Ceasefire deal reached for Ukraine

[Trina]

Seems for the moment they have decided on a ceasefire and more. There is another meeting coming up in Munich according to this report. I hope it works!

[Allabord4Jah]

I hope so. The neighborhoods there have been pounded day and night by both sides, and am concerned about our brothers.

Edited February 11, 2015 by allabord4jah

[Greg Dent]

Seams someone is reporting wrong. They destroyed a whole area of the one city last night in hours of artillery shelling. So some how I think someone didn't hold up their end of the deal. I will let you guess who that was.

[campanula]

Seems for the moment they have decided on a ceasefire and more. 

And then ....Mr. Obama  sends "lethal defensive weapons"  (   )  to the government in Kiev and then...voilà... (guess what?)

[campanula]

 I will let you guess who that was.

Even experts can't do that... both sides have the same ammunition and veappons ...

[trottigy]

Even experts can't do that... both sides have the same ammunition and veappons ...

 

Not so. There is a distinct difference from a Russian rocket and a Ukraine one. Experts would be able to tell the difference - especially with satellite imagery - with that it wouldn't be hard to tell the direction it is going to. That and of course - the rebels won't bomb there OWN areas - and the Ukrainian army isn't going to bomb its area. So, just look at what was bombed and wont could easily tell who did the bombing.

[rocket]

Not so. There is a distinct difference from a Russian rocket and a Ukraine one. Experts would be able to tell the difference - especially with satellite imagery - with that it wouldn't be hard to tell the direction it is going to. That and of course - the rebels won't bomb there OWN areas - and the Ukrainian army isn't going to bomb its area. So, just look at what was bombed and wont could easily tell who did the bombing.

 

True story except for the occasional accidental blowing up of ones own cache of bombs and rockets. (ammunition dump)

[Greg Dent]

Ya its not like that never happens lol

[trottigy]

 

Rockets crashed into Kramatorsk, some 50 km (30 miles) north of the front, hitting the main headquarters of the Ukrainian military campaign in the east, as well as nearby residential areas. Local officials said at least seven civilians were killed, while 26 civilians and 10 soldiers were wounded. A parliamentary deputy said four soldiers were also killed.

 

A Reuters photographer saw the body of a woman who had been killed, laid out in light snow where she fell. The tail of a rocket stuck out of a small crater in the ground.

 

The rebels denied firing on the town, but their apparent ability to strike so far into Ukrainian-held territory will complicate the peace talks that aim to reestablish a ceasefire that the separatists repudiated with a new offensive last month.

 

At the front in Vuhlehirsk, a small town captured by rebels last week, volleys of artillery crashed in both directions. The rebels are pushing to encircle government forces holding out in nearby Debaltseve, a rail hub that is the main rebel target.

 

Rebels sounded triumphant and said they had no intention of halting with government troops on the back foot.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/10/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0LE1GL20150210

 

Reuters is a fairly reliable news source.

Edited February 11, 2015 by trottigy

[New World Explorer]

Even experts can't do that... both sides have the same ammunition and veappons ...

Heat signature can easily tell where the missiles are coming from ... No problem there,

It just shows that our neutrality stand must be strong especially for those living in these areas ...

Hope they reach "peace deal" and roll slowly to the announcement of Peace and Security !

[Modeste]

And then ....Mr. Obama  sends "lethal defensive weapons"  (  :  )  to the government in Kiev and then...voilà... (guess what?)

 

Washington have already sent 'aid' to Ukraine. In other words they are arming Pro-US\Kiev forces in Ukraine and have been doing so covertly since the Maidan Protests started.

 

There were ceasefires before all of which collapsed. The situation in Ukraine is very precarious now. Millions of Ukrainians are fleeing into Russia. The same nation the West is blaming for the destabilization....

 

Its in Russia's best interest for this Civil War on its boarder to end. The USA\UK frankly don't care as a conflict in Western Europe is unlikely to affect them other than economically. Ukraine is being balkanised as we speak. The country is completely insolvent. Its currency has collapsed. Its economy is in ruins. And Brussels is fiddling while Ukraine burns. And only nation that continues to help Ukraine economically is Russia who have economic interests in the country that stretche back decades. 

