12 Dead in Paris Terror Attack

[well]

The good news is there is an encouraging experience about Muslims in our 2015 yearbook from Indonesia! Hi! I'm from Indonesia!   A country who has the largest population of Muslims... I am surrounded by them all my life... 

[BibleSteve]

2Tim 3:13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse misleading and being misled.

[LindaViktoria]

Linda, did you say baklava? I have changed my mind, you are invited to come by whenever you like!

I thought you would change your mind! LOL

But serious, I understand that people get afraid.

The times we live in are crazy. We just need to stay focused on the truth and share the good news with everyone.

Maybe some people will listen to us when we are out in service because they think that this attack in France was so scary.

Maybe some muslims as well, as they will feel the climate in the western countries get tougher against them.

In Sweden there have been a couple of threats and attacks against mosques both before and after the terrorattack.

[ChocoBro]

Maybe some people will listen to us when we are out in service because they think that this attack in France was so scary.

Maybe some muslims as well, as they will feel the climate in the western countries get tougher against them.

 

 

The big hinderance I see is the common view that apostasy or defecting from your islamic roots is a very severe thing among the muslim culture. I knew a brother originally from Iran who was supporting the translation work and when trying to get in touch with them, the branch office told us "they are not listed here". He himself asked us not to disclose that he lived at the branch office (doesn't anymore) to anybody for fear of his life, since he was born a muslim.

 

 

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Sahih-Al-Bukhari

 

I've always wondered how Jehovah will enable the preaching work for muslims, because even those living in Europe cannot truly freely hear the word and grasp it. It is understandable that they fear for their lives.

 

But I think that once this gets rolling, and more and more muslims in the West start caring less about muslims becoming ex-muslims, the less people will have to fear speaking to Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[sunshine]

i've just skimmed throught this thread and since I live in Paris, France and 90% of our territory is Muslim, forgive me for sayingn this but I feel I must say please PLEASE brothers and sister do not allow yourselves to be manipulated by the Media which is in turn being maniupulated by Satan's governments which is in turn being manipulated by SATAN. 

 

Babylon will be destroyed because it is all evil. Jehovah will see to that in the meantime we must remain politically neurtal and keep our love for the people, many of whom if given the opportunity will turn to Jah.  This morning in the Field Ministry meeting the brother mentioned how we must be careful what we say.  We hate all false religioin because it is a tool of Satan but we do not hate the people in those religions.  It saddens me to hear a comment like "I don't want a Muslim living next door to me" because this is exactly the sentiment that this system is trying to produce in the masses. This is not to say that Islam doesn't have a base upon which extremism cannot be made but that is that case for ALL false religion.  That Islam has become so politicized and inestrically linked with Middle Easten politics is no different from the Troubles of Northern Ireland between the Catholics and Protestants which was really a POLITICAL issue of independence from the United Kingdom.  What I'm saying is that politics uses religion to further it's aims so we as Jehovah's Witnesses must be aware that any implication that, for example Muslims are "bad" people (prone to extremism) and Buddists are "good" people that wouldn't hurt a fly ... is by implication going to be perceived as a political statement.  

 

We're talking amongst ourselves here but it is MORE important, not less important to see where we should stand as the world sinks into extreme thinking, fear, and the governments continue to "divide and conquer"  This is not "political correctness" speaking, this is one of Jehovah's Witnesses speaking.  When this system goes down we will see to what point we were being lied to, manipulated, how much public hatred was fabricated, how many horrific events orchestrated and when the cry of "peace and security" goes out (something I'm personally convince will only happend when people have been so saturated by fear and horror and the finger pointed to a "simple" solution that they are willing to swallow without anaylysis); so it's not good asking "are the authorities doing enough about the problem" who ARE "the authoritiess"? are they not the governments? Who therefore is the chief of the world governements?  Is it not Satan? So what are we asking "Why isn't Satan doing something to ensure that his system is less violent because of the individuals he (Satan) has trained to go our and be... violent?" The "authorities" exist because Jehovah allows them because they serve a purpose, sure, but we must be realistic about what those "authorities" can do given their own vile motives and the character of their Leader Satan.  We have no chance of not being swept along by public feeling if we don't stand apart from the public feeling that is all around us now.

