Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[computerwiz]

8 hours ago, cme said:

Is anyone ready or prepared for that matter.

 

What did Noah have to do during the great tribulation at that time?

 

Spoiler

Nothing.....just be on the ark.

 

Our "preparation" is doing the best we can to make it to the GT.  Once there, we can relax.  Look at these old notes I recently found:

 

Here are some highlights from the 2010 Annual meeting;

There were talks given from four members of the Governing Body, here is just a few of the points and highlights given, as follows;

POINT 1): The question should not be IF one will survive the Great Tribulation, but rather WILL one survive UNTIL the Great Tribulation. We have yet to see the problems that the Great tribulation will cause. We need not be concerned with enduring the GT because once started we have Jehovah's divine protection.

 

The problem is the events that lead up to the GT, and that is what may take many out of the truth. Many older ones already are telling the younger ones how they regretted not getting an education, pursuing a lucrative career, saving up money or not having a retirement plan. The sad truth is that such ones are like the murmurers of Israel when coming out of Egypt. Such ones wanted to go back to Egypt, not realizing Egypt was later to be defeated by the Babylonians and what was in store for them (the nation of Israel) was "the promised land that flowed with milk and honey."

 

The same is true with such ones today, they fail to realize that all of the world's economies are drying up, 401k's, stocks, fortune 500 companies and money values are dropping like crazy. Pursuing such a foolish course would have only temporarily protected them, but in the end pursuing God's way did and does work out better.

 

Especially since we have God's assurance of things yet to come upon the earth; 1) The destruction of Babylon the Great by the UN and the world's governments, which is going to invariably affect God's people: 2) The Great Tribulation, which is going to be so bad that Jesus said that never "had such a thing occurred, nor will occur again" (Matthew 24:21). The GT is going to cause people everywhere to become faint out fear, not knowing what to do (Luke 21:26), however God's people will be confident and assured of God's protection, from the fulfillment of the prophecies they will have seen for themselves, thus giving them the assurance that all of God's promises will indeed soon come true. Thus is the theme for next year's text, "(Zephaniah 3:12) . . .they will actually take refuge in the name of Jehovah. . ."

 

 

(images linked....not copied....hope that's ok?)

 

[Ahuvah]

14 minutes ago, computerwiz said:

 

What did Noah have to do during the great tribulation at that time?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nothing.....just be on the ark.

 

Our "preparation" is doing the best we can to make it to the GT.  Once there, we can relax.  Look at these old notes I recently found:

 

Here are some highlights from the 2010 Annual meeting;

There were talks given from four members of the Governing Body, here is just a few of the points and highlights given, as follows;

POINT 1): The question should not be IF one will survive the Great Tribulation, but rather WILL one survive UNTIL the Great Tribulation. We have yet to see the problems that the Great tribulation will cause. We need not be concerned with enduring the GT because once started we have Jehovah's divine protection.

 

The problem is the events that lead up to the GT, and that is what may take many out of the truth. Many older ones already are telling the younger ones how they regretted not getting an education, pursuing a lucrative career, saving up money or not having a retirement plan. The sad truth is that such ones are like the murmurers of Israel when coming out of Egypt. Such ones wanted to go back to Egypt, not realizing Egypt was later to be defeated by the Babylonians and what was in store for them (the nation of Israel) was "the promised land that flowed with milk and honey."

 

The same is true with such ones today, they fail to realize that all of the world's economies are drying up, 401k's, stocks, fortune 500 companies and money values are dropping like crazy. Pursuing such a foolish course would have only temporarily protected them, but in the end pursuing God's way did and does work out better.

 

Especially since we have God's assurance of things yet to come upon the earth; 1) The destruction of Babylon the Great by the UN and the world's governments, which is going to invariably affect God's people: 2) The Great Tribulation, which is going to be so bad that Jesus said that never "had such a thing occurred, nor will occur again" (Matthew 24:21). The GT is going to cause people everywhere to become faint out fear, not knowing what to do (Luke 21:26), however God's people will be confident and assured of God's protection, from the fulfillment of the prophecies they will have seen for themselves, thus giving them the assurance that all of God's promises will indeed soon come true. Thus is the theme for next year's text, "(Zephaniah 3:12) . . .they will actually take refuge in the name of Jehovah. . ."

 

 

(images linked....not copied....hope that's ok?)

 

I remember this clearly too, but we then thought that the cut off was the GT. So while the 'bones' of this is still valid, it seems we will have more to do than we thought during the GT, helping new or returned ones to also stand firm as all will need to be tested as well. But yes, I remember one of the GB also saying, it's not the GT we should fear, but the days leading up to the GT.

