population to stay at home or to force businesses to close. There still is not, but there are restrictions and very strong advice.

Well, I think that's because they have a better understanding of human nature than most others. The harder the grip you place on people, the more they resist. The less the grip, the easier the compliance. 

 

In the US, I think politics and avoiding blame drives the polices more than reason and common sense.

[hatcheckgirl]

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Secondly, Italy has like one of the oldest populations in the world by average age, they smoke, and aren’t the healthiest of eaters. 

Just wanted to know how you they are unhealthy eaters? Are you aware the Mediterranean diet is one of the healthiest in the world? Your broad and sweeping comment is showing that you don’t really understand why I brought up the situation in Italy, and is frankly just your uneducated opinion. 
 

The point I was trying to say in the context of this discussion is that what befell Italy should have alerted other nations the vulnerability of the elderly and take action to protect them. Including Sweden. But, now let’s hope the lesson is learned. 

[Bob]

1 minute ago, hatcheckgirl said:

Just wanted to know how you they are unhealthy eaters? Are you aware the Mediterranean diet is one of the healthiest in the world? Your broad and sweeping comment is showing that you don’t really understand why I brought up the situation in Italy, and is frankly just your uneducated opinion. 

Please, lets not make this personal, my sister...

 

1 minute ago, hatcheckgirl said:

The point I was trying to say in the context of this discussion is that what befell Italy should have alerted other nations the vulnerability of the elderly and take action to protect them. Including Sweden. But, now let’s hope the lesson is learned. 

But back in March, we all were learning about this thing. I cannot fault the world for making mistakes early on. 

[Shawnster]

4 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

The point I was trying to say in the context of this discussion is that what befell Italy should have alerted other nations the vulnerability of the elderly and take action to protect them. Including Sweden. But, now let’s hope the lesson is learned. 

I was expecting more places to be like Italy or NYC. I'm actually surprised that most everywhere they flattened the curve enough.  This could have been much worse. 

[hatcheckgirl]

And I was making the point that the world hasn’t really done enough to learn from what happened to the Italians and their elderly families, ie to learn from the past experience and avoid it. Surely Sweden is now regretting that. Even Victoria recognised the failings of not looking after its elderly. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32206-6/fulltext
 

And I’m sorry my comment Bob, as I was not trying to upset you. What you have said, though your opinion, was implying the diet was to blame. Italians have a healthier diet than what you may eat in US. And unless it’s something you know about, then modesty would require we refrain from commenting. I also need to apply this and back up what I say with facts. Again, sorry. 

[Thesauron]

And I was making the point that the world hasn’t really done enough to learn from what happened to the Italians and their elderly families, ie to learn from the past experience and avoid it. Surely Sweden is now regretting that. Even Victoria recognised the failings of not looking after its elderly. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32206-6/fulltext
 
And I’m sorry my comment Bob, as I was not trying to upset you. What you have said, though your opinion, was implying the diet was to blame. Italians have a healthier diet than what you may eat in US. And unless it’s something you know about, then modesty would require we refrain from commenting. I also need to apply this and back up what I say with facts. Again, sorry. 

Yes, I am sure many parts of the world will review how they could have protected their elderly better. But it isn’t easy. Many elderly felt that they do not have long to live, and that they were unfairly removed from their families and friends for an unknown period of time, perhaps until death. So which approach is better?

[Bob]

8 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

And I was making the point that the world hasn’t really done enough to learn from what happened to the Italians and their elderly families, ie to learn from the past experience and avoid it. Surely Sweden is now regretting that. Even Victoria recognised the failings of not looking after its elderly. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32206-6/fulltext
 

And I’m sorry my comment Bob, as I was not trying to upset you. What you have said, though your opinion, was implying the diet was to blame. Italians have a healthier diet than what you may eat in US. And unless it’s something you know about, then modesty would require we refrain from commenting. I also need to apply this and back up what I say with facts. Again, sorry. 

Well, I said smoking, culture, average age, and diet. It’s in the post you replied to. 
 

Basically a combination of things. 

[Shawnster]

8 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Yes, I am sure many parts of the world will review how they could have protected their elderly better. But it isn’t easy. Many elderly felt that they do not have long to live, and that they were unfairly removed from their families and friends for an unknown period of time, perhaps until death. So which approach is better?

Wonder how our elderly members on this site feel. 

[Qapla]

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Wonder how our elderly members on this site feel. 

 

I appreciate that, regardless of what any Gov't said or required (or didn't require), that the direction from the FDS was universal, protecting young and old alike. They used common sense in their recommendation's and meeting attendance as well as Field Service.

 

The fact that these changes are still in effect should tell us something ... JMHO

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Qapla

[Thesauron]

 
I appreciate that, regardless of what any Gov't said or required (or didn't require), that the direction from the FDS was universal, protecting young and old alike. They used common sense in their recommendation's and meeting attendance as well as Field Service.
 
The fact that these changes are still in effect should tell us something ... JMHO
 

The recommendations are similar but adjusted according to local circumstances for all publishers except full time volunteers.

[Qapla]

2 hours ago, Thesauron said:

The recommendations are similar but adjusted according to local circumstances

 

Are you saying that the FDS has sent a letter to the Congregations stating that there is no longer a need to take precautions? That wearing a mask is no longer a good idea or that social distancing is no longer needed? That we can resume door-to-door ministry and full use of the KH? That the pandemic is over and "life-as-usual" can now resume?

 

Has such a letter been read in your Congregation?