Immigration enforcement and JW's

[Witness1970]

11 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Personal circumstance vary. The Branch refers to them as "undocumented" Is 'undocumented' and 'illegal' the same thing? Do we threat them the same way?

Since WWII the United States has had an "asylum" law. People can cross the border if their life is in danger.  They are "undocumented" until they request asylum.  Once they ask for asylum they are allowed to stay legally until their case can be adjudicated.  They have all the rights of citizens in the interim.  Once their case goes to court, they can stay permanently if their asylum request is approved, but they have to leave if not approved.  So, they would be undocumented until their asylum request is made.

[Witness1970]

There has been talk of "home-grown criminals" being deported.  If Jehovah's Witnesses is declared a "terrorist" organization, it could apply to them also.  The publications mentioned some 50+ years ago that having a constitution would not prevent a country from becoming a dictatorship.  All of the countries that have become dictatorships had a "constitution" (maybe with a different name) with the same flowery language, but they still became dictatorship.  It could happen anywhere.

 

EDIT: I will admit that I was somewhat skeptical when I first read that in the publication, but I realized that it was correct.

Edited April 16 by Witness1970

[bobby]

16 hours ago, Qapla said:

 

Which "one" of these is a crime?

 

Who is in the country illegally

That does not always drive within the speed limit

Who stops with their front tires on the white stop-bar at a traffic light
Who may cross the street without using the crosswalk
That we don't know if they were 100% accurate on their taxes
Who has an above ground pool in their back yard but didn't have a permit to assemble it

 

As far as I understand, they are all crimes - since they are all illegal.

 

j waking or as you said Who may cross the street without using the crosswalk is not a crime in calif 

[Doug]

In the news today is a story about a 49 year old Salvadorian man who has been here illegally for 30 years.

He has eight American-born children.  He was running a home-improvement business.

 

This man was pulled over for reasons not explained in the story. His troubles really started because his driver's license was suspended.  For the driving violation and/or the suspended license, he got a two-day sentence.  However, ICE was waiting outside the courthouse and detained him for his undocumented status.  He's in a detention facility in Mississippi awaiting deportation.

 

So, here's the thing  .   .   This man has stayed out of trouble for 30 years.  He has raised eight kids.  If anyone might catch a break and get a little sympathy, he would be a good candidate.

But, no.  The current policy toward the undocumented is zero tolerance.

 

This is an example of why I'm worried for our brothers and sisters.  Any little mistake that attracts law enforcement can become a life-changing crisis.  A burned-out brake light, rolling through a stop sign (California style) expired tags (even though you have the new ones on the table at home).  ANY probable cause for law enforcement to detain can escalate very fast and very badly. I was once pulled over for talking on the phone, but I wasn't. I was just scratching my ear. I told the cop he can look at my phone to see that there haven't been any calls for a good 20 minutes.

 

There are no undocumented brothers or sisters in my congregation of 42.  But I imagine those friends (wherever they are) must be a bit "uptight" over these recent changes. 

[trottigy]

One day ALL JWs will be illegal and undocumented - as they attempt to "cancel" us. As always - we will trust Jehovah will take good care of us (see Matthew 6).

 

I am going to keep working on that trust even now.

Edited April 18 by trottigy

[Esined]

On 4/15/2025 at 11:07 PM, LeolaRootStew said:

But if someone is flagrantly disobeying the law after choosing a wrong course, and they take no steps to remedy it, I would have a hard time working with them because 1) they committed a crime by entering the country illegally and 2) they compound it every day by doing nothing to fix it.

Hopefully it is reassuring to know that is NOT the case for most if not all of our brothers and sisters who are undocumented. 
 

 

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Esined said:

Hopefully it is reassuring to know that is NOT the case for most if not all of our brothers and sisters who are undocumented. 
 

 

 

It is. Thank you.

[minister159]

18 hours ago, Doug said:

In the news today is a story about a 49 year old Salvadorian man who has been here illegally for 30 years.

Does that mean that he didn't have a green card, which as I understand it, is necessary in order to become a naturalized citizen? I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, but I wonder if that's why more undocumented aliens don't apply to become naturalized citizens or automatically become naturalized citizens, after living in the U.S. for so many years.

[Doug]

5 hours ago, trottigy said:

One day ALL JWs will be illegal and undocumented - as they attempt to "cancel" us. As always - we will trust Jehovah will take good care of us (see Matthew 6).

