Has the art of "Romantic Subtly" been lost?

[EccentricM]

16 hours ago, Katty said:

Putting my two cents in dating people with a position in the congregation: I do think it's not good to say "I only date pioneers or minesterial servants, etc.", because sometimes a person may want such a position but their circumstances don't allow it, but I think in a situation, like if you meet someone over long distances, I can see why preferring someone with a position in the congregation can serve many advantages. When you meet someone in an online setting like this one, it's really difficult to establish the person's standing and reputation in the congregation, so if someone shows evidence that they're a Servant or that they are a pioneer or pioneered in the past, it gives so much more evidence to reassure you that they are firm in the truth and, not just coasting, so to speak. Of course not all pioneers or Servants are equally spiritual as that's a continuous process, but having a position, shows that person put work into reaching out for more responsibility.

Or like me, could be spiritually minded, but you're just terrible at "organisation" and "consistancy". Ive even tried to run gaming & RP communities of my own creation which I was passioniate for, and they ended up abandoned because I just couldn't "keep up" with the management, regularity, event running etc.

Edited December 7, 2020 by EccentricM

[Hope]

23 minutes ago, Brother Jack said:

I was referring to 1 Corinthians 7:9. The brother or sister with the acute sex drive may feel like they “do not have self control.” 

 

9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion

No, I understand that.. and what the scripture means. But unless said brother or sister are already dating someone (or, hopefully each other), they still can't just marry someone coz they're horny. 😒  Their options are to wrangle some self-control or commit fornication. 

 

Nothing is impossible. It is still a choice.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Hope

[Amygdala]

Those natural sexual desires is an area that needs to be constantly worked on, as most of the cases of disfellowshipping are because of fornication. Also those who are in marriages who feel inbalanced in that way, (albeit other reasons too) have led to adultery. Paul said it was better to marry than to be inflamed with passion, but if it is the sole reason for getting married, then it will definitely becloud a person's judgment and may lack the other form of love. But the reason itself is not wrong to marry if someone has a stronger tendency in that area, and finds it hard to develop self-control.

[Hope]

What a romantic proposal- "Will you marry me? I need sex and I can't control myself any longer." Has anyone said that? Has anyone accepted? 🤔

 

Believe me, I get the sentiment- I'm not really arguing.  I've lost my place in the Truth three times because of this issue, my son has, too. But marriage still never became an option for various reasons, so... if there exists no willing partner, we either need to pray for and exhibit self-control or commit fornication again. That is the choice.

[Cushi]

33 minutes ago, Hope said:

No, I understand that.. and what the scripture means. But unless said brother or sister are already dating someone (or, hopefully each other), they still can't just marry someone coz they're horny. 😒  Their options are to wrangle some self-control or commit fornication. 

 

Nothing is impossible. It is still a choice.

I never said it was impossible nor did I imply that it was as easy as picking someone in the congregation and marrying them. I said the brother or sister may feel like remaining chaste is pretty much impossible so they chose to marry. Some have married young in the truth in light of 1 Corinthians 7:9 because they were afraid they weren’t going to be able to remain chase. That’s what I was speaking of.

[Amygdala]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

if there exists no willing partner, we either need to pray for and exhibit self-control or commit fornication again.

Hopefully the former...see thread on Why 3 times?

[Amygdala]

54 minutes ago, Brother Jack said:

Some have married young in the truth in light of 1 Corinthians 7:9 because they were afraid they weren’t going to be able to remain chase.

Yes, I totally understood you. Those hormones!!

As the saying goes: "those who marry in haste, repent at leisure..."

[Hope]

1 hour ago, Brother Jack said:

I never said it was impossible nor did I imply that it was as easy as picking someone in the congregation and marrying them. I said the brother or sister may feel like remaining chaste is pretty much impossible so they chose to marry. Some have married young in the truth in light of 1 Corinthians 7:9 because they were afraid they weren’t going to be able to remain chase. That’s what I was speaking of.

I do understand. I guess I've never really felt like getting married was that much of a "choice". Since it absolutely depends upon someone else agreeing to it, I don't see how just "getting married" is a simple solution to excess hormones. 

 

No doubt, it's just my own mindset and experience. . I've never felt I could get married just coz I wanted to or felt the need.  THAT was what was impossible. 

[blueyellow]

17 hours ago, blueyellow said:

Yes, this is the situation the Bible talks about.

Did I say anything wrong, Uani?

I noticed your reaction to my post.

 

I meant 1Co 7:9, but Brother Jack already mentioned it.