Simple semantics, until the GT this world is in the power of the wicked one, once the GT starts, Jehovah is taking over.  So his people while still in the worst conditions physically, spiritually we will be soaring.

Edited July 24 by Stormswift

[JennyM]

I remember that talk by bro Herd. They days leading up to GT is what we are  needed to be cautious. When GT comes, we have nothing to worry about. It's Jehovah's day. 

[New World Explorer]

On 7/24/2024 at 1:56 PM, Honeyflake said:

At the convention in Switzerland Brother Lett gave the closing talk. He said: Jehovah's day is certain. For this to happen, the war in the Ukraine does not have to end or there has to be peace in the Middle East, and no new president has to be elected.

I am bit confused with his statement .. So we no longer wait for "proclamation" of Peace and Security? Is our understanding changing? 

[Dustparticle]

4 hours ago, JennyM said:

I remember that talk by bro Herd. They days leading up to GT is what we are  needed to be cautious. When GT comes, we have nothing to worry about. It's Jehovah's day. 

That is so true sis. All the institutions, BTG, and all the governments will collapse during this time.

[Ahuvah]

1 minute ago, New World Explorer said:

I am bit confused with his statement .. So we no longer wait for "proclamation" of Peace and Security? Is our understanding changing? 

Remember that proclamation is going to be a veneer, they could indeed PORTRAY they have peace and security when in fact nothing has changed. 

[Dustparticle]

1 minute ago, New World Explorer said:

I am bit confused with his statement .. So we no longer wait for "proclamation" of Peace and Security? Is our understanding changing? 

 Personally will do not know why they will say P&S.

[Ahuvah]

2 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

 Personally will do not know why they will say P&S.

Yes, it's clear why ... because they will be inspired by demons to proclaim it. Would on the surface be so convincing even to mislead 'holy ones.' It's important we aren't asleep spiritually now, because we need to have full discernment when this happens. We can't rely on the FDS to give us the heads up, because as they have said, they too may not know until after the fact as prophecy is often fulfilled in hindsight. Fascinating isn't it? 

[trottigy]

10 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

I am bit confused with his statement .. So we no longer wait for "proclamation" of Peace and Security? Is our understanding changing? 

 

No, but .... The problem is - we don't know for sure which statement of P&S is "it" until we see the IMMEDIATE destruction of Babylon the Great that is supposed to happen after it.

[Ahuvah]

5 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

No, but .... The problem is - we don't know for sure which statement of P&S is "it" until we see the IMMEDIATE destruction of Babylon the Great that is supposed to happen after it.

Yes and it's at that point that those mentioned in the WT study this weekend gone, will suddenly realize the truth we have been preaching has come to pass.

[Sofia]

3 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

I am bit confused with his statement .. So we no longer wait for "proclamation" of Peace and Security? Is our understanding changing? 

That’s boggling my mind… but no speculation. Let’s wait.

 

[Sofia]

3 hours ago, Stormswift said:

Remember that proclamation is going to be a veneer, they could indeed PORTRAY they have peace and security when in fact nothing has changed. 

How? Without ending these two conflicts?

looks weird… but then they are the Slave and I’m not 😆

i have 🤷‍♀️ 

Edited July 25 by Sofia

[Dages]

4 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

I am bit confused with his statement .. So we no longer wait for "proclamation" of Peace and Security? Is our understanding changing? 

Remember that P&S is a satanic lie anyway... "they say peace but there is no peace".

We are waiting for the Attack on BtG, that will be clearer than any P&S related message

[Ahuvah]

1 hour ago, Sofia said:

How? Without ending these two conflicts?

looks weird… but then they are the Slave and I’m not 😆

i have 🤷‍♀️ 

Dages explained it perfectly. They will say Peace when there is no peace. That is what a veneer is. It's something artificial that covers the real deal.

[Sofia]

35 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Dages explained it perfectly. They will say Peace when there is no peace. That is what a veneer is. It's something artificial that covers the real deal.

Part of the fullfillment: the religious leaders will feel safe and secure and are not expecting what´s comming:

Rev. 18:7b "For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’" 

The reference text is this:

Is. 47:7-9 "You said: “I will always be the Mistress, forever.”You did not take these things to heart;You did not consider how the matter would end. 8  Now hear this, O lover of pleasure,Who sits in security, who says in her heart:“I am the one, and there is no one else.I will not become a widow.I will never know the loss of children.” 9  But these two things will come upon you suddenly, in one day:Loss of children and widowhood.In full measure they will come upon youBecause of your many sorceries and all your powerful spells."

