angels and women

[carlos]

Wow, You just described me to a "T"! Carlos, I'm flattered that you know me so well! Hehe!

 

Nobody can be all those at the same time. Well, if somebody can it's you.

[shali]

It's obvious you've haven't met my other 23 personalities.:-)

[1gemstone]

I'd often wondered how did the slave know, that the angel materialized into earthly men, because there's no scripture to back that up. If, I'm wrong, please feel to correct me this.

PS - Sharon done leave, you're will be missed, just like a cool glass of water.

[kejedo]

agents of evil 2/1/94 has an interesting take on this.  

[1gemstone]

agents of evil 2/1/94 has an interesting take on this.

Is that a book or a Wt article?

[kejedo]

ALSO 4/15/200 Watchtower  Do You View Violent Ones as God Does?

[kejedo]

Is that a book or a Wt article?

watchtower

[1gemstone]

watchtower

Thank you for the information, I will look that up. I listened to Br Herd's discourse on Giants, very very interesting. I hope you can get a opportunity to listen to it.

I must admit, that I was able to download a portion of the book, I'm just skimming through it, not too sure it I would buy the book, still kinda nervous about.

[trottigy]

I'd often wondered how did the slave know, that the angel materialized into earthly men, because there's no scripture to back that up. If, I'm wrong, please feel to correct me this.

PS - Sharon done leave, you're will be missed, just like a cool glass of water.

Well we have Gen 6:2

The sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose.

we know they "took wives" and they didn't do it by turning women into spirit beings. They had to do this the other way around - them become human.

We also have Jude

6 And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 So too Sod'om and Go·mor'rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

Yep, the angels "forsook heaven" to come to earth. Verse 7 shows they did so to have unnatural sex (added to Gen 6 - we see with women). This requires certain human male body parts to make that happen.

It is reasonable to conclude the angels took on human form to do what these Bible verses say they did.

Edited May 20, 2015 by trottigy

[1gemstone]

Thank you Jerry for the insight on the scriptures.

Like I said, I was always curious about how the slave knew the angels "materalized" into humans ( too afraid ask anyone ). Now that you pointed out to me that it is a " reasonable conclusion " from the scriptures you quoted, that these angels took on this humans form, now it clear. That's one of the reason why I love this forum so much, there is always somebody who will take the time to explain things that you might not understand.

In a classroom setting, you always had your "A" students and your "B" students and the students that always be needed a tutor, that was me.

[trottigy]

You had me thinking about this and so I went to Lil at the works of Josephus to see how he wrote this history:

For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better: but seeing they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land.

This is a little more direct.
Edited May 20, 2015 by trottigy

[kejedo]

Satan did not forsake his position until after the creation of Eve. like the rest who forsook their natural dwelling place, Satan was also motivated to appeal to Eve, as I understand it.  None of us could understand the Bible without a tutor.

[carlos]

Yep, the angels "forsook heaven" to come to earth. Verse 7 shows they did so to have unnatural sex (added to Gen 6 - we see with women). This requires certain human male body parts to make that happen.

It is reasonable to conclude the angels took on human form to do what these Bible verses say they did.

 

Besides, we know from other episodes in the Scriptures that angels have the ability to take human forms, and they often did that when they had to talk to humans. Demons used that God-given ability with a completely different purpose.

[timsimmk]

I think that it may be wise to leave it alone personally. I am not stumbled by the brothers promoting it as it were though, as I can see that their intentions were entirely honourable. They wanted people to be warned about spiritism. It's just a shame that back then the brothers were a little less-than-cautious at times as to how they went about it. Of course we have been taught by Jesus as head of the congregation to me more cautious nowadays. 

 

Brother Russell once stated that astrologers were also pointing to 1914 as a significant year. Many accuse him of supporting astrology, but actually in context he condemned astrology as of the devil and said that he had come across the predictions of astrologers (perhaps by a less-than-sensible reader of the WT) saying that 1914 was significant and it occurred to him that even the devil can tell a truth when it suits him. He was not supporting or specifically using astrology to support his Biblical teachings, but unfortunately he has been misrepresented. That's the beauty of hindsight I suppose. 

[trottigy]

I just finished reading this - actually the original Seola.

It was pretty good. I never thought about there being a fight in the spirit realm at the same time as the flood, but there had to be something happen there - as they were thrown into Tartarus and put into chains of dense darkness (2 Peter 2:4)

Interesting book.

[ReadYourBible]

I thought so too, it's like the one story that brother was writing about David's interaction with Goliath, a portion of which he shared with us on the forum.  

