Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[Ludwika]

15 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

 Look in the past publications and see how we viewed different times were are living in. Take for instance, we were taught in the past that those who were around 1914 would see the end, but 11-1-95 WT clarified this. Sad to say several friends have left the truth because of this.

That's true. And it's because they didn't look at what the Bible itself says: the light of understanding would get brighter. So they lost faith in Jehovah's promises, which means they lost faith in Jehovah himself. Not for nothing did Jesus say " the one who has endured to the end will be saved".

[New World Explorer]

1 minute ago, Dustparticle said:

 My point is stick to the current publications and we should add speculations that can lead to disappointment. 

I have quoted recent publication, June 2023. So I have no idea 🤷‍♂️ where you going with it. 

[Áine]

54 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

 My point is stick to the current publications and we should add speculations that can lead to disappointment. 

We have had no further updated understanding and so we stick to the slave, we simply have no idea on P&S will it be one event or a series… or will the UN be given teeth that will also cause the sayings 

 

We simply do not know. 

[Áine]

2 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

 Here is my point, for many years I have seen many peace agreements on the news and many friends have jump the ball on this saying P&S!!, P&S!! and this is not the event foretold in the Bible.
 

I’m not saying it not wrong to keep on the watch of world events, yet our heads can be in the sand when we jump ahead on certain events that is not in the Bible and that is why we need clarifications at times to readjustment on certain scriptures.

Here is my point… I have been in the truth for over fifty years and have seen many changes

 

 However our thinking on P&S has not changed… why do you say that it’s not in the Bible? 1Thes 5:3 

[LeolaRootStew]

I think it's all but useless to look for P&S now that we are expecting the UN to get sudden power. If the cry happens before the UN gets power we won't know it's the "real" cry until the UN gets power; if the cry happens after the UN gets power we'll be ready for it because the more obvious sign has already happened. 

 

Either way, I'm looking for the UN to get power; I'm not really giving any attention at all to the cry of P&S anymore.

[Dustparticle]

3 hours ago, Áine said:

Here is my point… I have been in the truth for over fifty years and have seen many changes

 

 However our thinking on P&S has not changed… why do you say that it’s not in the Bible? 1Thes 5:3 

 
I been in the truth around 50 years too and  most of the time when P&S is mention on the news some says this is it, but it is not. That is my point.

[Dustparticle]

4 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

I have quoted recent publication, June 2023. So I have no idea 🤷‍♂️ where you going with it. 

In all, my point is when Jesus prophesied about the events in the last days, these events would tell us the end is near. What I have seen  through the years, some thinks the end is here!
 

 Some have taken’ the Bible, it’s publications, dramas, and events and twisted around and try to interpret as to say the sky is falling. That is my whole point.

Edited Tuesday at 04:29 AM by Dustparticle

[Ahuvah]

6 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

In all, my point is when Jesus prophesied about the events in the last days, these events would tell us the end is near, yet some thinks the end is here! I have seen this through the years.

Oh dear dear Dusty, what you say in essence, is true.

 

And we do indeed proudly belong to an imperfect organization full of imperfect men and women who desire this dirty system to leave and are eager to welcome in the new world.  Even Jesus apostles wrongly thought Jesus was going to restore the kingdom at that time.

 

Where there is leeway for speculation or imagination as this thread opens up, there is certainly room for saying the end is here. Now, here might be a few years away yet, but it's here, in our lifetimes. 

 

Our lovely Aine was not wandering into 'No Man's Land' ... she is merely noting, as we all are, and as Jesus did, the signs and seasons of the time we live in. What we witness today, may not fulfill specific prophecy about Peace and Security, but it certainly is creating the right environment for us to see that prophecy is about to take place.

 

I know you mean well Dusty, you are truly a sweet kind brother. But sometimes when we (I've done it too) tell someone they can't speak on an unclarified matter, it mutes others freeness of speech. 

 

This thread promotes a little speculation as long as it doesn't encroach on already clarified matters.

 I don't have any chocolate to offer you today. Oh yes I do! Four squares of fruit and nut! 😄 

 

[New World Explorer]

2 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

In all, my point is when Jesus prophesied about the events in the last days, these events would tell us the end is near. What I have seen  through the years, some thinks the end is here!
 