 

Jews were villanized before they were put in camps,I'm sure the US soldiers saw many a charicature of  "crazy gun carrying vietnames" running out of the jungle to kill them, and what was the cold war all about before the wall fell and East Germans started buying Armani like everyone else? And while the governements publically say the war on Terror is not a war on Islam, It is turning into one (who knows if that was the original intention) and Jehovah's people must be no part of this craziness.  Because we shouldn't kid ouselves, the hatred that now is being directed at extremist Muslims will one day be spun around, multiplied by 1000 and directed at US.  Don't ask me how Fox News, CNN and every internet blogger with access to a keyboard are going to spin it, but spin it they will.

 

Our focus must be on the kingdom and helping people and let me tell you, the brothers are well aware of the potential in the arabic field, most of which is Muslim.  The people are seeing the reality behind their religion and the sheep are COMING OUT.  Of course we feel sorry for innocent victims of senseless violence, of course we are angered by the horrors of this sytems, of course we know Babylon's hands are full of blood, of course we know Satan uses all three parts of his system (religious, political and commercial) often playing one against each other to whip up the desired feelings (read: reactions) but we must not be swept up in any anti-islamic (people) hysteria.

 

Sorry for the lecture, it's just we are being cautioned about all this by the brothers, and we are in the thick of it all here in Paris at the moment. Anyway, as my brother said earlier...

 

"The Kingdom is in place - Let it come!!!"

Edited January 10, 2015 by sunshine

[ava]

Sister Rosie,

 

Please be safe!!!  I saw on the news a little while ago that terrorist sleeper cells in France have been activated in the last 24 hours.  I have no idea how accurate that news report is as you know how the media is.

 

To all our brothers/sisters in France and other European Countries, be alert and vigilant.  You are all in our prayers.

[sunshine]

Thank you Ava.  One of the terrorists lived practically in the same street as one of our pioneer sisters and the branch saiid that we should follow the directives from our local elders closely.  Still apart from being told to stay alert and while our partners are for example reading a scripture their partner should stay alert as to what is going on around them, we are not in a war zone.  Things probably look a lot worse through the media.  It's in fact a sad but wonderful opportunity because people are ready and happy to talk about the state of the world and this leads to many positive experiences.  

 

Don't worry about us, the angels are camping all around...

[LindaViktoria]

Well written sister Rosie.

[Trina]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is wrong with saying you don't want a dangerously violent person living next door to you...it's like not wanting a pedophile to live next door when you have children, it would make you have to be constantly on high alert in your own home. I just don't think, in my personal opinion, to tell you are frightened about this is something that should be bad. He did not say he didn't love them as people but that the radical behavior made him feel that way...we know that 1 Cor. Speaks of bad association spoiling useful habits, same in adult groups of association just as children. The problem is the same for emotions as with making laws, how do you know the difference between the peaceful people and those who are radical, and thus lies the problem and may be how the gov.'s will have to view religious groups in general as well and turn on them all...just thinking out loud and I would be friendly to anyone to give them a witness for Jehovah, fear or not!

[Stavro]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is wrong with saying you don't want a dangerously violent person living next door to you...

 

That's making the assumption that all who follow Islam (or as more commonly believed, all of Arabic descent) are always "dangerously violent".

 

Yes, Muslims make up a larger number of terrorists than most other religions, but that number is still miniscule compared to the global Muslim population. Based on percentages alone, it would be more accurate to say "I don't want drug-dealing thieves living next to me" in reference to an African American family. Or "I don't want a house full of illegal immigrants living next to me" in reference to a Hispanic family.

 

None of these stereotypes portray any more than a tiny percentage of the associated group, so we should try to see the individuals for who they really are, not bowing to the mass-media-backed racism (which is closely linked to national pride) that perpetuates most of the world today.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Stavro

[Trina]

There is no one nationality that is radical it comes from every nationality, never once was a race factor considered. We need to be careful not to assume that others have underlying thoughts as well. Pedophiles are more than likely, according to statistics to be male gender but I don't mean that any male neighbor would worry me. I think that you just made the point more clearly that if you thought someone was possibly practicing something, violent or illegal you would not want them next to you either. It is so sad but even the apostles would not enter in a city knowing they were violent towards God's message and turned and went to another city to keep from danger...it is what society teaches our children when it comes to bully's or gangs to try to avoid a situation if possible. it is sad that some have to make it hard on the rest of those that are peaceful.

[Stavro]

It is so sad but even the apostles would not enter in a city knowing they were violent towards God's message and turned and went to another city to keep from danger.