 

It's the filler in between the gaps in the story.  I know when I first read the foreword I was very leery, but after looking at a bunch of different things (and the fact brother Russell himself recommended the read in the Golden Age Journal  July 30, 1924, p. 702) I figured that maybe it may be worthwhile to do so.

 

I was also surprised by the fight in the spirit realm, but as you say something had to have happened in order for them to end up in Tartarus, they didn't just put themselves there!  

 

You guys are fortunate, you'll be able to meet Noah and his sons, and their wives and they can tell you exactly what it was like!  
 

[trottigy]

They idea that Japheth's wife was a last minute add on to the group in the ark - also interesting.

[Flow]

Could you share the title of the talk please? Several of the talks on Central Print attributed to "Samuel Herd" are really other speakers and wrongly attributed to brother Herd.

 

 

As to the content of the book, not everything printed by the branch remains proper spiritual food. For example, brother Russell taught pyramidology, a belief that was officially ended in 1928. While the studies are fascinating, any calculations adding to 1914 are purely coincidental, and should not be taken as fact.

 

The Forward of the book is very clear as to its source and content. (See image of page 5 attached below.) Between the professed source of the book, and the direct admission that the book is a study in demonism (which we are now told to avoid entirely), I wouldn't make the book part of my regular study.

 

Forward.PNG

 

Even though it seems the revision is made by a brother, as it is said here, the forward of the book is quite clear on the information source for the writer of the manuscript...

So could we say that this is OK to read it?

[carlos]

Even though it seems the revision is made by a brother, as it is said here, the forward of the book is quite clear on the information source for the writer of the manuscript...

So could we say that this is OK to read it?

 

Flow, our brothers from the Russell era were as careful as we are now, if not more, to avoid anything to do with demonism or the occult.

 

There is absolutely nothing in that book that has anything to do with spiritism. It does not promote spiritism in any form nor comes from any spiritistic source. It's just a novel about how things may have developed before the Flood.

 

Is it ok to read a novel about the Exodus or about David's life, or about any other Biblical episode, that fills in the gaps with some characters, conversations and events? Of course everyone may decide whether they wish to spend their time reading something that, after all, is just fiction. But there is nothing in that book that makes it any more unacceptable than any other historical fiction novel.

[Flow]

Is it ok to read a novel about the Exodus or about David's life, or about any other Biblical episode, that fills in the gaps with some characters, conversations and events? Of course everyone may decide whether they wish to spend their time reading something that, after all, is just fiction. But there is nothing in that book that makes it any more unacceptable than any other historical fiction novel.

 

I agree with this point, because there is no problem with fiction.

The point I want to emphasize is that if the source is demonic, as it is alleged there, could it be good for us, regardless its content?

[timsimmk]

I agree with this point, because there is no problem with fiction.

The point I want to emphasize is that if the source is demonic, as it is alleged there, could it be good for us, regardless its content?

 

I agree with Florent. It's not one that I would read personally. But I want to emphasise that I don't mean that the Society were promoting spiritism, as their stated purpose was that people be warned about the dangers of spiritism by the book. I also don't think that anyone who has read it is guilty of spiritism. It's a conscience matter for me, much like watching certain movies. 

[carlos]

I agree with this point, because there is no problem with fiction.

The point I want to emphasize is that if the source is demonic, as it is alleged there, could it be good for us, regardless its content?

 

Florent, we are in agreement. If a book comes from a demonic source, it's not proper for Christians. That's exactly my point: this book's source is not demonic, it's just fiction.

 

The original book, Seola, is presented as the contents of a very ancient diary found by some archaeologists, a device quite common in fiction works nowadays but apparently quite innovative at the time.

 

The brothers and the general public at the time were quite naive. The reviser (that is, the brother who adapted the book to the Bible Students' beliefs and titled it "Angels and Women") apparently believed that that ancient diary had been found indeed, and that the novel was actually a translation of its contents. And he was so struck by the "accuracy" of the events told there (that is, they agreed so perfectly well with the beliefs Bible Student's had at the time) that he considered it couldn't be anything else than a real story told to Japheth's wife by one of those fallen angels turned repentant. But that was just his personal ingenuous opinion. Such claim is never made in the book, and obviously there is no such ancient document, it's all a literary device.

[timsimmk]

Florent, we are in agreement. If a book comes from a demonic source, it's not proper for Christians. That's exactly my point: this book's source is not demonic, it's just fiction.

 

The original book, Seola, is presented as the contents of a very ancient diary found by some archaeologists, a device quite common in fiction works nowadays but apparently quite innovative at the time.