I am going to keep working on that trust even now.

 

I guess you're talking about the time when JW's are the only religion after BtG is gone.  By then, our legal status will be the least of our concerns.  We will be targeted for our faith and neutrality, not our immigration status.

 

Meanwhile, brothers and sisters in Russia, Eritrea and other places are in jail for unjust and unreasonable reasons. It's religious persecution.

Some brothers and sisters in the US may find themselves in jail or on a flight out of country for reasons that are not religious persecution. Just Caesar enforcing laws that weren't written to target JW's. ( like the laws in Russia ).

 

This topic has led me to wonder, would I harbor a JW who was undocumented, to try to help them avoid deportation? ( I think that would be a crime itself ).  So, would I ?  Well, I certainly would during the GT.  But what about now?  Maybe.

I'm sure it would depend on the circumstances. I can't rule it out.

[LeolaRootStew]

4 hours ago, Doug said:

This topic has led me to wonder, would I harbor a JW who was undocumented, to try to help them avoid deportation? ( I think that would be a crime itself ).  So, would I ?  Well, I certainly would during the GT.  But what about now?  Maybe.

I'm sure it would depend on the circumstances. I can't rule it out.

 

I wouldn't. Nations have a right to defend their borders. 

[Jwanon]

On 4/18/2025 at 10:51 PM, Doug said:

would I harbor a JW who was undocumented, to try to help them avoid deportation? ( I think that would be a crime itself ). 

 

Paul told Onesimus to return to his master Philemon. He didn't harbor Onesimus to avoid him being under slavery again, despite Onesimus being a Christian

[Doug]

The topic is heating up as far as immigration enforcement is concerned.  The government is responding to the resistance of its enforcement with the national guard in Los Angeles.  This could become a long, ugly summer in the urban areas.

 

The border czar, Tom Homan, says the focus is on criminal aliens and that ICE is acting on warrants.  Still, the scene looks like some kind of coup d'etat in a third-world nation, with militarized police and burning cars.

 

I worry about our dear brothers and sisters who find themselves caught up in the immigration enforcement net.    

[franceml]

On 4/18/2025 at 10:51 PM, Doug said:

 

I guess you're talking about the time when JW's are the only religion after BtG is gone.  By then, our legal status will be the least of our concerns.  We will be targeted for our faith and neutrality, not our immigration status.

 

Meanwhile, brothers and sisters in Russia, Eritrea and other places are in jail for unjust and unreasonable reasons. It's religious persecution.

Some brothers and sisters in the US may find themselves in jail or on a flight out of country for reasons that are not religious persecution. Just Caesar enforcing laws that weren't written to target JW's. ( like the laws in Russia ).

 

This topic has led me to wonder, would I harbor a JW who was undocumented, to try to help them avoid deportation? ( I think that would be a crime itself ).  So, would I ?  Well, I certainly would during the GT.  But what about now?  Maybe.

I'm sure it would depend on the circumstances. I can't rule it out.

From your profile:

• My favorite quotes
  Mind how you treat people on your way up. You will meet them again on your way down.

[Esined]

What is alarming about what is happening now is that it seems there are people who have been deported and detained without due process. That is sort of like if a baptized publisher in a congregation was perceived as doing something wrong, and then immediately removed from the congregation without a committee of elders and the whole process that goes along with that.
 

Here in Massachusetts, a high school student who had been in this country since he was 6 years old, on a student visa that expired, was taken by ICE and then placed in detention in poor conditions with men much older than him. According to news reports, this kid had no criminal record. The government even wanted to transfer him to another state where it would have been more difficult for his family to contact him. He was released to his family on bond a couple of days ago. (https://www.wbur.org/news/2025/06/05/milford-high-student-in-ice-detention-ordered-released-by-immigration-judge)

 

Someone like this has done absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of Jehovah. Someone could have expired “papers” through no fault of their own and be complying with every rule and law to establish their legal status—I don’t know if that was the case with this kid, but it certainly is with lots of people. And while their case is pending it seems they can still be subject to detention and deportation in inhumane ways. In this crazy system, governments do things that violate their own laws. So let’s not assume our brothers and sisters in this boat are doing anything illegal.

[Doug]

8 minutes ago, Esined said:

So let’s not assume our brothers and sisters in this boat are doing anything illegal.

