“They” Used as a Neutral Pronoun

[Romain]

I live in France and I am currently studying the English language and the culture and History of English-speaking countries (UK and USA mainly) in the course of my further studies. 

 

I had few, well none actually, opportunities to visit any English-speaking country to actually practice my English and hear with my own ears the actual usage of the language. 

 

I’ve always wondered if the pronoun “they” was used in a neutral way when referring to one particular person whose gender is unknown among JWs too?

 

For exemple saying “Someone left their bag there.” Instead of “Someone left his bag there.”

 

It's the sort of debate that's quite common in France since French is a gendered language and we have this infamous rule basically saying that masculine takes over in such cases when we don’t know the gender of someone we're talking about. Or when there is at least one male in a group, the whole group will be referred to with masculine pronouns.

 

So I was wondering how this is considered in English and mostly what JWs whose native language is English think of this and actually say.

 

Hoping I am in the good part of the forum, I see that as linguistics and science of language...

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Romain

[Romain]

3 minutes ago, Romain said:

this infamous rule basically saying that masculine takes over in such cases when we don’t know the gender of someone we're talking about. Or when there is at least one male in a group, the whole group will be referred to with masculine pronouns.

Which, to make this clearer, is how we get neutral in French, but not everyone sees it like that since the masculine is used in neutral contexts.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Romain

[Qapla]

10 minutes ago, Romain said:

For exemple saying “Someone left their bag there.” Instead of “Someone left his bag there.”

 

In the example you have given, there is no gender indicated and can apply to either. It is not used this way to indicate a person who does not identify with a gender (as in claims to be "binary") it is simply to indicate that the speaker does not know the gender of the person.

 

Using "they" in this way is not part of the new "gender culture" where using they is to indicate non-gender identity that some claim, just a normal part of speech when one does not know the gender of the person in question.

 

I hope this helps. These things can be hard to understand for someone who is not a native English speaker.

 

 

[Dages]

In French, it's not his or her bag. 

Bag (sac) is masculine so it with always be "son" (masculine) bag.

 

Objects have genders, and it's funny, because beard (barbe) is feminine but bras (soutien-gorge) are masculine.

[MullumMiss]

English is a funny language really.  Even the 2 different “there” and “their”.  Using either is specific to the context and nothing to do with gender.  Their bag means it belongs to a person.  The bag there means it is just a bag.  We also have many words spelt differently with different meanings but pronounced the same.  eg fare/fair, tear/tare, really/rarely, bear/beer.  It is an inconsistent language and I cannot imagine someone learning it in a non english speaking environment.  

Over 50 years ago I took French language in school for 2 years and I vaguely remember the application of genders to words.  

[Hope]

3 hours ago, MullumMiss said:

English is a funny language really.  Even the 2 different “there” and “their”.  Using either is specific to the context and nothing to do with gender.  Their bag means it belongs to a person.  The bag there means it is just a bag.  We also have many words spelt differently with different meanings but pronounced the same.  eg fare/fair, tear/tare, really/rarely, bear/beer.  It is an inconsistent language and I cannot imagine someone learning it in a non english speaking environment.  

Over 50 years ago I took French language in school for 2 years and I vaguely remember the application of genders to words.  

English is funny depending on region/accent, too.

 

In America, bear/beer and really/rarely are not pronounced the same at all. Although- I can definitely hear Australian when I pronounce them the same way.. 😉😃

[Paul s]

We have a sister in our congregation whose first language isn't English and she often misses the subtle parts of the language. In Britain especially we use very subtle expressions to joke with each other which if you're not a native speaker can be very hard to pick up on

[careful]

this makes me think of a return visit i went on today....wasnt sure if "sam" was male or female so i was gonna say..."is sam  home?"   if they said no i wanted to be careful not to say,,,,"when will she be home?"   or,,,,,"whats a better day to catch him?"   Life is complicated now days....

[jps]

swedish is even worse,

 

jag träffade några vänner igår

(i met some friends yesterday)

 

hur många?

(how many?)

 

3 stycken

(3 pieces)

[SteveAus]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:17 AM, Hope said:

English is funny depending on region/accent, too.

 

In America, bear/beer and really/rarely are not pronounced the same at all. Although- I can definitely hear Australian when I pronounce them the same way.. 😉😃

 

I'm Aussie, and the only words I've heard pronounced the same out of those mentioned are 'fare/fair' & 'tear/tare'. To further confuse, 'tear' is as in tearing a page out of a book, not to be confused with 'tear' as a "tear in their eye".

I've never heard 'really/rarely' or 'bear/beer' pronounced the same or similar, unless it's a New Zealander speaking  

[Dolce vita]

On 7/16/2023 at 9:33 PM, Dages said:

In French, it's not his or her bag. 

Bag (sac) is masculine so it with always be "son" (masculine) bag.

 

Objects have genders, and it's funny, because beard (barbe) is feminine but bras (soutien-gorge) are masculine.

Tu m'as fait rire, David😊

[Dolce vita]

This thread is very funny. With the confusion of languages at Babel, Jehovah still wanted to preserve a little humor in the story. How nice.