[Dustparticle]

And Obama wants ground troups in Iraq and Syria agianst ISIS.

[Shawnster]

 

 

Its in Russia's best interest for this Civil War on its boarder to end. The USA\UK frankly don't care as a conflict in Western Europe is unlikely to affect them other than economically. Ukraine is being balkanised as we speak. The country is completely insolvent. Its currency has collapsed. Its economy is in ruins. And Brussels is fiddling while Ukraine burns. And only nation that continues to help Ukraine economically is Russia who have economic interests in the country that stretche back decades. 

 

The problem is the current government of Ukraine does not want Russia.  Russia would strategically like to absorb Ukraine, or, at least, make it into a very friendly neighbor because of Russia's annexation of Crimea last year.  Having direct land access from Russia to Crimea would be highly valued.  It only makes sense for Russia to support the "pro-Russian" rebels in the Ukraine civil war.  

 

The only way I see Russia wanting an end to the civil war would be if it ended with a pro-Russian leadership in control of Ukraine.   

[Modeste]

The problem is the current government of Ukraine does not want Russia.  Russia would strategically like to absorb Ukraine, or, at least, make it into a very friendly neighbor because of Russia's annexation of Crimea last year.  Having direct land access from Russia to Crimea would be highly valued.  It only makes sense for Russia to support the "pro-Russian" rebels in the Ukraine civil war.  

 

The only way I see Russia wanting an end to the civil war would be if it ended with a pro-Russian leadership in control of Ukraine.   

Hmm this isnt really true. And is mostly the skewed narrative from the Main Stream Press. Russia has historical, cultural and more importantly economic ties with Ukraine that go back hundreds of years. It was after all part of Russia. It's not in Russia's best interest at all for Ukraine to implode, nor for millions of refugees to spill over into neighbouring Russia, nor is it in their interest for a full scale Civil War to be occurring on their boarder. Economically Ukraine has a lot of value to Russia, of which the Ukrainian economy is entirely intertwined with Russia. 

Now Russia only ceded Crimea as A) Crimeans voted to secede rather than be governed by the Right wing Neo-Nazi's that are ethnically cleansing the East, of which the Crimeans choose wisely as their fate would have been the same as the West & East of Ukraine and Russia took advantage of the unrest in West to regain territory that was strategically lost to NATO who have reneged repeatedly on agreements made between the US\NATO and Russia when Gorbachev was in power after the end of the Cold War. 

While the West seems to want to make a big fuss about the annexation of Crimea fundamentally the Crimeans voted for it 'Democratically'. To the tune of 90% + which was internationally observed. Either way their alternative would have been governance by the Nazi Junta in the West whose primary goal is the expulsion of ethnic Russians and the eradication of what they deem as subversive Russian influence. 

 

As for Pro Russian rebels this has been repeated a lot in the MSM. The reality is those so called 'Pro Russian' rebels are actually Ukrainians. Russia does not have a military presence in the country nor is Russia trying to undermine the current 'illegitimate' government of Ukraine. Russia needs an end to violence in order to secure its boarder and its trade relationships with Ukraine. 

Again Russia does not require a 'Pro Russian' governance in Ukraine. It was the USA who ploughed billions into destabilizing Ukraine via covert means in order for NATO to encroach even further on Russian boarders as NATO post cold war is desperate to remain relevant in a Post Cold War World, and seems to be more than happy repeating Cold War rhetoric in order to re-enforce USA/NATO Geo-strategic hegemony.

Ultimately though the violence of the Maidan instigated by US subversive tactics was for the Troika to assume economic control of Ukraine while severing ties with Russia which resulted in Yanukovoch being ousted as he didn't agree to the Troikas demands.