[blueyellow]

12 hours ago, Hope said:

You still can't just pick someone out of the crowd and say, "hey, you! get over here and marry me right now!!!"  😉   

 

Yeah, because you've got a strong personality and you've got standards.

 

But I've seen sisters in my area who simply chose someone over the Internet and got married.

Sadly, they're not married anymore.

 

[blueyellow]

3 hours ago, Hope said:

What a romantic proposal- "Will you marry me? I need sex and I can't control myself any longer." Has anyone said that? Has anyone accepted? 🤔

 

Believe me, I get the sentiment- I'm not really arguing.  I've lost my place in the Truth three times because of this issue, my son has, too. But marriage still never became an option for various reasons, so... if there exists no willing partner, we either need to pray for and exhibit self-control or commit fornication again. That is the choice.

 

Yeah, it happened.

 

Two young sisters in my congregation left their husbands because they wanted more sex than their husbands offered.

They both got married to somebody else and now they're in the truth.

I'm sure when they chose their second husband, that they discussed their sex drive. They had no shame, everybody in the area knew what they lacked.

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by blueyellow

[Amygdala]

2 hours ago, Hope said:

Since it absolutely depends upon someone else agreeing to it, I don't see how just "getting married" is a simple solution to excess hormones. 

Yes, but I do think that some "make" it happen. My ex-fiance told me he was born to get married - whatever that meant. He was 19 and I was 21 at the time. Plus I learned afterwards that he had fooled around in highschool, almost getting to the point of committing sexual immorality. He was the son of the presiding overseer in their small town, too! 

 

After our break-up, he went on to date and marry his boss' daughter (a Witness family). She was 16 when I first met her, as my ex used to take me to the home of his boss, and I met them all.  Later when she turned 18 they got married, and boom, she got pregnant right away. He made his goal of being "born to be married" happen. At the time my goal for marriage was definitely on a different level as his. But I am happy he was able to settle down and "make" his goal happen. They are still married today.

[JennyM]

7 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

I was referring to 1 Corinthians 7:9. The brother or sister with the acute sex drive may feel like they “do not have self control.” 

 

9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion

Young adult life between 20-40... 

[Hope]

9 hours ago, blueyellow said:

Did I say anything wrong, Uani?

I noticed your reaction to my post.

 

I meant 1Co 7:9, but Brother Jack already mentioned it.

No, nothing wrong. I was just sad thinking about my "three times". Nothing you said at all..

[Hope]

7 hours ago, Lieblingskind said:

Yes, but I do think that some "make" it happen. My ex-fiance told me he was born to get married - whatever that meant. He was 19 and I was 21 at the time. Plus I learned afterwards that he had fooled around in highschool, almost getting to the point of committing sexual immorality. He was the son of the presiding overseer in their small town, too! 

 

After our break-up, he went on to date and marry his boss' daughter (a Witness family). She was 16 when I first met her, as my ex used to take me to the home of his boss, and I met them all.  Later when she turned 18 they got married, and boom, she got pregnant right away. He made his goal of being "born to be married" happen. At the time my goal for marriage was definitely on a different level as his. But I am happy he was able to settle down and "make" his goal happen. They are still married today.

Still.... someone agreed to marry the guy. It was dependent upon the choice of someone else. Perhaps it was easy for him but it's not for everyone. 

 

If I could marry who I wanted without their  agreeing, I'd be all good! 

[Amygdala]

No of course, it takes 2!  Although someone doesn't have to outright say "because I can't control myself." Still it might be a focus for some on wanting to get married, and not necessarily because he or she revealed it to their future spouse. Of course open communication is the foundation for a successful marriage, but maybe someone married young or too quickly, got caught up in the moment of "love."

 

You also hear of some getting married just shortly after they met, even eloping after a few months, weeks or days. What's the rush then?

Edited December 7, 2020 by Lieblingskind

[Amygdala]

29 minutes ago, Hope said:

No, nothing wrong. I was just sad thinking about my "three times".

Look ahead, don't worry about the past. 💗

[Hope]

3 hours ago, Lieblingskind said:

Look ahead, don't worry about the past. 💗

🥰 Not worried a bit. It's just there for easy reference 😉

[Cushi]

Back to the topic... has the art of romantic subtly been lost? What do you guys think?