 

If an individual city was known to be violent, they would not enter on the basis of that city.

 

If a handful of Samaritans committed an act of violence once, the Apostles wouldn't avoid every Samaritan city they encounter based on "Samaritans were once violent so every Samaritan everywhere is always violent".

[Trina]

True, if they changed from their violent ways they would not avoid them.

[Stavro]

True, if they changed from their violent ways they would not avoid them.

 

And the vast majority of Muslims have never been violent in the first place, just as the vast majority of Hispanics have never been illegal immigrants and the vast majority of African Americans have never been criminals.

[Trina]

Wise way of putting things brother! I love how being one of Jehovah's big worldwide family keeps us all going forward in a positive way! Soon these worries and fears will be behind us thanks to his great love for each and every one of us! Let your kingdom come☺️

[New World Explorer]

And the vast majority of Muslims have never been violent in the first place, just as the vast majority of Hispanics have never been illegal immigrants and the vast majority of African Americans have never been criminals.

Stavro I really view you as a very insightful person (Really!)   but for the first time I have to disagree with your line of reasoning.

By introducing "vast majority" statement we introduce mathematical probability ... So let's say a Muslim person moved in next door to where you live then how can you determine wheter he is part of "vast majority" or extreme radical "minority" ? We just don't know ! but "fear" can develop within us due to the fact that we simply don't know what kind of person he/she is.( and I think Carlos had this in mind ..fear of "uknown")

All these terrorist lived somewhere ..  they were somone's neighbour .... some even perhaps appeard friendly (at least for a period of time) to their neighbours ... but at the end they proved to be dangerous... 

Thus "vast" against "minority" reasoning does not eleminate fear and this is my main point. Of course we are nice and respectful to all and we do not descriminate others but "fear" can effect our brain :

Effect on thinking

Once the fear pathways are ramped up, the brain short-circuits more rational processing paths and reacts immediately to signals from the amygdala. When in this overactive state, the brain perceives events as negative and remembers them that way.

 

In view of this: When we see a person who is radical in his ways and acts that way (killing others ) and is associated with Islam ..and then another..and another ... then another .. followed yet by another... ......  at the end how our brain will process this information ?

Could rational processing paths be effected ?  Could rational reasoning that "vast majority" are not like that be somehow blurred...  I will conclude saying that I love preaching to all sorts of people .. I love people and ministry ...  but I am also aware of Jesus words: Look! I am sending you out as sheep among wolves; so prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. Be on your guard against men... "  Matt 10:16.

 

(If there is a flow with my resoning I am open to correction   my main point is that "vast majority" reasoning does not eleminate fear. )

And yes I would have a Muslim as my neighbour ...  ! Would I be good neighbour to a Muslim family ? .. definitely ! would I preach to them ?  Yes ! would there be a degree of caution ? Yes of course ....  (just for your personal information I have been invited for dinners to Muslim homes and had wonderful time and conversations with them )

 

 

 

 

[Stavro]

Could rational processing paths be effected ?  Could rational reasoning that "vast majority" are not like that be somehow blurred...  I will conclude saying that I love preaching to all sorts of people .. I love people and ministry ...  but I am also aware of Jesus words: Look! I am sending you out as sheep among wolves; so prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. Be on your guard against men... "  Matt 10:16.

 

"Be on your guard against men."

 

Jesus didn't specify any particular background, he warned caution against ALL.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about ones who may or may not follow extremist religious beliefs (every major religion and group has extremists who resort to violence to promote their cause), I'm saying that we shouldn't be so deathly terrified of the peaceful Muslim family across the street that we end up ignoring the bat-eating Satan worshippers next door.

[New World Explorer]

"Be on your guard against men."

 

Jesus didn't specify any particular background, he warned caution against ALL.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about ones who may or may not follow extremist religious beliefs (every major religion and group has extremists who resort to violence to promote their cause), I'm saying that we shouldn't be so deathly terrified of the peaceful Muslim family across the street that we end up ignoring the bat-eating Satan worshippers next door.

I agree...  !

[hatcheckgirl]

As an aside: In my unit complex, I have muslims (about 4 young brothers, I think) who live on one side of me - and pretty much keep to themselves.  On the other side I have a bikie, who has a foul mouth but is very generous to me.  I would feel quite intimidated by them (as I am without a male in the house to protect me), but I don't.  On one level, it is because of the training we get at the meetings not to be prejudiced and to be peaceable with all men.  But on another level, they have never given me reason for fear - yes they are rowdy, and can have quite questionable language, but not violence.

