Ceasefire deal reached for Ukraine

[Modeste]

What is Russia's agenda, then?

Geo-strategic and Economic. Russia doesn't want NATO forces on its boarders. It also wants to retain its economic ties and interests in Ukraine. 

[Modeste]

I think we all understand and agree the "Pro-Russian" rebels are actually Ukrainian.  That's the basic definition of a civil war - internal warfare between members of the same nation.  

?

Since the media is spinning things, where do you get your information?  What is a reliable source for the true facts?

From a variety of on-line sources which are not blogs or conspiracy websites. Primarily what is now dubbed as the Alternative Media which i compare with the MSM. 

[Shawnster]

 

If you want to discuss which of Satan's demonic princes holds the final responsibility for these deaths, which demon-run propaganda organization is promoting worse falsehoods, which minion of Satan is the rightful leader of Ukraine, or anything else related to politics, remember who it is you're really defending.

 

Be careful and play nice.  Stating that a board member is defending Satan is a bit much.  

 

Geo-strategic and Economic. Russia doesn't want NATO forces on its boarders. It also wants to retain its economic ties and interests in Ukraine. 

 

This is rather vague and can be applied to all parties.  Geo-strategic and economic.  Ukraine wanted to join NATO (or was it the EU?  I can't remember).  Their agenda could be stated as geo-strategic and economic.  

 

From a variety of on-line sources which are not blogs or conspiracy websites. Primarily what is now dubbed as the Alternative Media which i compare with the MSM. 

 

Are these secret websites that you're not allowed to post here?  You make a lot of statements that so far are unsupported.  

 

While I called Stavros out about possibly crossing a line, I've got to say we all  need to be careful about discussing this situation.  1.  We wish to remain neutral.  2.  As you said, Modeste, we don't know the whole story  3.  We have a least one member who actually lives in the Ukraine, so we need to keep her in mind when discussing this, as well as in our prayers.

 

All we have is the news media to relay us the information.  When we start picking one media source as "more reliable" than another, we start inching ever closer to that line between neutral and taking a side.  

[Stavro]

The available evidence does make the attack in my opinion look like a false flag.

 

Evidence produced by the US and its allies makes it appear as though Russian-backed sources fired a ground-to-air missile.

 

Evidence produced by Russia makes it appear as though a Ukrainian fighter jet fired an air-to-air missile.

 

Investigators in the US and its allies claim Russia has produced zero credible evidence.

 

Investigators in Russia claim that the US and its allies have produced zero credible evidence.

 

Some media sources side with the US and their allies, others side with Russia. But in the end, none of these media organizations are independent investigators with international authority, they are merely repeating what they have been told by their preferred government.

[Modeste]

This is rather vague and can be applied to all parties.  Geo-strategic and economic.  Ukraine wanted to join NATO (or was it the EU?  I can't remember).  Their agenda could be stated as geo-strategic and economic.  

 

 

Its not Shawnster. Crimea has been area of geo-strategic politco-military interest for Russia for hundreds of years and prior to the Crimean War (because of the Crimean Peninsula) when the British and Russian Empires clashed.

 

As I've already explained Russia has billions invested in Ukraine's economy, that allow for free trade and the movement of labour across Ukrainian/Russian boarders. Matter of fact Russia continues to subsidise Ukraine with Russian gas even though Ukraine has been in arrears for months. Russia's obviously not going to idly stand by and watch its economic interests trampled by the new kids on the block the Troika, who have just given Ukraine an (IMF) $18Bn loan based on the conditions of this latest cease fire. Which means Poroshenko's hand was essentially forced so he can keep the lights on in his country which likely means as was the case with the previous cease fires this one won't last. 

 

And Ukraine seems to have expressed interest in joining both the EU and NATO. Ukraine though does not boast the level of Geo-Strategic and Economic control that Russia and the EU/USA have. 

 

Are these secret websites that you're not allowed to post here?  You make a lot of statements that so far are unsupported.  

 

 

Of course not. I didn't know you wanted me to name/mention specific websites. Most of them are financial from Arabian Money to ZeroHedge or MarketOracle. 

 

All we have is the news media to relay us the information.  When we start picking one media source as "more reliable" than another, we start inching ever closer to that line between neutral and taking a side.  

 

I thought i already explained this..... I'm entirely sure why its being implied that i seem to have some partiality in this discussion, presumably to Russia. As I've already emphasized i do not. I'm not taking sides. I'm more than aware that the pushing and shoving between these two Kingdoms is the work of Satans Earthly Organisation. We know this and i don't think i need to explain that to fellow brothers/sisters here. But there is obviously nothing wrong with having a healthy discussion on the matter or on issues that affect mankind, humanity or our fellow brothers and sisters. Like the Awake i like to 'Watch the World'. 