 

I don't think any of us would assume that.  I used the expression "immigration enforcement net".  In my mind, I was thinking of the parable of the dragnet, Mt 13:47-50. But the application would be in reverse.  The immigration enforcement net is intended to catch the bad but it may snare the good as well.

 

It's a complex dilemma and I feel bad for our brothers and sisters who find themselves in the middle of it.

 

 

[Frances Bennett]

I didn't see this topic when it first was posted. I have just read the whole thread through, and it has blown my mind!!!

 

It seems that 1 Thessalonians 4:11 has been quoted or alluded to by some people to tell others to 'mind there own business' over actual laws that are being broken.

 

Interestingly the people using the scripture in that way are people who I have been on threads with who very much did not "mind their own business" over a certain situation a few years back where the governing body heavily encouraged us to follow the guidance of the governments in our land to take a certain medical treatment...even though it was not a law, unlike what is being discussed here.

 

Everything about this is confusing to me.

 

I do believe we should mind our own business, and that these brothers and sisters who are in the US illegally should resolve the issue themselves, fully relying on Jehovah knowing that if they are obedient to the law of the land he will give them all that they need to be equal to whatever the consequences are for them.

 

Nobody in the congregation needs to get involved. Its up to them individually. Jehovah will definitely not let them down as they strive to do the right thing.

[Golfguy74]

On 4/10/2025 at 9:45 PM, Doug said:

The Immigration and Nationality Act dates back to 1952.  It was a tool for keeping track of people who were going to be in the country for more than 30 days.  Registration is mandatory for anyone 14 years of age or older without legal status.  Registrants are required to provide fingerprints and an address.  If they move they need to notify the government.  This even applies to Canadian "snowbirds" who vacation in Florida for the winter.  This law has rarely been enforced, but a judge Trevor Neil McFadden has ruled in favor of the administration enforcing the law.  

 

 It sounds a lot like the law requiring all male US citizens to register with the Selective Service within 30 days of their 18th birthday.  Our organization makes an announcement reminding our young brothers to be sure and do that.

 

The deadline to register is Friday, April 11, 2025.  Has the US branch given any direction on this?  Will our brothers and sisters who don't have legal status comply?  Mt. 22:21

The migrant should review scriptural references such as Titus 3:1, 1 Peter 2:13-17, along with Romans 13:1-7. Also, they should be encouraged to do research in publications. The Elders do not enforce governmental laws. However, in harmony with the mention scriptures, such an individual cannot be appointed as an Elder, Ministerial servant, regular pioneer, Auxiliary pioneer, Watchtower reader, etc. If they are exemplary in all other areas, they could carry a microphone.

 

Sadly, I have seen brother move to the USA illegally and cannot be appointed as an elder. What is really sad is some friends continue to view them as elders even though they do no live in harmony with scriptural principles and found in Romans 13.

[Doug]

2 hours ago, Frances Bennett said:

 

It seems that 1 Thessalonians 4:11 has been quoted or alluded to by some people to tell others to 'mind there own business' over actual laws that are being broken.

Interestingly the people using the scripture in that way are people who I have been on threads with who very much did not "mind their own business" over a certain situation a few years back where the governing body heavily encouraged us to follow the guidance of the governments in our land to take a certain medical treatment...even though it was not a law, unlike what is being discussed here.

 

 

The contrast between the two topics is rather remarkable.  Good comment, thank you.

[Julsey]

On 6/8/2025 at 9:31 AM, Esined said:

What is alarming about what is happening now is that it seems there are people who have been deported and detained without due process. That is sort of like if a baptized publisher in a congregation was perceived as doing something wrong, and then immediately removed from the congregation without a committee of elders and the whole process that goes along with that.
 

Here in Massachusetts, a high school student who had been in this country since he was 6 years old, on a student visa that expired, was taken by ICE and then placed in detention in poor conditions with men much older than him. According to news reports, this kid had no criminal record. The government even wanted to transfer him to another state where it would have been more difficult for his family to contact him. He was released to his family on bond a couple of days ago. (https://www.wbur.org/news/2025/06/05/milford-high-student-in-ice-detention-ordered-released-by-immigration-judge)

 

Someone like this has done absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of Jehovah. Someone could have expired “papers” through no fault of their own and be complying with every rule and law to establish their legal status—I don’t know if that was the case with this kid, but it certainly is with lots of people. And while their case is pending it seems they can still be subject to detention and deportation in inhumane ways. In this crazy system, governments do things that violate their own laws. So let’s not assume our brothers and sisters in this boat are doing anything illegal.