[Hope]

Yes

[Katty]

Thinking more on the topic:
The World's Influence:
Ever since the 60's sex has been increasingly separated from the context of a long term, specificallly marital relationship. Before that 90%, if you wanted have sex with someone, it came within the concept of you wanted to spend your whole life with them. People reserved their sexual attention, in the form of flirtation, making eyes, etc. for someone they were seriously considering a serious relationship with, and thus, you could see a more easy contrast between someone courting you and someone not courting you. For a man to flirt with all the girls either for a one night stand or to play them for a fool, while, it was generally more socially accepted for a girl to do the same, I believe, it would still garner a boy with a reputation of someone you would not want your daughter to have anything to do with.  Just like how, today, the more "liberated" women of the world hook up with guy after guy, only to find that, later on it diminishes their chances of finding a long term partner, I'm sure the same was always true of men who were more promiscuous than society was comfortable with, or even had the reputation for being so. If a man wanted to find a long term partner, I would imagine, he'd instinctively realize that required some level of responsibility on his part.

Because hooking up is no big deal in today's society, I believe, romance has been pushed to the side, and sex has become something very devalued in the world, "I want to have sex with you" doesn't come with the heavy context that it has in the past, so if I guy gives a girl that particular signal, it means a lot less. So what if you make bedroom eyes at me, and send the signal that you find me attractive? You probably do that with half a dozen girls, and just pick up on the most receptive one, and when you're done with her, move on to another one. So, yeah, in short, a guy can flirt with a girl, and because he probably has a dozen girls that he'd like to try out in the back of his mind, it doesn't mean much of anything. It's difficult to send that signal of "I want something more long term" as opposed to wanting something casual. It becomes more confusing.

[Katty]

On 12/7/2020 at 12:04 PM, JennyM said:

Young adult life between 20-40... 

YES! I'm still a young adult 😄

 

[Katty]

On 12/7/2020 at 6:02 AM, EccentricM said:

Or like me, could be spiritually minded, but you're just terrible at "organisation" and "consistancy". Ive even tried to run gaming & RP communities of my own creation which I was passioniate for, and they ended up abandoned because I just couldn't "keep up" with the management, regularity, event running etc.

That's true. I absolutely believe people without positions can be very spiritual, but it takes longer to establish that, because, again, going back to the long distance example, you have to get to know a few people in their congregation, especially elders to establish their standing. And, again, even Misterial Servants/Elders can hide tendencies that, while it might not put them out of the truth, might make for a very miserable relationship (like a tendency to be extremely controlling or passive aggressive)

Edited December 8, 2020 by Katty

[Alexa]

14 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

Back to the topic... has the art of romantic subtly been lost? What do you guys think?

I personally will say no. But in a different context. I think its just about that we are purposely made by Jehovah to be husband and wife. There are lots of romantic stories we can get from our brothers and sisters whom some serve faithfully. Its the reality of falling out of love, there will be endurance, faith and courage, etc which we also need in our relationship with Jehovah.

[JennyM]

17 hours ago, Katty said:

Thinking more on the topic:
The World's Influence:
Ever since the 60's sex has been increasingly separated from the context of a long term, specificallly marital relationship. Before that 90%, if you wanted have sex with someone, it came within the concept of you wanted to spend your whole life with them. People reserved their sexual attention, in the form of flirtation, making eyes, etc. for someone they were seriously considering a serious relationship with, and thus, you could see a more easy contrast between someone courting you and someone not courting you. For a man to flirt with all the girls either for a one night stand or to play them for a fool, while, it was generally more socially accepted for a girl to do the same, I believe, it would still garner a boy with a reputation of someone you would not want your daughter to have anything to do with.  Just like how, today, the more "liberated" women of the world hook up with guy after guy, only to find that, later on it diminishes their chances of finding a long term partner, I'm sure the same was always true of men who were more promiscuous than society was comfortable with, or even had the reputation for being so. If a man wanted to find a long term partner, I would imagine, he'd instinctively realize that required some level of responsibility on his part.

Because hooking up is no big deal in today's society, I believe, romance has been pushed to the side, and sex has become something very devalued in the world, "I want to have sex with you" doesn't come with the heavy context that it has in the past, so if I guy gives a girl that particular signal, it means a lot less. So what if you make bedroom eyes at me, and send the signal that you find me attractive? You probably do that with half a dozen girls, and just pick up on the most receptive one, and when you're done with her, move on to another one. So, yeah, in short, a guy can flirt with a girl, and because he probably has a dozen girls that he'd like to try out in the back of his mind, it doesn't mean much of anything. It's difficult to send that signal of "I want something more long term" as opposed to wanting something casual. It becomes more confusing.

 Most often it happens in the world but sadly it also happens in jw brothers. for ego purposes... Im 16 years active and Ive seen lot of that with brothers.... Few with sisters.