[Stavro]

Be careful and play nice.  Stating that a board member is defending Satan is a bit much.  

 

I apologize, I was just trying to emphasize the reason we must closely guard our Christian neutrality, though I know I could have done it in a more tactful manner.

[trottigy]

I found this site very interesting about the downing of the plane MH17 - https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/27/is-this-the-launch-site-of-the-missile-that-shot-down-flight-mh17/

 

It paints a very compelling picture AND the comments at the bottom along with responses are very telling.

 

It is sad that almost 300 people are dead and after months - their families have no "official" answers. 

 

It is too bad the the Dutch have been allowed such limited access to the area where the plane went down. I remember seeing live footing of how the "separatist" prevented much of this investigation.   

 

We clearly need God's Kingdom SOON!!! 

[hatcheckgirl]

And as for the media, we in the west have only the same homogenised view of reporting.  It is interesting to read the alternative news, but there is no guarantee that any and all news will not have a certain bias.  I agree with Shawn's (Modeste) explanation of the past relationship between Ukraine and Russia needing to be taken into the equation.  Russia is losing a lot without the "food bowl" - Ukraine - as a trade partner, albeit a technically bankrupt one.  So it is quite reasonable that the Russian side of the story is being adversely skewed by the West for it's own agenda (as usual, nothing new here).

 

So we observe these news reports with some scrutiny and accept what we hear with a pinch of salt.  It's always a comfort to me personally that in viewing these complicated world political positionings from the safety of the neutral stance we carry, that Jehovah has this all in hand and will chew them up and spit them out, so to speak, soon.  Praying for our dear sisters and brothers in the firing line, literally, that they can carry out their work both personal and spiritual, in some safety. 

[hatcheckgirl]

 

Thus by and large what is happening in Ukraine isn't about Ukraine retaining its sovereignty nor is it about the protecting the lives of Ukrainians. As Ukraine's future will be determined by Brussels. But rather this dispute is actually a battle of Economic Geo-strategic and political control by Western banking cartels who are more than happy to saddle Ukraine and mire its economy in debt (just like Greece) that it cannot repay as the country is simply insolvent, and what's left of the productive portions of the economy have been ruined by War. 

 

Psalms 2:1, 2, 4: "Why are the nations agitated And the peoples muttering an empty thing?  The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one... The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah will scoff at them."

The power behind this system is economic, with the western banking cartels pulling the strings of the nations puppet leaders.  We know who is the real ruler of this world, for now.  But we have the comforting hope of seeing the solution for all this trouble, knowing that soon it will end at Armageddon.  Jehovah will have the last laugh.

[Stavro]

Most of them are financial from Arabian Money to ZeroHedge or MarketOracle.

 

Those media outlets are editorial in nature, not investigative, and their conclusions are not based on anything more than the same public statements and investigative reporting that all of us can access.

 

I'm not defending the MSM here, they are just as bad at falsely reporting opinions as fact, but none of these sources are anywhere near definitive, let alone able to withstand the test of factual accuracy necessary in a politically neutral discussion.

 

I thought i already explained this..... I'm entirely sure why its being implied that i seem to have some partiality in this discussion, presumably to Russia.

The 'false flag' and 'the west offered no evidence' talking points stem from Russia Today, a Russian government-funded news network that frequently produces provably false propaganda to whitewash the Russian government and vilify "the west".

 

As noted earlier in the thread, evidence has been provided by both sides of the international debate over MH17, and as of yet no authoritative independent investigation has publicly stated which side fired the shot. So declaring 'false flag' and 'no evidence' as facts, rather than opinions, could appear to some to be a bias toward the version of events originally written by the Russian government, especially when made in tandem with other comments that appear to outright defend the highly questionable and in no way verifiable "democratic" vote. (The international election observers were turned away at the Crimean border, and were shot at when they attempted to enter the area a third time.)

[Shawnster]

And as for the media, we in the west have only the same homogenised view of reporting.  It is interesting to read the alternative news, but there is no guarantee that any and all news will not have a certain bias.  I agree with Shawn's (Modeste) explanation of the past relationship between Ukraine and Russia needing to be taken into the equation.  Russia is losing a lot without the "food bowl" - Ukraine - as a trade partner, albeit a technically bankrupt one.  So it is quite reasonable that the Russian side of the story is being adversely skewed by the West for it's own agenda (as usual, nothing new here).

 

Russia has also always wanted/needed a warm water port and the Black Sea is the only place where that can happen.  By having right of access to Crimean and Ukraine ports, Russia gains or maintains a lot more seaports for their Atlantic fleets.  They will never be able to have year round access to the Pacific with the way the ports freeze in the winter.