People who are here illegally have been getting deported for forever from this country and others in accordance with the law. Despite what the MSM would have us believe, illegal immigrants do not have the same rights as a citizen. Even in Paul’s day, the rights of a Roman citizen varied from those of non-Romans. &nbsp
 

I have lived in 3 countries not my own. If I overstayed my visa or entered illegally and was found by the authorities, I would have been put on the next plane home. Immediately. No trial or hearing. In the US, the State Department can determine whether a non-citizen stays or goes, even if they are here on a non-expired visa. When my maternal grandmother came through Ellis Island, the immigration officers could put you on a ship back to your place of origin, merely for having a certain kind of eye infection. 

 

Just as children of those not serving Jehovah have been and one day will be judged based on the actions of their parents, so children who were brought here illegally are subject to deportation, regardless of how they have lived their lives. If you want to be upset with someone, be upset with the parent who put their child in such situation. It is the parent who caused the problem, and as with so many other things in life (drug use, immoral lifestyles, whatever), the children end up paying a price. Who is crying for all the children who lose parents daily when said parents are taken to prison for crimes they committed?

 

Please understand that not everything you hear on the evening news is based in reality. There isn’t a single new organization that I can think of, including the local ones, that *don’t* look like propaganda machines. 
 

People who are here legally - green card holders - have to keep everything up to date. They have to keep their documents on them at all times, because they know that until they get their citizenship papers, they are, essentially, guests. They pay enormous sums of money and jump through hoops made of red tape, *because they want to do things legally.* It is patently wrong to turn a blind eye to criminal behavior and then expect the legal immigrant to do everything by the book. Or should there two standards of justice?

 

Finally, nothing in this system is going to work perfectly, and sometimes even things happen in the congregation that aren’t fair. Eventually, Jehovah and Jesus sort everything out. 

 

[Hope]

Due process and habeas corpus are written into the Constitution. Those rights apply to every *person* here on US soil not only citizens. According to law.

 

An article with good explanations of the detail:  https://clearwaterlawgrouptricities.com/5-rights-of-undocumented-immigrants/

[Cool.As.Ice]

Jules does have a point.

[Witness1970]

On 4/12/2025 at 9:32 PM, BLEmom said:

Do you always obey the speed limits exactly or do you sometimes have to go with the flow of traffic that drives a lot faster?

Just one example of how circumstances dictate actions….

When I first got baptized back in 1972, I always drove the speed limit.  If a car behind me wanted to go faster, he/she could pass.

 

There have been times since then that I have gotten over the speed limit for whatever reason.  On one occasion I was driving a new car.  It was large Pontiac and was a very smooth ride.  I got on a straight highway with no traffic, called the beeline highway in Alabama.  I was driving along oblivious to me speed until my wife told me to look at the speedometer. I was going 85 MPH in a 55 MPH zone.  I was shocked.

 

It is possible to obey speed limit laws but don't do it in the left lane of a freeway in Atlanta.  The law there says that if you are in the left lane driving the speed limit you can be stopped and given a ticket.  Driving the speed limit in the left lane of a freeway in Atlanta can cause road rage for drivers behind you.  That law has been in effect for decades now.

 

I am getting off topic, but my point is that it is possible to obey speed limits (and other laws) in most cases.

[Korotkiy]

To got to America any Ukrainian immigrant need to pay about phantistic for Ukraine 1K dollars, hovewer when to got to Poland or Germany they payed nothing and additionally has got aid from EU.  

[Allabord4Jah]

Could someone ask the F&Discreet about this matter on illegal brothers and sister's?  Paul sent Onesimus back to Philemon. Though he became a beloved brother to Paul, Paul followed the law and so that no reproach on Jehovah and fellow believer Philemon. The social order in the Roman Empire obliged Paul to send, Onesimus back even though he was endeared to Paul.  (Philemon 12)

[trottigy]

But Paul also baptized Onesimus and he actively helped Paul in his ministry. And we don't know how long Onesimus helped Paul.

 

We don't have to call the branch, we already know how they feel. 

 

This Watchtower spells it all out well -

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=1977211&par=2

 

Edited June 15 by trottigy