This has presented a number of problems to Europe. As A) Ukraine is not a member of NATO. European Nations are having to foot the bill to fund Ukraine with the Troika extending loans to Ukraine that it can't pay service, all of which are subsidized by European taxpayers when Ukraine isn't even part of the EU. And C) Europe is badly affected, especially Germans by the economic sanctions on Russia which are counter productive and hurting the European Economy(s) as well as the Global Economy, namely Oil and the dollar.

Thus by and large what is happening in Ukraine isn't about Ukraine retaining its sovereignty nor is it about the protecting the lives of Ukrainians. As Ukraine's future will be determined by Brussels. But rather this dispute is actually a battle of Economic Geo-strategic and political control by Western banking cartels who are more than happy to saddle Ukraine and mire its economy in debt (just like Greece) that it cannot repay as the country is simply insolvent, and what's left of the productive portions of the economy have been ruined by War. 

 

The West ergo Europe/NATO/USA actually had the audacity a year ago not to include Russia in negotiations for a peace settlement. Nearly 6000 lives later and a false flag MH17, and a  balkanised Ukraine, it is still at the square root of zero. And all they've done is replace one Oligarch with another. The same Oligarch whose been begging the USA for 'lethal aid' that Mr Obama said is an option. The Wests strategy in Ukraine is the height of insanity. They seem to have no problem with Neo-Nazi's running the country as long as they're doing Victoria Nulands bidding and the bidding of the Troika. 

[Mykyl]

This is the world they want... let them have it. Nothing to do with us other than how it affects our brothers and sisters.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Mykyl

[Shawnster]

Hmm this isnt really true. 

 

Which part of my statement was untrue?

 

Does the current government of the Ukraine want a better relationship with Russia than they had prior to 2014?

 

Would it not be in Russia's strategic interest to absorb at least the eastern portion of Ukraine so as to have direct land access to Crimea?

 

Are the rebel factions fighting against the Ukrainian authorities pro Russian?

 

I did not mention anything about Russia having or not having ground forces in Ukraine.  

[Modeste]

Which part of my statement was untrue?

 

Does the current government of the Ukraine want a better relationship with Russia than they had prior to 2014?

 

Would it not be in Russia's strategic interest to absorb at least the eastern portion of Ukraine so as to have direct land access to Crimea?

 

Are the rebel factions fighting against the Ukrainian authorities pro Russian?

 

I did not mention anything about Russia having or not having ground forces in Ukraine.  

Ukraine was stable prior to 2014. Its relationship with Russia was fine. Things only took a nose dive when the Maidan protests started which had nothing to do with Russia. 

 

Russia isn't interested in annexing Ukraine. Ukraine has its own sovereignty, or at least what's left of it that Russia has indicated for at least a year now that its content to work with.

 

The so called 'Pro-Russians' (who are actually Ukrainians) rebel factions want their own autonomous region away from Kiev and the West of Ukraine. They're not fighting to be annexed by Russia. Of which those separatists demands have been included in the latest Minsk agreement. 

[Stavro]

While the West seems to want to make a big fuss about the annexation of Crimea fundamentally the Crimeans voted for it 'Democratically'. To the tune of 90% + which was internationally observed. 

 

Russia has also had a documented 146% voter turnout, ballot-boxes pre filled with votes, voting stations with non-working pens, and government-paid ferries bringing people from one polling station to the next to they can vote multiple times.

 

Clearly such an upstanding and morally sound country wouldn't resort to election fraud to gain land that they've sought for years, would they?

[Stavro]

a false flag MH17

 

Is there any proof of this beyond government-owned propaganda outlets or conspiracy bloggers?

 

There's plenty of blame to go around in this world without repeating thoroughly debunked political propaganda.

[Modeste]

Russia has also had a documented 146% voter turnout, ballot-boxes pre filled with votes, voting stations with non-working pens, and government-paid ferries bringing people from one polling station to the next to they can vote multiple times.

 

Clearly such an upstanding and morally sound country wouldn't resort to election fraud to gain land that they've sought for years, would they?