 Some have taken’ the Bible, it’s publications, dramas, and events and twisted around and try to interpret as to say the sky is falling. That is my whole point.

Here is something to consider: Some of Jehovah’s servants have been waiting for the end of this system of things for a long time. From a human standpoint, the fulfillment of God’s promise might seem to be delaying. Jehovah addressed that concern when he assured the prophet Habakkuk: “The vision is yet for its appointed time, and it is rushing toward its end, and it will not lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it! For it will without fail come true. It will not be late!” (Hab. 2:3) Did God provide that assurance for the benefit of Habakkuk only? Or do His words have meaning for us today? Under inspiration, the apostle Paul applied those words to Christians, who are in expectation of the new world. (Read Hebrews 10:36, 37.) Yes, we can be sure that even if our promised deliverance seems to delay, “it will without fail come true. It will not be late!”
17 Many servants of Jehovah have applied Jehovah’s counsel to “keep in expectation”—even for decades. Louise, for example, began serving Jehovah in 1939. She says: “At that time, I thought Armageddon would come before I finished high school. That didn’t happen. Over the years, I found it helpful to read what I call ‘the waiting accounts’—the Bible narratives of Noah, Abraham, Joseph, and others who had to wait a long time before receiving the promised reward from Jehovah. Remaining in expectation has kept me and others focused on the certainty of the nearness of the new world.” Many other longtime worshippers of Jehovah agree! W23 April

 

Remaining in expectation is healthy my brother. Nobody, absolutely nobody posted anything here saying ... This is it!

Can you point me to a post where a member says.. This is it? If not ..perhaps you're overacting? 

[Áine]

2 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

In all, my point is when Jesus prophesied about the events in the last days, these events would tell us the end is near. What I have seen  through the years, some thinks the end is here!
 

 Some have taken’ the Bible, it’s publications, dramas, and events and twisted around and try to interpret as to say the sky is falling. That is my whole point.

This thread is called peace and security… we know as the slave has said that events could happen one after the other even one event causing the other!

 

 The fact is they don’t know either and because of this we cannot rule out hearing peace and security at some point during the GT

 

 All I was simply saying Dusty is that all of these events lead to the great tribulation and that is why we keep on the watch… as do the slave, we even have regular articles on the website labelled keep on the watch

[Áine]

2 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

In all, my point is when Jesus prophesied about the events in the last days, these events would tell us the end is near. What I have seen  through the years, some thinks the end is here!
 

 Some have taken’ the Bible, it’s publications, dramas, and events and twisted around and try to interpret as to say the sky is falling. That is my whole point.

Oh boy…. No one twists things around, I wasn’t twisting things

 

 Please be kind. 

[Áine]

Bro Myers puts it much better than I can… 

yes it will start with the destruction of BTG but we still are very much aware of peace and security

 

 At the moment Mr Trump is on a life’s mission to bully every country to obtain it… it may come to nothing who knows but it’s still relevant and interesting. 
https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&lank=pub-jwb-086_9_VIDEO

[Michał]

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

I think it's all but useless to look for P&S now that we are expecting the UN to get sudden power. If the cry happens before the UN gets power we won't know it's the "real" cry until the UN gets power; if the cry happens after the UN gets power we'll be ready for it because the more obvious sign has already happened. 

 

Either way, I'm looking for the UN to get power; I'm not really giving any attention at all to the cry of P&S anymore.

rxacyly! Based on recent AM and unless clarified otherwise I’m waiting for UN getting power from world countries (Spoiler alert: it can be so sudden we won’t be able to post a comment on this forum in time 😆)

[Dustparticle]

5 hours ago, Áine said:

This thread is called peace and security… we know as the slave has said that events could happen one after the other even one event causing the other!

 

 The fact is they don’t know either and because of this we cannot rule out hearing peace and security at some point during the GT

 

 All I was simply saying Dusty is that all of these events lead to the great tribulation and that is why we keep on the watch… as do the slave, we even have regular articles on the website labelled keep on the watch

All good points sis, my point is that friends need lay off of events that rush them of thinking the end is here or tomorrow.