 

The brothers and the general public at the time were quite naive. The reviser (that is, the brother who adapted the book to the Bible Students' beliefs and titled it "Angels and Women") apparently believed that that ancient diary had been found indeed, and that the novel was actually a translation of its contents. And he was so struck by the "accuracy" of the events told there (that is, they agreed so perfectly well with the beliefs Bible Student's had at the time) that he considered it couldn't be anything else than a real story told to Japheth's wife by one of those fallen angels turned repentant. But that was just his personal ingenuous opinion. Such claim is never made in the book, and obviously there is no such ancient document, it's all a literary device.

 

I thought there was something about the story allegedly coming to the author after hearing some beautiful music, and that this was interpreted to be demonic communication?

[alohapaulette]

On 5/17/2015 at 9:50 AM, carlos said:

Before someone is lapidated here, some background information.

 

"Angels and Women" is not a book of demonic propaganda. It's a novel written by a brother in the twenties as a recreation of events that led to the Flood. Or rather, a revision of such a previous novel, titled "Seola" and published in 1878. Today we would call it historical fiction. It describes a historical period although most of the facts it narrates are fictional.

 

Brother Russell read that book and liked it, since it contained many details that agreed with the Bible. So when a brother prepared a revision adapted to the beliefs of Bible Students, he helped that brother to publish it. The book was offered to Bible Students at a special price.

 

We can question the accuracy of that book and its usefulness for Witnesses today. Someone could find it interesting while others could find it a waste of time. But calling it demonic propaganda is simply unfair. It was a novel recommended by our publications at the time. (But not, it's not quoted in the Proclaimers book or any other recent publication.)

 

This is a review of "Angels and Women" from The Golden Age (today Awake!), July 30, 1924 p. 702, quoted by Sharon above (I cropped the article directly from the magazine myself, didn't copy it from somewhere else):

 

 

Dear Bro. Carlos,  Thank  you for your clarifying comments awhile back regarding the rather controversial novels, "Angels and Women", and "Seola". I particularly appreciate your inclusion of the review quote and your comment of "historical fiction," because that is exactly what the content is.  For example the movie, "Pearl Harbor."  We know the event on December 7, 1941 is a historical fact, but not necessarily the plot of that movie. 

 

Therefore, I would like yours and anyone else's feedback from reading one and/ or the other novel.   I have my own personal reasons for this request.  This does not mean to go and read them now, because there is so much current priority reading material to absorb these days, but only if one has already read either of  these publications.

 

To dispel any jitters that the books were purportedly influenced by "the spooks," I will relate my own experience.  I was given the book Angels and Women by my Bible study conductor, Rose dos Santos when I was 17 and  in high school.  She had several copies that her husband, Joe dos Santos, once branch overseer of the Philippines, were given by Bro. Rutherford.  Their life experience is in the 2003 Yearbook p. 154 - 160.  She knew I liked to read, and I recall reading the entire book in one day.

 

What I would like addressed in reading of this book is:

 

1. Did reading  the story place you in the setting of the world before the flood?

2. What was the goal/dilemma of the heroine - between her mother, and/or the world at that time?

3. Could you visualize the world at that time, i.e., everyone on drugs, gang violence, trafficking in young women - just like today?

4. What  worldly influence of the Nephilim  reminded  you of the world of today, i.e., competitive contact sports, wrestling, boxing,  etc.

5. Did you feel the importance of the ark being the only means of salvation from that evil world?  Also, did it seem unlikely.  Explain.

6. Did you feel the urgency of the heroine getting into that ark before the destructive forces were unleashed?  If so, how did the heroine accomplish this?

 

7. What positive aspects, if any, did this story impress upon you? 

8. What negative aspects, or what did you not like by reading this story?

 

9. Would you like to see this story, or something similar, in video or movie form?  Why?  If not, or if you do?

 

Thank you, and appreciate your time and energy in responding to this.

 

I welcome any and all feed back, good or bad, and will take such into consideration.

 

Aloha,

 

What did you enjoy from reading either of these publications?  Did it increase your faith in Jehovah's promises? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carlos]

On 23/2/2017 at 8:48 PM, alohapaulette said:

Therefore, I would like yours and anyone else's feedback from reading one and/ or the other novel.   I have my own personal reasons for this request.  This does not mean to go and read them now, because there is so much current priority reading material to absorb these days, but only if one has already read either of  these publications.

Paulette, I am sorry that I cannot comment those points you mention, since this book is still in my to-read list. I read the first few chapters some time ago, then left it for something more urgent and never resumed it. I plan to read it in the near future though.