We both know there is no such thing as 'upstanding' nor morally sound country. The problem with the issue in Ukraine is there sheer amount of deliberate disinformation that has been repeated ad naseum by Western press. Both sides have their own agenda that much is obvious. Agendas aside the fate of the Crimeans would have been the same as the rest of Ukraine if Kiev was still in charge. 

[Modeste]

Is there any proof of this beyond government-owned propaganda outlets or conspiracy bloggers?

 

There's plenty of blame to go around in this world without repeating thoroughly debunked political propaganda.

 

Its impossible to draw any concrete conclusion because of the dearth of misinformation produced after the event.

 

The West accused Russia of the attack and offered no evidence to back up its claim. This isn't the first time this has happened as nearly two years ago a similar case happened in Syria over Chemical Weapons attacks where Russia presented evidence to the UN that was summarily ignored.

 

Russia on the other hand presented their evidence to 'Independent' investigators and to the U.N. on MH17. They allegedly had Satellite imagery proving there was no Russian involvement. Ukraine on the other hand refused pointedly to provide any evidence of any of its accusations and nor did it cooperate with the investigators, in some cases hindering the investigation into the incident. The USA did the same refusing to provide evidence of its claims of Russian involvement in MH17.

 

Either way that plane was definitely shot down as proven by the wreckage and remains of the plane. You can make of that what you will but those are the facts the arbiters in the issue, UN et al, were and are aware of.

Just for clarity my post is not about apportioning blame. Nor do i visit conspiracy websites/blogs. Contrary to 'how' you seem to have read my post i have no partiality to any side in this affair. But rather what i'm attempting to explain that the MSM narrative has painted a very one sided affair based primarily on half truths.

 

In addition MH17 is anything but debunked by any political government connected to the event. Matter of fact no government to my knowledge has claimed it was a false flag. False flags have been happening since empires began. They're part of the political tool and arsenal of World governments and economic empires. May be this or isn't a false flag. But what we do know is Russia provided evidence to the U.N that it had no involvement and the MSM have been silent on the MH17 affair since. 

[Shawnster]

 

 

The so called 'Pro-Russians' (who are actually Ukrainians) rebel factions ...

 

I think we all understand and agree the "Pro-Russian" rebels are actually Ukrainian.  That's the basic definition of a civil war - internal warfare between members of the same nation.  

?

Since the media is spinning things, where do you get your information?  What is a reliable source for the true facts?

[Shawnster]

Both sides have their own agenda that much is obvious. 

 

What is Russia's agenda, then?

[Stavro]

Its impossible to draw any concrete conclusion because of the dearth of misinformation produced after the event.

 

Exactly, there is no evidence of which government or group caused the crash, nor is there any evidence that such actions were intentional in the first place.

 

So claiming "false flag", (the idea that an outside government intentionally fired on the plane to justify their further involvement in the civil war) is propaganda at best.

 

 

The West accused Russia of the attack and offered no evidence to back up its claim.

 

Both sides have presented an abundance of evidence, and both sides have had all their evidence debunked or outright ignored by those who believe the opposite story.

 

As I see it, the facts are simple: A plane crashed and all 239 people on board died.

 

If you want to discuss which of Satan's demonic princes holds the final responsibility for these deaths, which demon-run propaganda organization is promoting worse falsehoods, which minion of Satan is the rightful leader of Ukraine, or anything else related to politics, remember who it is you're really defending.

[Modeste]

So claiming "false flag", (the idea that an outside government intentionally fired on the plane to justify their further involvement in the civil war) is propaganda at best.

 

 

I don't agree. The available evidence does make the attack in my opinion look like a false flag. The plane was shot out of the sky. Therefore its destruction was intentional. By whom as we both know is not known. 

 

If you want to discuss which of Satan's demonic princes holds the final responsibility for these deaths, which demon-run propaganda organization is promoting worse falsehoods, which minion of Satan is the rightful leader of Ukraine, or anything else related to politics, remember who it is you're really defending.

 

Again no i do not and no im not defending any side in this conflict. I've already explained that to you. What i am attempting to explain is the facts of the incidents and the logical conclusions that can be drawn from the said available evidence.