Vatican in trouble with UN again

[Robroy]

Seems like this issue won't go away for the Vatican.

I was wondering why the pope made the announcement to the world last week apologizing for the child abuse it has been covering up. My wife and I were discussing it and we thought that maybe the Vatican is in more trouble and is trying to atone publicly for its sins in a rash attempt to make it look like they are doing something about it and that they actually care about children...and by extension, people.

Seems like they are being dragged before the UN on May 5,6 but this time, according to the article, not before the, 'obscure Human Rights committee' (on the rights of the child), but before the committee behind the UN convention against torture which the Vatican ratified in 2002. Seems like all these ratifications are coming behind them and biting them in the butt, so to speak. This committee is taken far more seriously and I believe has more teeth to bite those who don't adhere to its code.

Here is the link, just made public a few hours ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/story/grill-vatican-clergy-sex-abuse-23321032?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F

[chuck83]

Boy when they fall off of the back of the Wild Beast it's going to be violent and bloody. I don't know if there will be any survivors in the Vatican.

[Toy Poodles]

It says " The UN committee issued a scathing report, accusing Vatican Officials of Systematically placing their own interests over those of victims. The Vatican condemned the findings as a reflection of "prejudiced" positions of Anti-Catholic advocacy Groups. 

 

The Center for Constitutional Rights, a nonprofit legal group based in New York, submitted reports on behalf of victims to both committees urging closer UN scrutiny of the church record on child abuse. For the upcoming hearing before the UN Committee Against Torture, the Center for Constitutional Rights argued the rape of children by clergy amounted to torture and inhuman treatment, and the Vatican has not done enough to stop the abuse. 

 

The Vatican has no right to call the people that have been victims as being "prejudiced" against Catholics, here these were Catholics and maybe some still are. What a slap in the face to the ones that have been abused and trying to get their voice heard and trying to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else or anyone else's child. But all the Vatican can do is call them a "prejudice group". What hypocrisy the Vatican shows itself to be. 

[UpstateKate]

Very interesting! I think we'll all be eagerly watching to see if this is what triggers the Great Tribulation. 

[palmhat]

Very interesting! I think we'll all be eagerly watching to see if this is what triggers the Great Tribulation. 

There's a lot of stuff happening! Oh, if only....

[Allabord4Jah]

Boy when they fall off of the back of the Wild Beast it's going to be violent and bloody. I don't know if there will be any survivors in the Vatican.

I doubt if the dogs will lick its blood like another wicked "Queen" who was tossed out the window of her palace full of malice!

[palmhat]

I doubt if the dogs will lick its blood like another wicked "Queen" who was tossed out the window of her palace full of malice!

The birds!

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[rbrown1205]

Remember that the Catholic Church is not in and of itself Babylon the Great.  A whole lot of religious organizations would just love to teach that, and they do.  But Jehovah's people do not.

 

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989211?q=Ancient+Babylonian+religious+concepts+and+practices+are+found+in+religions+worldwide&p=par

 

Not being critical, just careful...

[Mykyl]

Remember that the Catholic Church is not in and of itself Babylon the Great.  A whole lot of religious organizations would just love to teach that, and they do.  But Jehovah's people do not.

 

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989211?q=Ancient+Babylonian+religious+concepts+and+practices+are+found+in+religions+worldwide&p=par

 

Not being critical, just careful...

Taken from a study article last year. Christendom will be first. Who are the largest and main part of Christendom? Now it wont stop there but that is the start, as Christendom is viewed as "a holy place".

 

"The United Nations is “the disgusting thing,” and Christendom is viewed as “a holy place” by its followers. The United Nations will attack Christendom and the rest of Babylon the Great, as also foretold at Revelation 17:16-18. This attack on Babylon the Great will be the beginning of the great tribulation." (BOLD MINE)

 

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402013530

Edited April 17, 2014 by Mykyl

[Robroy]

Remember that the Catholic Church is not in and of itself Babylon the Great.  A whole lot of religious organizations would just love to teach that, and they do.  But Jehovah's people do not.

 

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989211?q=Ancient+Babylonian+religious+concepts+and+practices+are+found+in+religions+worldwide&p=par

 

Not being critical, just careful...

Yes, sorry, should have clarified that from the beginning. All false religion make up BTG, but Christendom is most reprehensible to Jehovah, especially the one with the biggest numbers because they claim to follow God and his son and look what they've done in Jesus and his name. As our literature has stated, a holy place represents that which is most holy to Christendom (money and power) and the disgusting thing represents the UN. So what is happening lately to the Vatican and it's holy place and seeing the disgusting thing getting in her face is of interest to us because when we see the fulfillment of this scripture, it surely means that the cry of peace and security is not far behind and when that happens, then Christendom and the rest of BTG goes down.

But you are correct Roberta, the Vatican and her organization isn't the only part that makes up BTG.

[Robroy]

Today the Vatican responded to the UN allegation by saying that it is only responsible for the people within the confines of the city state.  It didn't work when they tried to use that excuse in January when they were before the other committee and I doubt it will work with this committee.

