Circumference and Diameter

[Hava Saber]

I just found this paragraph while reading recently and I want you all to find the needed value.

Quote

Myth: The Bible says that the circumference of a circle is exactly three times its diameter, but the correct value is pi (π), or about 3.1416.

 

 Fact: The measurements of “the Sea of cast metal” given at 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2 indicate that it had a diameter of 10 cubits and that “it took a measuring line 30 cubits long to encircle it.” These dimensions might have been merely the nearest round numbers. It is also possible that the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively.

 

—ijwbq article 82

 

My question is if the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively, what is the thickness from outer to inner of the Sea of cast metal?

 

Let your numbers play... 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Hava Saber

[Br. Ice]

 

1 hour ago, Hava Saber said:

thickness from outer to inner of the Sea of cast metal

If I’m not mistaken the thickness is stated at 1 Kings 7:26 “its thickness was a handbreadth”: about 7.4 cm (2.9 in.)

 

So, unless your question is about something else, that should answer it.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Br. Ice

[Hava Saber]

4 hours ago, Br. Ice said:

If I’m not mistaken the thickness is stated at 1 Kings 7:26 “its thickness was a handbreadth”: about 7.4 cm (2.9 in.)

 

So, unless your question is about something else, that should answer it.

Thank you for this, Brother Isaac, yes yours was correct. I do read the verse you've mentioned.

 

Mathematically, I do really confused... If anyone can explain that would be great.

 

Here's what I found online...

 

 

I do have solution, but it doesn't match to the verse.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Hava Saber

[Br. Ice]

Note to the mods, maybe this topic could be moved to: Bible Research, Personal Study, & Scriptural Discussion

[kejedo]

The lower diameter would be 9.549304  In general rounding this would be 10.

[hatcheckgirl]

Here is what my research came up with on these verses (from research guide and other sources):

 

Up to the time of Archimedes [third century B.C.E.], the circumference of a circle was always measured in straight lines by the radius; and Hiram would naturally describe the sea as thirty cubits round, measuring it, as was then invariably the practice, by its radius, or semi-diameter, of five cubits, which being applied six times round the perimeter, or ‘brim,’ would give the thirty cubits stated. There was evidently no intention in the passage but to give the dimensions of the Sea, in the usual language that every one would understand, measuring the circumference in the way in which all skilled workers, like Hiram, did measure circles at that time. He, of course, must however have known perfectly well, that as the polygonal hexagon thus inscribed by the radius was thirty cubits, the actual curved circumference would be somewhat more.

 

It appears that the ratio of three to one (that is, the circumference being three times the diameter) was a customary way of stating matters, intended to be understood as only approximate.

 

Another thought:
It is also possible that the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively.

Consider a circular Sea but to look at it in three dimensions. We know that it had a rim, so it was somewhat narrower just under the rim.

Therefore, it could easily have measured 10.00 cubits from brim to brim, yet have been only 9.55 cubits wide at the waist, where “it took a line thirty cubits long to go round it” because 9.55 x pi = 30.00.
 

Regarding the capacity:
Compare 1 Kings 7:26 It would hold 2,000 bath measures

with 2 Chron 4:5 The reservoir could hold 3,000 bath measures.

It appears that the usual amount of water it held was close to 20,000 gallons, whereas it had a capacity of close to 30,000 gallons. No doubt it was able to hold such a large quantity of water because of its bulging sides, its forty-five-foot circumference referring only to its opening on top and not to its maximum circumference.

Please don’t ask me to explain it! I understood it at the time 🤣🤣

 

 

[Br. Ice]

15 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

Another thought:
It is also possible that the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively.

Consider a circular Sea but to look at it in three dimensions. We know that it had a rim, so it was somewhat narrower just under the rim.

Therefore, it could easily have measured 10.00 cubits from brim to brim, yet have been only 9.55 cubits wide at the waist, where “it took a line thirty cubits long to go round it” because 9.55 x pi = 30.00.

 

This is the one. It is simple and accurate explanation that any honest hearted individual could or would accept it.

[Hava Saber]

9 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

Please don’t ask me to explain it! I understood it at the time 🤣🤣

I read the Insights too, thanks, btw.

[Lewis]

1 Kings 7:23 states that it was circular in shape, most likely just an approximation.

[kejedo]

Good point. All ancient math books I have found and read mentioned that the circumference was about three times the diameter. This was used as early description of a theory (thought, not proved) vs a theorem (works every time.) I have enjoyed reading the oldest math manuscripts I could find since I started reading at three and started tutoring math at age seven. I was a math tutor/teacher for 63 years. Retired last year, I am 71. I enjoy when the maths of the Bible are discussed, but limit my comments in the meeting. My fave appendix of the Bible is B-14. I try not to initiate discussions of this info, b/c not every person is quite as fascinated with the measurements of the greatest mathematician, Jehovah God. Something for everyone. Jehovah's people are well educated and desire for more learning. SoCahToa to all my number-loving sisters and bros. pauline  p.s. Yup, I did not go on and about myriads.     

[hatcheckgirl]

Any time you want to discuss Bible maths, be our guest Pauline! 👍👍🌹🌹

[Pabo]

I always remembered at primary school that they were using the 22/7 method of calculating the circumference of the diameter.