[Modeste]

Those media outlets are editorial in nature, not investigative, and their conclusions are not based on anything more than the same public statements and investigative reporting that all of us can access.

 

I'm not defending the MSM here, they are just as bad at falsely reporting opinions as fact, but none of these sources are anywhere near definitive, let alone able to withstand the test of factual accuracy necessary in a politically neutral discussion.

 

 

We seem to be going around in circles here. Whether they're investigative, editorial etc is academic. The point is as iv already explained you can only build an informative view from the available sources you have access to. I only mentioned those sites because Shawnster asked for some of my sources under the presumption they were a secret. I frequent many other sources and how i formulate my opinion much like most people do is based on the sources i have access to. You can only then formulate an objective and possibly subjective opinion based on said sources. I don't think its necessary to pedantically a belabour a point about political neutrality when i've already explained myself.

We clearly have different views on the matter. There's nothing wrong with that. But to dismiss every source and replace that with only skepticism isn't helpful for those that have an interest in the situation as do i.

 

The 'false flag' and 'the west offered no evidence' talking points stem from Russia Today, a Russian government-funded news network that frequently produces provably false propaganda to whitewash the Russian government and vilify "the west".

 

As noted earlier in the thread, evidence has been provided by both sides of the international debate over MH17, and as of yet no authoritative independent investigation has publicly stated which side fired the shot. So declaring 'false flag' and 'no evidence' as facts, rather than opinions, could appear to some to be a bias toward the version of events originally written by the Russian government, especially when made in tandem with other comments that appear to outright defend the highly questionable and in no way verifiable "democratic" vote. (The international election observers were turned away at the Crimean border, and were shot at when they attempted to enter the area a third time.)

 

Again we can be drawn into discussion on pedantic detail which wasn't the intention of my post nor of the 'false flag' issue that you have taken exception too. In hindsight i would have prefaced that with the word alleged but i type quickly as thoughts come to me and certainly wasn't expecting to be taken to task on what in my opinion could be construed as minutae. 

 

I can present many definitive counters to the opinions/facts you've mentioned above that paint an entirely different story to what you claim. But that wouldn't lead to productive discussion of which we'd only be discussing different sides of the same coin. Fundamentally we don't even disagree. So ill leave it there. 

[seagull]

Whatever the details are in this conflict I have always erred on the side of caution about the potential for this to escalate significantly.

 

Of course anything can happen but essentially Putin has backed himself into a corner.  He hates to lose face and his posturing has been as much to maintain his own interests within Russia as it is to promulgate conflict in Ukraine.  Yet he knows he does not really need or want long term economic, let alone, military conflict with the West.  He was hoping for a quick and easy civil conflict that would continue give him a friendly face to work with on strategic aims.  It didn't happen and now he needs to back down but that does not come naturally to the man.

 

I regularly spend time in Russia and whatever the rhetoric around nationalist causes, even with Russians volunteering themselves to fight in Ukraine, even with the idea of not backing down to the imperialist West firmly engrained in the political psyche, the fact remains that people in Russia do no want to go backwards.  They do not want further enforced economic isolation let alone military conflict.

 

Russian resources are massive.  It can be a self-sufficient land yet over the past 20 years has been further and further entwined with the global economy.  That is one boat that no one really wants rocked too long and too hard.

[Trina]

No one knows anything "for sure" unless they saw these things with their own eyes. Jehovah is the one that knows for sure. Our position is to care about the people that are caught in the middle of all of this trouble no matter who caused it or who keeps it going. That is the only thing we know is that we love our brothers and sisters on both sides and don't care who did what in the process. I can see how the situation has progressed and continues to carry on because it seems to be a very emotionally charged fight between the nations. I am so glad our ruler Jehovah God protects us from having to take one side or the other. My prayers are with the brothers and sisters who are struggling with Satans rulership right now on every side without prejudice.

[Stavro]

But to dismiss every source and replace that with only skepticism isn't helpful for those that have an interest in the situation as do i.

 

When a media outlet has been repeatedly proven to intentionally print falsehoods, and is written by convicted criminals under a thin cloak of anonymity, it's probably best to take their words with a grain of salt rather than repeat them as gospel.

 

I can present many definitive counters to the opinions/facts you've mentioned above that paint an entirely different story to what you claim.

 

And what story is it that I'm claiming?

 

A plane crashed as a result of a military action, and all on board are believed to have been killed.

 

Beyond that, evidence has been put forward supporting many stories. There is purported evidence that Russia shot the missile, that Ukraine shot the missile, that there was no missile and it was brought down by a bomb, that the bodies were dead before the plane took off and it was controlled remotely, that some on board knew about the crash ahead of time and were prepared, and that some of the victims survived and are now in hiding.

