Aliens

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

That's how I understand your point of view. Is that correct? What am I missing? 

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Yes. Emphasis on the word "prove".

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Yes, otherwise it would just be belief.

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Nope

 

So looks like I understood 2 out of 3 parts. What did I misunderstand? 

 

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

It was their test of obedience. But passing an obedience test is not the same as proving Jehovah's rule is best. Their obedience doesn't touch that.

 

So, at what point could Adam and Eve's continued loyalty be sufficient to provide an answer to Satan's challenge?   Unless proven, how can Jehovah make a reply to the one taunting him?

 

(Job 2:4) 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life.
 

 

While stated in Job, this is the crux of the entire account at Genesis chapter 3.  Jehovah's creation is inherently flawed.  People, even perfect people, only serve Jehovah as long as the good times roll. Take away their paradise and they will curse God.

 

(Proverbs 27:11) 11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me.
 

The only way Jehovah could make a reply was if humanity rebelled.   Otherwise, how could Jehovah make a reply without proof?

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Shawnster

[LeolaRootStew]

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

So looks like I understood 2 out of 3 parts. What did I misunderstand? 

 

...The rest?

-you saying all ethnicities/species need to sin to prove Satan a liar

-you saying Adam and Eve's sin was inevitable by conflating an inability to prove Satan wrong with a requirement that they sin

-you saying that proving Satan is wrong about humans means it doesn't apply to everyone

 

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

So, at what point could Adam and Eve's continued loyalty be sufficient to provide an answer to Satan's challenge? 

 

Imagine Jehovah made a lavish meal for Adam and Eve and Satan claimed he could make an even better one. They say no and he never makes it. How long do Adam and Eve have to say no before it proves Satan can't cook? Never. You can't prove someone can't cook if you never let them cook. Their loyalty has nothing to do with Satan's ability to rule. That's a category error.  

 

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Unless proven, how can Jehovah make a reply to the one taunting him?

 

What would Satan even taunt Jehovah with: "Hey, I think I can do better, but no one wants to follow me"?

 

2 hours ago, Shawnster said:

how could Jehovah make a reply without proof?

 

That's above my pay-grade. 

[Tortuga]

26 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

What would Satan even taunt Jehovah with: "Hey, I think I can do better, but no one wants to follow me"

I think where our opinions differ is that you think Satan needed an opportunity to prove he was right. The difference is that he didn't claim to be right, he claimed Jehovah was wrong. Big difference. Jehovah gave him an opportunity to prove his point.

Edited 13 hours ago by Tortuga

[Lesley]

Hmm.  This is a thought provoking subject.  Remembering that Satan is a liar, when he said to Eve that she definitely would not die if she ate the fruit; he didn't say that because he believed that she would not die; he was telling a lie.  But he was trying to seize power.  Most humans have let him.  This weeks watchtower Maintain the Right view of Adversity paragraph 3 made a good point:" If Jehovah were to fix all problems now, it could seem as if he was helping Satan run the world."

 

Jehovah has gone to great lengths to provide a way of saving Adam and Eve's imperfect descendants, by providing the ransom.  Jehovah knows what is true and he doesn't have to prove it for himself.  He is kindly showing us that he is consistent and tells the truth.  We can have confidence in Jehovah.  1 Corinthians 4 verse 9 says that we have become a theatrical spectacle to the World and to angels and to men.  We can pray to Jehovah to help us to be loyal to him.  We can all see that Jehovah's way is best, and the opportunity is still open for others to see as well.

[Shawnster]

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

you saying... 

 

No.  I was not saying.  I was asking if that was what you saying. I was seeking clarification. 

 

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

you saying that proving Satan is wrong about humans means it doesn't apply to everyone

 

Well, the topic was about extra terrestrials. And that's the ultimate point as to whether what the Bible describes applies to everyone, including these ETs, or if it only applies to humans. Some in this topic have stated the Bible, since it is only concerned with the human condition, cannot be used to disprove intelligent life on other planets. 

 

So, yes. Working with your analogy in relation to the topic, we must treat each group of humanity as distinct and separate groups instead of all coming from the same origin because, since this topic is about alien life, by definition those aliens would be separate and distinct from humans. 

 

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

That's above my pay-grade. 

 

 

That's the ultimate point of this discussion, whether such hypothetical aliens could or could not be used as witnesses to make a reply to Satan's challenge.  