 

However, I had known (I don't know how) that by using the 113355 method it gave you the closest amount to pi, than the above.

 

355

113  x diameter

 

Where 355/113 = 3.141592920

 

π = 3.141592653

 

Whereas 22/7 = 3.142857142 which is higher

[Pabo]

It is interesting when you look at Appendix B-14 in regards to the measuring units. I did a comparison to my actual arms and hands to see the variations between the standard and me and it came up with some interesting results.

 

 

Firstly, my Fingerbreadth and Handbreadth are larger that the "B-14 Standard" (if we want to call it that).

 

But my Hand Span and Cubit length is shorter that the B-14 Standard.

 

As the Cubit lengths are based on the number of Handbreadths, my ratio is slightly out, as my Handbreadth is bigger then my Hand Span and my Cubit, thus having lower ratio numbers. When I look at my hands, I have bigger palms, but my fingers are smaller (at times they act as thumbs).

 

So if I had used my Handbreadths as the standard point, then my Cubits and Hand Span would be larger than the B-14 Standard.  A the Long Cubit will be 59.5cm (23 1/2 inches), a Cubit 51 cm (20 inches) or nearly long as the B-14 Standard Long Cubit, and the Short Cubit would be 42.5cm (16 3/4 inches) or nearlyas long as a B-14 Standard Cubit.

 

Imagine the building if it was constructed with everyone using their own body measurements if they were all in varying sizes. Imagine having someone the size of Goliath building a small cottage for a short person, where the house would end up being the size of a mansion!

 

In case you are wondering why my left arm is nearly 2cm (3/4inch) shorter than my right, this was due to a sporting injury which required surgery where an elbow joint being inserted before I was in my teens. Thus the length of my left arm did not grow as long as my right when I was having my growth spurts. As it ended up only being only over a inch difference between the two arms, so I didn't elect to have surgery to correct the length of my arm. However, normally you will find that one part of your body will be larger or smaller that the corresponding side which is normal, but mine is slightly abnormal but nobody notices it.

[kejedo]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:13 PM, Pabo said:

I always remembered at primary school that they were using the 22/7 method of calculating the circumference of the diameter.

 

However, I had known (I don't know how) that by using the 113355 method it gave you the closest amount to pi, than the above.

 

355

113  x diameter

 

Where 355/113 = 3.141592920

 

π = 3.141592653

 

Whereas 22/7 = 3.142857142 which is higher

3.142 is larger

 

[kejedo]

2 minutes ago, kejedo said:

3.142 is larger

 

I agree with Pabo's statement

[Qapla]

Not that this explains geometric shapes, but it does have a bearing on measurements and how we view them. Measuring in approximations is still common today. 

 

Horses are measured in "hands,". The measurement is taken from the ground to the highest point of the withers, which is the ridge between the shoulder blades. While it is accepted that a hand equals four inches, obviously, not everyone has the same size hands. It is highly possible that a horse standing 15 hands high may be between 14 to 16 actual hands depending on the size of the hand of the person measuring. Determining a hand to be 4", regardless of the actual size of various people's actual hands, eliminates the confusion when referring to the height of a horse.

 

Also, when we measure a person, we measure from the ground to the top of the head - but, with a horse, the head is much higher than the withers. Since a person's head is at the top of a vertical body, we can use the top of the head for measuring. However, a horse's head is on a neck that allows the head to touch the ground or be held high in the air so using the head for measurements can't work. So, while a 15-hand horse is 5 feet tall, a horse with his head held erect can be look taller that a person standing 6 feet tall.

 

In another case, when people order chicken wings at a restaurant in the US, they are sold by the wing count. However, an actual chicken wing has three sections. When served, the wing is separated into the three sections. The tip is discarded, and the other two pieces are counted separately. So, if you order 20 wings, you are really only getting 10 wings minus the 10 tips.

Edited June 21 by Qapla

[Witness1970]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:13 PM, Pabo said:

I always remembered at primary school that they were using the 22/7 method of calculating the circumference of the diameter.

 

However, I had known (I don't know how) that by using the 113355 method it gave you the closest amount to pi, than the above.

 

355

113  x diameter

 

Where 355/113 = 3.141592920

 

π = 3.141592653

 

Whereas 22/7 = 3.142857142 which is higher

PI correct to 6 decimal places.  That is good enough for me.

 

[Pabo]

9 hours ago, Witness1970 said:

PI correct to 6 decimal places.  That is good enough for me.

 

 

Pie that is 6inches in diameter is good enough for me.

[kejedo]

1 minute ago, Pabo said:

 

Pie that is 6inches in diameter is good enough for me.

Hee Hee

[kejedo]

I picked up a piece of chicken in th grocery store and sked if the two extremitis were front or back legs. Clerk took piece to manager and person bhind me giggled. P>S I don;t eat chicken wings.

[kejedo]

2 minutes ago, kejedo said:

I picked up a piece of chicken in th grocery store and sked if the two extremitis were front or back legs. Clerk took piece to manager and person bhind me giggled. P>S I don;t eat chicken wings.

and idid not know brother qapla was a specialist on horses, too. the thoroughbred i co-owned was named brian b run. I might order chicken wings next opportunity.