 

However, it is still relatively safe here in Perth.  We are far away from what is happening at the coalface in other countries.  If I lived in a part of Europe, for example, with a heightened terror alert and very recent terrorist killings in random places, such as has been happening for some time there, then I too would have my guard right up.  I know we live in a satanic world, and that Jehovah is protecting us through his guidance but fear does make people act differently - Ecc 7:7 "But oppression can drive the wise one into madness".

So please take care brothers and sisters, as we all need to do.  Whatever happens in these last days will affect us, but not our eternal life as we know.  We keep praying for us all to "keep our senses", and be careful and vigilant.  Jehovah will always be our safeguard.

[ChocoBro]

This topic is very complex, and I hope that I am not coming across as a muslim-hating person.

 

First off, I fully agree with Rosie

 

i've just skimmed throught this thread and since I live in Paris, France and 90% of our territory is Muslim, forgive me for sayingn this but I feel I must say please PLEASE brothers and sister do not allow yourselves to be manipulated by the Media which is in turn being maniupulated by Satan's governments which is in turn being manipulated by SATAN. 

 

I don't believe the official narrative on 9/11 at all. Still, I am careful about conspiracy theories relating to what happened in Paris. A lot of garbage is going around, like that the video of the policeman's execution is a hoax. Still, the media should be taken with a pinch of salt. It is manipulative and there is an agenda behind what is being propagated!

 

Next, I'd like to adress the "minority" argument. What is a minority? 10%? 1%?? Because even one percent of 3 million people makes out 30.000 violent people. The amount of radical muslims differs from country to country. Some statistics say that 10% globally are potentially radical. What you need to understand is that a lot of muslims are in touch with extremism and come to their mosques being taught things they disagree with in their heart, but dare not open their mouth. Some are forced to partake in radical or violent deeds out of fear, not conviction.

 

Yes, Christendom has a violent past, too. But guess what the difference is?

 

Christendom is violent DESPITE Jesus teachings and example.

Islam is violent BECAUSE of Mohammeds teachings and example. (If you don't believe me, please feel free to waste your own time studying the Sunnah!!)

 

In my field service I am 100% free of prejudice towards people. My pioneer partners are often shocked at how fearlessly and in what a kind and open way I approach obvious muslims and offer them the bible tract and direct them to the website. I have a deep respect for muslims. I just hate islam with a passion.

 

And I can understand Carlos statement from earlier completely, questionable as it may be. Recently, my family went inquiring at the local town hall about the possibilities of taking up refugees in my widow mom's house to get in some rent (she has a really bad pension but owns an empty house). My mom wanted to know if we can have only Christian Syrian families and make sure we don't get single muslim men. Simply because muslim men have a general tendency to disrespect towards white, non-muslim women. I do not care whether 70% or 90% are willing to adapt to Western standards. The 10-30% that come into here house are enough cause for worry to disregard the fact that they are a "minority"

 

This is not comparable to prejudices towards black people becoming drug dealers. Afro-americans do not go to a different type of school where the teachers teach them to become gang-bangers and dope-slingers. Hispanics to not go to a college in Mexico City where they are taught ways of crossing the border illegally and survival skills for camping outside the city limits. I'm sorry, but what is taught at islamic mosques DOES manipulate these peoples frame of thinking.
 

Bad tree, bad fruit (deeds, not people). This has nothing to do with race, but with ideology.

[Stavro]

This is not comparable to prejudices towards black people becoming drug dealers. Afro-americans do not go to a different type of school where the teachers teach them to become gang-bangers and dope-slingers. Hispanics to not go to a college in Mexico City where they are taught ways of crossing the border illegally and survival skills for camping outside the city limits. I'm sorry, but what is taught at islamic mosques DOES manipulate these peoples frame of thinking.

 

African American "entertainers" often promote a culture of violence, glorifying even the most heinous crimes.

In conservative American areas, "christian" churches often promote things like "send those Muslims and Mexicans back to hell", and even hand out "Muslim/Mexican hunting permits". A Baptist church up the road from my house even holds an annual army recruiting drive with a sermon called "go kill some towelheads", and I've heard reports of a few churches sending groups to patrol the Mexican border, with orders to "shoot on sight".