 

Since no authoritative independent investigators have given any comment on which evidence is true and which is misinterpreted or false, these stories are only stories, nothing more. Some might be politically motivated, and some might be based on actual evidence, but there's no politically neutral way for us to sort out the real from the fake, so the course of wisdom is to stick to the proven facts, and leave the placing of blame for the investigators.

[trottigy]

 

 

A plane crashed as a result of a military action, and all on board are believed to have been killed.

 

Beyond that, evidence has been put forward supporting many stories. There is purported evidence that Russia shot the missile, that Ukraine shot the missile, that there was no missile and it was brought down by a bomb, that the bodies were dead before the plane took off and it was controlled remotely, that some on board knew about the crash ahead of time and were prepared, and that some of the victims survived and are now in hiding.

 

 

You missed one - that the "separatists" received a Buk M1 missile from Russia and THEY shot the plane down thinking it was a military aircraft flying over "their" territory.  - https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/27/is-this-the-launch-site-of-the-missile-that-shot-down-flight-mh17/

 

This is also POSSIBLE   

Edited February 13, 2015 by trottigy

[New World Explorer]

Catrina's post #40 is the image of how I view the conflict in Ukraine right now..  Satan is crafty .. cunning ..and most wicked creature and what he is doing to the earth must be paining Jehovah very much ..  all these pointless fights for land .. selfish power etc.. etc..  really reflects his character..

 

We are no part of the world and mere observers of political conflicts ...  So glad that Jehovah took us out of this system ... 

[crazylee]

Besides, there is only one conclusion here.

 

It is that they are ALL LIARS! The nations, the Media, the armies, everything on both sides too.

 

It is not wise to take anything as truth here, since these people all follow their leader Satan.

 

Why does Satan cause these people fight among themselves?

Because he wants total control of everyone and this can be accomplished by messing things up.

 

The effects are world wide and we can see that easily.

 

The only way we can cope is to faithfully follow Jehovah God. Go to every meeting, and go out in service to find those who are deserving.

 

Our faith in Jehovah and Jesus is the only way. Trying to figure out what Satan is doing is fruitless, Satan's ways are too convoluted.

Edited February 14, 2015 by crazylee

[Mykyl]

Remember the talk on the Saturday of last summers convention. In particular the demo that was done during this talk. "As KingdomSubjects, Remain“NoPartof This World”!(John 18:36"

It wasn't talking about being actively involved in the politics. The demo showed the brother thinking to himself how party a was right and party b was wrong. He was not discussing the matter with anyone else. The right way was to concentrate on the only solution being Gods Kingdom.

It was quite pointed in stating that otherwise we could be giving a pinch of incense to Satan.

Think about those involved and let the world argue and worry over the nonsense details.

[trottigy]

Things aren't going to go well for Jehovah's people in these areas where "freedom fighters" or "separatists" are.

http://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/ukraine/donetsk-luhansk-religious-buildings-seized/

This doesn't sound like fighters for freedom.

[navco]

As the days go by more and more that this world is really nothing but a bunch of bio solids glad We have a hope for the real life and not this present evil.this in time will more than likely be happening worldwide.I know Jehovah is supporting these brothers and sisters.

[Trina]

And the article about our brothers and sisters and how they are coping is what I am most interested in when it comes to fighting around the world. I want to know about the situations and how our faithful spiritual family are standing strong. They are wonderful examples of how we continue in the face of any situation, even the very difficult trying times. Prayers are being said for their continued safety and strength in Jehovahs protection. I can't wait until we have no borders and Jehovahs laws will be in all the land. Let your kingdom come soon Jehovah!

[New World Explorer]

Things aren't going to go well for Jehovah's people in these areas where "freedom fighters" or "separatists" are.

http://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/ukraine/donetsk-luhansk-religious-buildings-seized/

This doesn't sound like fighters for freedom.

This news makes it clear that as you have described they are not "freedom" fighters because their actions show truly who they are.

It's interesting to note that the rest of Ukraine does not have restrictions in place regarding our brothers ...

We can see true colours of these "freedom" fighters .. Hope Jehovah steps in quick because Satan's world is going crazy ..

[campanula]

We had a special talk in our region regarding neutrality something like one year ago, and I would like to share one quotation of Brother's Stephen Lett talk word by word.

 

This is what he said:

"If someone asks you: "What is your opinion about conflict in Ukraine?" We answer: "We have no opinion." ...

[campanula]

But I must admit that I found the word Balkanaized to be very correct for that, what happens now in Ukraine.

Phililogically speaking only ...