[Dustparticle]

5 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

Can you point me to a post where a member says.. This is it? If not ..perhaps you're overacting? 

 I do not need to do this and you can decide for yourself of one’s comments. I give example in my congregation. If I’m right while ago, there was a drama about last days. An elder and his wife thought …This is it!. They thought about a year later the end will come. I wonder how many thought the end will come soon when Covid - 19 started?

 

 My point is you can see this rushing to the end theory in your own congregation and other congregations as well too.

[Brother_Bliss]

8 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

 
I been in the truth around 50 years too and  most of the time when P&S is mention on the news some says this is it, but it is not. That is my point.

 

Oh I see this all the time myself among certain individual brothers or sisters in my congregation. Whenever a past president uttered the words "peace and security" there was bound to be somebody getting all excited and giddy. 

 

Even online, some brothers and sisters will start circulating or posting a video clip of that political figure trying the words, complete with a scriptural reference and some dramatic music. I should have saved them, as it would be fun to show them off right now. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden - I think they've all said it. I fathom this happens in other countries as well.

 

What we do know according to the apostle Paul is that we 'will not be in darkness' and that it won't 'overtake us like thieves' of we have spiritual insight (1 Thess 5:4). In other words, the declaration of "peace and security" that we are waiting for will be blaringly obvious to us. It'll be unlike any one-off reference like before. 

 

When we hear the term "a declaration of peace and security" we immediately think of a single event, major act, and so we've often interpreted this to mean all the nations (or "all" the nations as represented by the UN) declaring some sort of victory. "Look, we've achieved peace!". And maybe that's true. It will be false, but that won't stop it from being "declared".

 

But there Bible doesn't exactly say there will be a "declaration of peace and security". Paul says "whenever it is they are saying..." which is an action in progress, not complete. That's why I personally speculate that it will be something said and repeated constantly, maybe even daily for weeks or months. It might be a campaign or an effort being championed to hopefully bring "peace and security" as the end result. 

 

It has to be loud and obvious (and maybe repetitive) if we are not going"to be in darkness" about it. We will understand what's really happening. The world on the other hand will be sucking up the propaganda and falling for it. 

 

However this prophecy is fulfilled is fine with me. But yes when I see a president utter the words "peace and security" and then watch a particular brother or sister get all giddy giddy, I try to remind them to not get too excited just yet, but commend them for keeping on the watch.

[ChrisW]

11 minutes ago, Brother_Bliss said:

However this prophecy is fulfilled is fine with me. But yes when I see a president utter the words "peace and security" and then watch a particular brother or sister get all giddy giddy, I try to remind them to not get too excited just yet, but commend them for keeping on the watch.

Definitely agree.  I know I've even heard that some things will be more obvious after a distance of time of the event. The cry of Peace and Security is not what I'm really watching for. I'm looking for the UN getting their power and the fall of Babylon the Great.  Men use the words Peace and Security so often that it's not an obvious side effect of the end to me. 

[trottigy]

8 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

In all, my point is when Jesus prophesied about the events in the last days, these events would tell us the end is near. What I have seen  through the years, some thinks the end is here!
 

 Some have taken’ the Bible, it’s publications, dramas, and events and twisted around and try to interpret as to say the sky is falling. That is my whole point.

 

 

390 pages of that here .....

 

As you said, "just stick to our current publications. We don't need to speculate."

 

When I see something on JW.org that says , "this is it!" then I'll start to get excited.

Edited Tuesday at 01:21 PM by trottigy

[Dolce vita]

I am not participating in the debate because of all the above, I am thinking that we should not scrutinize every detail with a magnifying glass and shudder as if this were exactly the sign we were waiting for. However, I don't really know why, when I read comments that are enthusiastic about what seems to fulfill the prophecy, far from irritating me as Brother Sanderson just explained to us at the graduation ceremony, well these comments that are far from what I can think touch me nonetheless, comfort me and even stimulate me. As long as this shudder does not affect the courage, the endurance or the bond that unites our friends to Jehovah, why would it be wrong? On the other hand, if it affects the spirituality, then we must urgently examine our motives, the reasons why we serve Jehovah. Events have nothing to do with it.