 

In part, the article quotes, "In an indication that it will seek to limit its responsibility, the Vatican said it signed the torture treaty in 2002 "exclusively in the name of and on behalf of" the 44-hectare (110-acre) Vatican City State, where fewer than 1,000 people live. The Vatican said it will "undertake its obligations on behalf of that state."

 

What a weak and lame argument.  That would be like a service business, branding itself on honesty and integrity, saying it is not responsible for the repeated, thieving actions of it's employees while they are in their clients homes.  The honesty and integrity they advertise about only applies to their employees actions while they are within the walls of the building they work out of.

 

Let's see how that would stand up in a court of law:

 

Judge: Did you know that your employees were thieves when you hired them?

 

Defendant: Nope!

 

Judge:  Did you do a background check on them before you hired them?

 

Defendant: Uhh, nope, took 'em at their word.

 

Judge:  What action did you take when you discovered you had thieves working for you?

 

Defendant: Generally nothing, didn't think it was necessary.  But if the heat got too hot, then I transferred them to another division.

 

Judge: So why do you think that you are not accountable for your employees actions when you knew you had thieves working for you?

 

Defendant: Because we aren't.  That's why!

 

Could this be the disgusting thing standing in a holy place?  Guess time will tell, no use speculating.  Bu if it is, then how does the rest of Christendom, the protestant side of her go down when the Vatican/RCC goes down?  How will the UN tie the rest of BTG in to the whole world scene?  Will be interesting to see how everything unfolds when Jehovah puts it into their heart to carry out his thought.  Oh if only we could see behind the curtain of the world stage to see how everything is being set up.

 

Here is the link to the article:  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/vatican-responds-round-abuse-inquiry-23329830

[niall]

The "disgusting thing" in in the day of the early Christians was the Roman army (from what I remember) and a "holy place" was Jerusalem or its temple. So I think the "disgusting thing" today is the UN. They are supposed to be serving in a peace keeping role, just as the Roman army was. The "holy place" would be the Vatican since they are the most prominent religious city in our day (a city that falsly claims to represent Christianity).

The Jews were a thorn in Rome's side, as is the Vatican/Catholic Church today.

Nero raided all temples (including the Jewish temples) around the fall of Jerusalem. Likewise, the UN must also be eyeing the piles of cash that religions are sitting on.

Edited April 19, 2014 by niall

[Allabord4Jah]

Am so disgusted by all of Babylon the Great!  How many here are too?  Let's hear it for Jehovah to put it into the minds of the world leaders to knock her off that glided jewel saddle on the back of the beast! Yippe Ye, Yippe Yo!

[trottigy]

The "disgusting thing" in in the day of the early Christians was the Roman army (from what I remember) and a "holy place" was Jerusalem or its temple. So I think the "disgusting thing" today is the UN. They are supposed to be serving in a peace keeping role, just as the Roman army was. The "holy place" would be the Vatican since they are the most prominent religious city in our day (a city that falsly claims to represent Christianity).The Jews were a thorn in Rome's side, as is the Vatican/Catholic Church today. Nero raided all temples (including the Jewish temples) around the fall of Jerusalem. Likewise, the UN must also be eyeing the piles of cash that religions are sitting on.

Rather than guess what it means, we can always go to our literature - especially since we covered this recently:

In the first fulfillment, the “standing in a holy place” occurred in 66 C.E. when the Roman army (“the disgusting thing”) attacked Jerusalem and its temple (a place holy in the eyes of the Jews). In the larger fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be the beginning of the great tribulation.

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013530?q=disgusting+thing&p=par

Edited April 19, 2014 by trottigy

[niall]

Rather than guess what it means, we can always go to our literature - especially since we covered this recently:

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013530?q=disgusting+thing&p=par

So I was pretty close!

I wasn't "guessing," I was indicating that I was writing from memory (something that is fallible). Plus, I replied while waiting for an optometrist appointment and didn't have time to check our literature. Which is why I said "from what I remember."

Edited April 19, 2014 by niall

[trottigy]

You did good. Much better than my memory. I hope the appointment went well.

[MizPeg]

The "disgusting thing" in in the day of the early Christians was the Roman army (from what I remember) and a "holy place" was Jerusalem or its temple. So I think the "disgusting thing" today is the UN. They are supposed to be serving in a peace keeping role, just as the Roman army was. The "holy place" would be the Vatican since they are the most prominent religious city in our day (a city that falsly claims to represent Christianity). The Jews were a thorn in Rome's side, as is the Vatican/Catholic Church today. Nero raided all temples (including the Jewish temples) around the fall of Jerusalem. Likewise, the UN must also be eyeing the piles of cash that religions are sitting on.

"Piles of cash". I have oftened wondered about the wealth these religions have spent so much energy acquiring. Money being the root of all evil, we  know who holds the key to the safe. 

[palmhat]

"Piles of cash". I have oftened wondered about the wealth these religions have spent so much energy acquiring. Money being the root of all evil, we know who holds the key to the safe.

Yes, the love of money is quite evil. Our #3 talk in the Ministry school two weeks ago was about Abner. The theme being "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword". It fascinates me that BtG has so much blood guilt due to her money lust. Watching as these words bear down on her is a privilege.