 

And maybe... (SPECULATION) Dan 8:25 "And by his cunning he (KOTS) will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security (without a warning)  he will bring many to ruin. (i never saw this explained by the slave yet) He will even stand up against the Prince of princes (Rev 17:14), but he will be broken without human hand (Dan. 2:44,45).

 

 

Edited July 25 by Sofia

[Sofia]

1 hour ago, Dages said:

Remember that P&S is a satanic lie anyway... "they say peace but there is no peace".

We are waiting for the Attack on BtG, that will be clearer than any P&S related message

Definetly: The attack on BTG will be clear.

Maybe the P&S wont be so clear... 

Maybe the correct thing is to expect BTG fall instead of the P&S announcement. 

[Ahuvah]

3 minutes ago, Sofia said:

Part of the fullfillment: the religious leaders will feel safe and secure and are not expecting what´s comming:

Rev. 18:7b "For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’"

Is. 47:7-9 "You said: “I will always be the Mistress, forever.”You did not take these things to heart;You did not consider how the matter would end. 8  Now hear this, O lover of pleasure,Who sits in security, who says in her heart:“I am the one, and there is no one else.I will not become a widow.I will never know the loss of children.” 9  But these two things will come upon you suddenly, in one day:Loss of children and widowhood.In full measure they will come upon youBecause of your many sorceries and all your powerful spells."

And maybe... (SPECULATION) Dan 8:25 "And by his cunning he (KOTS) will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security (without a warning)  he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes (Rev 17:14), but he will be broken without human hand (Dan. 2:44,45).

 

 

The word veneer is not mine.  It marries very well with what you quote there.  The whole perspective of the Religious leaders thinking they are on solid ground is a false security or a veneer. Their security is momentary. Nicely done.

 

[Ahuvah]

5 minutes ago, Sofia said:

Definetly: The attack on BTG will be clear.

Maybe the P&S wont be so clear... 

Maybe the correct thing is to expect BTG fall instead of the P&S announcement. 

Then how would the expressions of demons be so profound when calling P & S mislead even the 'holy ones'? Potentially.  I think we will see P&S ... but the fall of BTG will follow closely that we won't have time to catch our breath if we are relaxing spiritually. Remember P&S are actions of unclean demonic expressions and BTGs fall is Jehovah in action.

[Dages]

17 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Then how would the expressions of demons be so profound when calling P & S mislead even the 'holy ones'? Potentially.

Well, 1 Thess 5:4 shows that we won't be surprised nor mislead.

[Ahuvah]

48 minutes ago, Dages said:

Well, 1 Thess 5:4 shows that we won't be surprised nor mislead.

We, as a group won't be no. But individuals may believe the three inspired unclean expressions expressed by the Dragon, Religion and the Political elements of Satan’s world accompanied by persuasive signs. Almost seeming like they have P&S. We know that the clergy at this time will  be back by Satan and display signs and wonders much like the magic practicing priests in Moses' time. 

Mark 13:22 says that in reference to the last days that false Christ's and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders to lead astray even the 'chosen ones' So while Satan and his buddies power is limited it is expected that they will perform wonders powerful enough to mislead some. The Chosen ones always being their prime targets.**

Revelation 16:15,16 speaks of a very poignant reminder that some individuals may indeed be caught off guard. Verse 15 talks about it coming as a thief and only those who stay awake and keeps their outer garments on.

This is taken from notes of the talk by Brother Schaefer entitled 'Survive the Great Day'  He went on to explain the outer Garments were our identity by keeping awake spiritually. 

Article his talk was taken from is 'Is Your Deliverance Getting Near?' WT July 15th 2015. 

 

While a lot could be applied to the first part of the GT. The unclean inspired expressions accompanied by signs and wonders also issue from the false prophets while she is still live and kicking. 

 

I may have something confused though ... please correct me if I have. 🌹 

 

** Just reflecting on the wording of that scripture and Brother Schaefers talk ... the implication is that the INTENTION of Satan is to mislead even the Chosen ones. There is no indication on how successful he will be at this time. Genuine witnesses will I think, by and large have their outer garments firmly adorned. I guess time will tell.