 

I will respect your conclusion the answer is out of your reach. 

[LeolaRootStew]

9 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I think where our opinions differ is that you think Satan needed an opportunity to prove he was right. The difference is that he didn't claim to be right, he claimed Jehovah was wrong. Big difference. Jehovah gave him an opportunity to prove his point.

 

...So I agree with Jehovah? 

 

Satan didn't say God's rulership was bad, just that it could be better (he was withholding something from them). The implication being that Satan could do better. The only way to prove that is to try. Makes sense to me.

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

Well, the topic was about extra terrestrials. And that's the ultimate point as to whether what the Bible describes applies to everyone, including these ETs, or if it only applies to humans. Some in this topic have stated the Bible, since it is only concerned with the human condition, cannot be used to disprove intelligent life on other planets. 

 

So, yes. Working with your analogy in relation to the topic, we must treat each group of humanity as distinct and separate groups instead of all coming from the same origin because, since this topic is about alien life, by definition those aliens would be separate and distinct from humans. 

 

It applies to everyone, not because everyone is the same, but because the same God who said humans can't rule themselves was just proven right through thousands of years of testing. So when Jehovah says the same thing about all his other creations, we know we can take him at his word - it doesn't need to be proven again.

 

As I stated previously, I don't think what is happening here proves one way or another whether there is life on other planets.

[Tortuga]

1 minute ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

...So I agree with Jehovah? 

 

Satan didn't say God's rulership was bad, just that it could be better (he was withholding something from them). The implication being that Satan could do better. The only way to prove that is to try. Makes sense to me.

I think we are saying the same thing and not saying the same thing. You seem to be suggesting that if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, that mankind would continue to be tested until Jehovah allowed Satan an opportunity to rule the world and fail. I disagree. You are using your logic to support the idea that another intelligent physical creation with freewill could exist and their tests of loyalty wouldn't prevent humans on earth being tested, so the events on earth don't rule out the possibility of intelligent physical creation with freewill on other planets. I disagree.

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Take care...

 

 

[LeolaRootStew]

1 minute ago, Tortuga said:

You seem to be suggesting that if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, that mankind would continue to be tested until Jehovah allowed Satan an opportunity to rule the world and fail.

 

No. I'm saying that I have no idea what he would do in that circumstance because I'm not sure what Satan did would be a death sentence if there were no fallout from it. Would he be banished? I don't know. Executed? I don't know. I understand he has earned a death sentence in real life because his actions killed Adam and Eve, but if they had said no there would be no casualties - so what would the punishment have been? I don't know.

 

3 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

You are using your logic to support the idea that another intelligent physical creation with freewill could exist and their tests of loyalty wouldn't prevent humans on earth being tested, so the events on earth don't rule out the possibility of intelligent physical creation with freewill on other planets. I disagree.

 

 

Agree. Their theoretical test of loyalty doesn't affect our planet (if they passed it). I still don't believe there is other life out there, but I can't use our current circumstances as proof of anything.

 

If another planet had:

 

Failed the test: the issue of sovereignty would have been adjudicated already and Adam and Eve would have been informed of this. No need for an earthly court case. 

 

Passed the test: Satan may or may not be executed or banished. We don't know. He may have been allowed to travel the universe and tempt Adam and Eve because choosing Jehovah's rulership does not prove Satan can't do it better (in the eyes of all creation).

 

So, if there is another planet full of people out there, they would have to be faithful or they sinned after Adam and Eve did. Why? Because the issue of sovereignty is being played out here, not there. Jesus died here, not there. So it's possible they exist, but our current circumstances do not prove it one way or another.

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

may or may not be executed or banished. We don't know. 

 

We absolutely do know. The Bible is pretty clear. 

 

(Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages sin pays is death. 

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=45006023&srcid=share

 

(James 1:15) sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=59001015&srcid=share

 

Sin results in death.  Everyone that sins is subject to death. Challenging Jehovah's sovereignty is a sin.  For challenging Jehovah, Satan will die. He must die. 

 

Likewise, we know that Jehovah would never allow Satan to go and seduce a separate alien species as if Satan had free reign to corrupt the entire universe while he awaits execution.  Jehovah's word is clear. If you know your bull is in the habit of hurting people and you don't restrain it, then you are responsible. After the first act of rebellion, Jehovah's justice forces him to restrain Satan so he does not hurt anyone innocent.