 

While Islam is the most open about their extremist teachings, it's irresponsible to think that they are the only group promoting violence.

[Shawnster]

African American "entertainers" often promote a culture of violence, glorifying even the most heinous crimes.

In conservative American areas, "christian" churches often promote things like "send those Muslims and Mexicans back to hell", and even hand out "Muslim/Mexican hunting permits". A Baptist church up the road from my house even holds an annual army recruiting drive with a sermon called "go kill some towelheads", and I've heard reports of a few churches sending groups to patrol the Mexican border, with orders to "shoot on sight".

 

While Islam is the most open about their extremist teachings, it's irresponsible to think that they are the only group promoting violence.

 

Oh my word.  I just googled those phrases to see for myself.  These sound just as hate-filled as the Islamic State.  I'm almost speechless.  This begs the question as to why we aren't seeing radical "Christians" going on murderous rampages in the name of Jesus.  Maybe they will.  Like I said above, I don't recall radical Islam being so murderous before the mid 80s.  Perhaps it's only a matter of time.  

 

If that is the case, and we have to deal with radical "Christians" and radical Islamists killing each other, then a unified effort from the UN to bring about peace and security by ending the terror, and maintaining that peace and security by eliminating religion is a conceivable idea, isn't it?

[RaymondG]

I have a feeling that they have awakened a real enemy in the French...

This is a country where collateral damage is less of an issue in other places, they have a history of putting the safety of their own individuals second if the greater good is to be served.

And, of course, those responsible for this atrocity have now been killed.

[carlos]

That's making the assumption that all who follow Islam (or as more commonly believed, all of Arabic descent) are always "dangerously violent".

 

Yes, Muslims make up a larger number of terrorists than most other religions, but that number is still miniscule compared to the global Muslim population. Based on percentages alone, it would be more accurate to say "I don't want drug-dealing thieves living next to me" in reference to an African American family. Or "I don't want a house full of illegal immigrants living next to me" in reference to a Hispanic family.

 

None of these stereotypes portray any more than a tiny percentage of the associated group, so we should try to see the individuals for who they really are, not bowing to the mass-media-backed racism (which is closely linked to national pride) that perpetuates most of the world today.

 

Stavro, I was very reluctant to make additional comments in this thread because anything I can add, valid as I see it, will hardly be upbuilding and encouraging. But with this comment you are creating a straw man and inadvertently presenting my previous remarks as racist, which I am not at all.

 

We are not talking about race, but ideology. Racial features don't have any influence in the way a person thinks and acts. But religious beliefs do, and strongly so. If you say you don't like to have as neighbours some members of the Davidian cult from Waco, you are not being racist. It's simply normal not to want to be around people with weird and violent ideas.

 

I never equated Muslims with terrorists. I am not afraid that my neighbors may be terrorists, although some Islamic terrorists have been arrested just a few streets from my home. You mention the mass-media-promoted stereotype of extremist Muslims. But at the same time many have bought the opposite message that is being broadcast by most European mass-media right now: that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance and that extremists are just a small number. That is a huge lie. Islam is a religion of hate and intolerance, and it's fighting right now a war against the Western world. Can you mention some Islamic country where there are no armed conflicts, human rights are respected and our work is not under ban?

 

Two or three years ago you rarely saw Muslim women in my town wearing a veil. Now most of them do, and I am even beginning to see some burkas when I go to Madrid, although they are expressely forbidden by law. This is just an example of the huge community pressure suffered by moderate Muslim families to adopt more radical ideology. The same as you had racial riots recently there in America, riots can break out here at any time. When that happens, I prefer to be as far as possible from violent individuals. Not that I have any possibility to choose my neighbors, anyway.

 

On a more positive note, this month's Watchtower features a beautiful lifestory of a former Muslim woman who learnt the Truth and became our sister. That experience shows once again that people of all backgrounds can accept the good news, so we must share the message without prejudices with everyone.

[Stavro]

We are not talking about race, but ideology. Racial features don't have any influence in the way a person thinks and acts. But religious beliefs do, and strongly so. If you say you don't like to have as neighbours some members of the Davidian cult from Waco, you are not being racist. It's simply normal not to want to be around people with weird and violent ideas.

 

I agree completely. And my point isn't to imply that Islamic extremism isn't a threat, my point is that extremists in other religions and ideologies are just as common, even if they are less publicised.