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[Joey]

What took place between UN and Vatican today,May 5,2014

GENEVA (AP) — In its second grilling at the United Nations this year, the Vatican on Monday sought to limit its responsibility for the global priest sex abuse scandal by undercutting arguments it has violated an international treaty against torture and inhuman treatment.

The Vatican delegation's appearance in Geneva is the first time that the committee that oversees the U.N. Convention Against Torture, which the Vatican ratified in 2002, has hauled the Holy See before its members.

Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Vatican's U.N. ambassador in Geneva, lost no time asserting that its responsibility for enforcing the U.N. treaty against torture only applies within the confines of the tiny Vatican City, which has fewer than 1,000 inhabitants in an area less than half a square-kilometer in size, making it the smallest country in the world.

"The Holy See intends to focus exclusively on Vatican City state," he told the committee. "State authorities are obligated to protect and when necessary to prosecute persons under their jurisdiction."

Committee member Felice Gaer's first question was to ask why the Vatican's first report to the committee — the subject of the hearing this week — came nine years late. Gaer, an American human rights expert, then took aim at the church's "alleged distinction" in its treaty responsibilities between Vatican City and the Holy See.

The differentiation, she said, "would create important gaps in the coverage" of the treaty and is a "troubling" bit of legalese.

"We call for all parties to adhere to the strict meaning of the convention," Gaer told the Vatican delegation led by Tomasi.

The grilling ended after just two hours Monday to allow the Vatican delegation to prepare responses when the hearing resumes Tuesday afternoon. Tomasi acknowledged there remain differences over "the line of legal and moral responsibility" for implementing the treaty.

He said there has been a "stabilization, even a decline in case of pedophilia" in the church, which indicates that the measures taken by the Holy See and local churches are "bringing about a positive result."

"The church has to do its own cleaning of the house. It has been doing it for the last 10 years," he said.

A U.N. committee that monitors a key treaty on children's rights blasted the Holy See in January, accusing it of systematically placing its own interests over those of victims by enabling priests to rape and molest tens of thousands of children through its own policies and code of silence. And that committee rejected a similar argument the Vatican made trying to limit its responsibility.

If a U.N. committee finds the abuse amounts to torture and inhuman treatment, that could open the floodgates to abuse lawsuits dating back decades because there are no statute of limitations on torture cases, said Katherine Gallagher, a human rights attorney for the Center for Constitutional Rights, a nonprofit legal group based in New York. The group submitted reports on behalf of victims to both committees urging closer U.N. scrutiny of the church record on child abuse.

Gallagher said that rape legally can constitute a form of torture because of the elements of intimidation, coercion, and exploitation of power, and that it is a "disingenuous argument" for the Vatican to assert its only responsibility for the anti-torture treaty lies within Vatican City.

When they signed the treaty, Vatican officials said they were only doing so on behalf of Vatican City not the Holy See, which is the governing structure of the universal church. The Vatican's spokesman, Rev. Federico Lombardi, told Vatican Radio on Friday the church hopes the U.N. committee reviewing the anti-torture treaty will avoid being "reduced to tools of ideological pressure rather than a necessary stimulus towards the desired progress in promoting respect for human rights."

But the stakes couldn't be higher, said Barbara Blaine, president of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, known as SNAP. She said hundreds of children are still being abused today despite the Vatican's recent "lofty words" that don't amount to preventive action.

SNAP last year separately asked the International Criminal Court to investigate former Pope Benedict XVI and Vatican cardinals for possible crimes against humanity over clergy abuse. The court, based in The Hague, rejected the request.

"So much is at stake —the safety of children all across the globe," she told reporters Friday at the U.N. in Geneva. "We don't know what will stop the Vatican officials. All we can do is to keep speaking out."

Pope Francis has said he takes personal responsibility for the "evil" of clergy sex abuse, and he has sought forgiveness from victims and said the church must be even bolder in efforts to protect children. On Saturday, members of the Pope's sexual abuse advisory board said they will develop "clear and effective" protocols to hold bishops and other church authorities accountable if they fail to report suspected abuse or protect children from pedophile priests.

Francis announced the creation of the commission last December and named its members in March after coming under initial criticism for having ignored the sex abuse issue.

The U.N. committee, which is composed of independent experts, not other U.N. member states, will issue its final observations and recommendations May 23.

___

Associated Press writer Nicole Winfield in Rome contributed to this report.

[seasonedWithsalt]

I'm so excited about this development, this could effectively be the beginning of the attack of Babylon the great.

not to mention the United Nations also said that the Catholic churches stance on abortion causes mental anguish to women and girls that can be considered as torture, this along with the many accounts of sexual abuse by priests could bankrupt the Vatican in months, when the lawsuits start up.

[Greg Dent]

No way. That church sits on stock piles of gold. The catholic church in the U.S. sits on millions and millions of dollars Possibly billions. THe church in the U.S. alone could pay off the countries deficit 3X over. THink of all the gold that is in the church ornaments. The real estate the churches sit on. Most of the time prime real estate. How many of those could be liquidated for over 5 mill a piece. Say in new york or Boston.