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, Brother_Bliss said:

 

Oh I see this all the time myself among certain individual brothers or sisters in my congregation. Whenever a past president uttered the words "peace and security" there was bound to be somebody getting all excited and giddy. 

 

Even online, some brothers and sisters will start circulating or posting a video clip of that political figure trying the words, complete with a scriptural reference and some dramatic music. I should have saved them, as it would be fun to show them off right now. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden - I think they've all said it. I fathom this happens in other countries as well.

 

What we do know according to the apostle Paul is that we 'will not be in darkness' and that it won't 'overtake us like thieves' of we have spiritual insight (1 Thess 5:4). In other words, the declaration of "peace and security" that we are waiting for will be blaringly obvious to us. It'll be unlike any one-off reference like before. 

 

When we hear the term "a declaration of peace and security" we immediately think of a single event, major act, and so we've often interpreted this to mean all the nations (or "all" the nations as represented by the UN) declaring some sort of victory. "Look, we've achieved peace!". And maybe that's true. It will be false, but that won't stop it from being "declared".

 

But there Bible doesn't exactly say there will be a "declaration of peace and security". Paul says "whenever it is they are saying..." which is an action in progress, not complete. That's why I personally speculate that it will be something said and repeated constantly, maybe even daily for weeks or months. It might be a campaign or an effort being championed to hopefully bring "peace and security" as the end result. 

 

It has to be loud and obvious (and maybe repetitive) if we are not going"to be in darkness" about it. We will understand what's really happening. The world on the other hand will be sucking up the propaganda and falling for it. 

 

However this prophecy is fulfilled is fine with me. But yes when I see a president utter the words "peace and security" and then watch a particular brother or sister get all giddy giddy, I try to remind them to not get too excited just yet, but commend them for keeping on the watch.

It's interesting to google "peace and security'. That expression has been used around the world for years in many ways. 

[LeolaRootStew]

7 hours ago, Áine said:

This thread is called peace and security… we know as the slave has said that events could happen one after the other even one event causing the other!

 

 The fact is they don’t know either and because of this we cannot rule out hearing peace and security at some point during the GT

 

 All I was simply saying Dusty is that all of these events lead to the great tribulation and that is why we keep on the watch… as do the slave, we even have regular articles on the website labelled keep on the watch

 

Sure, but it won't be the cry because the cry immediately precedes the destruction of BtG, which is the start of the GT.

[Doug]

14 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

If the cry happens before the UN gets power we won't know it's the "real" cry until the UN gets power; if the cry happens after the UN gets power we'll be ready for it because the more obvious sign has already happened. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

Sure, but it won't be the cry because the cry immediately precedes the destruction of BtG, which is the start of the GT.

 

So, two things will happen before BtG is destroyed.  But we possibly won't be certain of the fulfillment of 1 Thess 5:3 until the fulfillment of Rev. 17:17.

And there's the possibility that P&S follows Rev. 17:17.

 

It seems that those two prophesies will be fulfilled concurrently or in quick succession.

[ChrisC]

I was reading yesterday about Elon Musk’s recent rush to build a super-duper computer for his AI ambitions. He has named his computer Colossus, after the movie: Colossus: The Forbin Project.

 

Movie spoiler:

Spoiler

No doubt this is tongue-in-cheek (having just watched the movie), but wouldn’t it be funny/weird if it were super-AI computers that declared P&S!

 

I wonder how far this AI madness will go. If it will be seen as some ‘Tower of Babel’ to protect mankind from destruction (from themselves, or God). ‘Mankind can’t direct their own steps, but maybe computers can do it!’

 

Ironically, AI itself requires huge amounts of energy - which is currently harming the planet.

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Doug said:

 

 

 

So, two things will happen before BtG is destroyed.  But we possibly won't be certain of the fulfillment of 1 Thess 5:3 until the fulfillment of Rev. 17:17.

And there's the possibility that P&S follows Rev. 17:17.

 

It seems that those two prophesies will be fulfilled concurrently or in quick succession.

 

Not sure what the disagreement is.

[New World Explorer]

7 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

All good points sis, my point is that friends need lay off of events that rush them of thinking the end is here or tomorrow.

Once again, where did you see such claim on the forum? Please.