Edited July 25 by Stormswift

[Dages]

1 minute ago, Stormswift said:

We, as a group won't be no. But individuals may believe the three inspired unclean expressions expressed by the Dragon, Religion and the Political elements of Satan’s world accompanied by persuasive signs. Almost seeming like they have P&S. We know that the clergy at this time will  be back by Satan and display signs and wonders much like the magic practicing priests in Moses' time. 

Mark 13:22 says that in reference to the last days that false Christ's and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders to lead astray even the 'chosen ones' So while Satan and his buddies power is limited it is expected that they will perform wonders powerful enough to mislead some. The Chosen ones always being their prime targets.

Revelation 16:15,16 speaks of a very poignant reminder that some individuals may indeed be caught off guard. Verse 15 talks about it coming as a thief and only those who stay awake and keeps their outer garments on.

This is taken from notes of the talk by Brother Schaefer entitled 'Survive the Great Day'  He went on to explain the outer Garments were our identity by keeping awake spiritually. 

Article his talk was taken from is 'Is Your Deliverance Getting Near?' WT July 15th 2015. 

 

While a lot could be applied to the first part of the GT. The unclean inspired expressions accompanied by signs and wonders also issue from the false prophets while she is still live and kicking. 

 

I may have something confused though ... please correct me if I have. 🌹 

That's true, we, as individuals, will have to stay faithful till the end of the GT

[Dhanyel]

brother probably meant that for Jehovah, nothing is impossible; He causes things to come to be. We don’t need to wait for something as significant as the end of a war, the end of conflicts, or changes in government. The day of Jehovah is set and could come at any moment. As for 'peace and security,' it is a biblical prophecy and will happen, or is already happening, regardless of our opinions. Satan will do whatever he can to lead people astray using lies, but Jehovah and Jesus are attentive and ready to intervene in earthly affairs and deliver their people

[zoebarry]

10 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

I am bit confused with his statement .. So we no longer wait for "proclamation" of Peace and Security? Is our understanding changing? 

P&S may have already been fulfilled. Sometimes understanding of prophecy being fulfilled isn’t understood till AFTER it has been fulfilled. Those with spiritual discernment can see prophecies being fulfilled. Don’t expect the brothers to make a big announcement at peace and security has been fulfilled.

[trottigy]

1 hour ago, zoebarry said:

P&S may have already been fulfilled. Sometimes understanding of prophecy being fulfilled isn’t understood till AFTER it has been fulfilled. Those with spiritual discernment can see prophecies being fulfilled. Don’t expect the brothers to make a big announcement at peace and security has been fulfilled.

 

If the proclamation of P&S as stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 has already happened then why hasn't the rest of the verse been true – the “sudden and instant destruction” of BtG?

 

Quote

Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them

 

No, it has not happened yet. 

 

Note the comment on this verse in the study Bible:

 

Quote

sudden destruction is to be instantly on them: Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of “peace and security” and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry. It will be sudden and inescapable. The Greek phrase contains two terms (rendered “sudden” and “be instantly on”) to emphasize the striking suddenness with which the destruction will come. A similar combination of terms appears at Lu 21:34, where the coming of Jehovah’s day is described.

 

This is why the slave regularly points to the destruction of Babylon the Great as the beginning as it will be the thing we can see - without doubt. 

Edited July 25 by trottigy

[Doug]

11 hours ago, Stormswift said:

Yes, it's clear why ... because they will be inspired by demons to proclaim it. Would on the surface be so convincing even to mislead 'holy ones.' 

 

12 hours ago, Stormswift said:

We can't rely on the FDS to give us the heads up, because as they have said, they too may not know until after the fact as prophecy is often fulfilled in hindsight. Fascinating isn't it? 

 

5 hours ago, Stormswift said:

 

** Just reflecting on the wording of that scripture and Brother Schaefers talk ... the implication is that the INTENTION of Satan is to mislead even the Chosen ones. There is no indication on how successful he will be at this time.

 

I like the progression of this conundrum.  P&S will be very convincing to the world, but that won't matter to us.  However, being so convincing, to the world, it could not possibly go unnoticed by us, could it?

 

As it is, my ear is always tuned in to here a political figure use the P&S expression.  Biden, in his Oval Office speech yesterday, used those very words at 5:16. 

 

I also remember that scripture isn't fully understood until it's Jehovah's time for it to be understood.  As brother Herd said, we may read the scripture many times, but not fully understand until Jehovah "puts a light on it".

 

One more thought:  The GT actually begins with the sudden destruction of BtG.  Not with the fulfillment of 1 Thes. 5:3.

So, what purpose is served by the prophesy?  Especially if it might not even be realized that it has been accomplished in real time?