Immigration enforcement and JW's

[Qapla]

We may need to broaden our scope - we might ask ourselves

 

Would it bother us to go in service with someone:

• Who is in the country illegally
• Who works in a store that sell tobacco
• Who works in a store that sells lottery tickets
• That does maid/maintenance work in a hotel that has a casino
• That does not always drive within the speed limit
• Who stops with their front tires on the white stop-bar at a traffic light
• Who may cross the street without using the crosswalk
• That we don't know if they were 100% accurate on their taxes
• Who has an above ground pool in their back yard but didn't have a permit to assemble it
• Who is a police officer

The questions could be never ending ... and we all have our own ideas on what we like/dislike

 

[Hope]

25 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

It would bother my conscience to work with someone in the Ministry who was here illegally. I don't know how to reconcile lawlessness with preaching about God's standards.

 

That's probably why such situations are generally kept private; "need to know" basis. There's a LOT we don't know about each other that if we knew, might make others very uncomfortable.  Jehovah will sort us all out.. 😕 

Edited 14 hours ago by Hope

[LeolaRootStew]

2 minutes ago, Qapla said:

We may need to broaden our scope - we might ask ourselves

 

Would it bother us to go in service with someone:

• Who is in the country illegally
• Who works in a store that sell tobacco
• Who works in a store that sells lottery tickets
• That does maid/maintenance work in a hotel that has a casino
• That does not always drive within the speed limit
• Who stops with their front tires on the white stop-bar at a traffic light
• Who may cross the street without using the crosswalk
• That we don't know if they were 100% accurate on their taxes
• Who has an above ground pool in their back yard but didn't have a permit to assemble it
• Who is a police officer

The questions could be never ending ... and we all have our own ideas on what we like/dislike

 

 

only one of those is a crime, but my answer to some of those is "it might".

[Hope]

3 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

only one of those is a crime, but my answer to some of those is "it might".

 

Not counting being illegal, you can get a ticket (read: crime) for at least four of those things. And possibly go to jail for one, as well.

[Qapla]

4 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

only one of those is a crime

 

Which "one" of these is a crime?

 

Who is in the country illegally

That does not always drive within the speed limit

Who stops with their front tires on the white stop-bar at a traffic light
Who may cross the street without using the crosswalk
That we don't know if they were 100% accurate on their taxes
Who has an above ground pool in their back yard but didn't have a permit to assemble it

 

As far as I understand, they are all crimes - since they are all illegal.

 

[LeolaRootStew]

15 minutes ago, Qapla said:

 

Which "one" of these is a crime?

 

Who is in the country illegally

That does not always drive within the speed limit

Who stops with their front tires on the white stop-bar at a traffic light
Who may cross the street without using the crosswalk
That we don't know if they were 100% accurate on their taxes
Who has an above ground pool in their back yard but didn't have a permit to assemble it

 

As far as I understand, they are all crimes - since they are all illegal.

 

 

A momentary lapse in judgement is not the same as a daily commitment to continue being illegal, and I already said some of those things on the list would make me uncomfortable so I don't understand your point.

[LeolaRootStew]

20 minutes ago, Hope said:

 

Not counting being illegal, you can get a ticket (read: crime) for at least four of those things. And possibly go to jail for one, as well.

 

Tickets are for infractions which usually result in a fine, not crimes that lead to jail-time. On the other hand, crossing the border illegally is a crime. If I knew of a brother who stole from a store or was bragging about cheating on his taxes (other actual crimes) I would for sure not feel comfortable working with him in the Ministry and I would even question if he should be allowed in the Ministry.

[trottigy]

Today is tax day!!  YAY!!  ( 😉 NOT!)

 

I personally don't go around asking people if they did their taxes and if they were honest. I don't ask people about their business practices and if they are maintaining their proper insurance, etc. I don’t get involved/ ask about a couple’s “marital due” and if they are adhering to the right Bible principles. I also don't ask people about their immigration status.

 

So yeah - I suppose on a lot of things I am a don't ask -> don't tell.

[Qapla]

26 minutes ago, trottigy said:

Today is tax day!!  YAY!

 

Florida taxpayers have an automatic extension until May 1, 2025

 

[LeolaRootStew]

26 minutes ago, trottigy said:

Today is tax day!!  YAY!!  ( 😉 NOT!)

 

I personally don't go around asking people if they did their taxes and if they were honest. I don't ask people about their business practices and if they are maintaining their proper insurance, etc. I don’t get involved/ ask about a couple’s “marital due” and if they are adhering to the right Bible principles. I also don't ask people about their immigration status.

 

So yeah - I suppose on a lot of things I am a don't ask -> don't tell.

 

but if i knew...it would be a factor

[trottigy]

10 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

but if i knew...it would be a factor

 

Be glad you're not an accountant who helps your fellow JWs out with their taxes.

[Hope]

21 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

but if i knew...it would be a factor

 

Jehovah knows that about us. That's why 1 Thess. 4:11 will be applicable in nearly any situation we can imagine. ❤️ 

[Shawnster]

Amazing how Satan uses the news and politics to stir us up. This conversation would never have happened just a few years ago. Look at the number of people in this conversation who had no idea and cannot comprehend the situation. 

 

This possibility would simply never have crossed our mind if it wasn't for the politics and the news spin. Yet now there is potential to divide the congregation. 

[Hope]

It's been a quiet topic of conversation in every congregation I've ever attended that has a foreign language group/congregation sharing our Hall. Particularly Spanish... but there are a lot of refugees in the US. Detroit has a massive Arabic population that are probably even more targeted.

 

It's not new or uncommon. Maybe it depends on where we live? We're just talking about it here now. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Hope

[LeolaRootStew]

I remember talking about it years ago because my old congregation struggled to keep the Spanish group going because so many of them were illegals who went home because of their consciences. I thought that was standard procedure until recently.

[Tortuga]

23 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

I remember talking about it years ago because my old congregation struggled to keep the Spanish group going because so many of them were illegals who went home because of their consciences. I thought that was standard procedure until recently.

Personal circumstance vary. The Branch refers to them as "undocumented" Is 'undocumented' and 'illegal' the same thing? Do we threat them the same way?

[LeolaRootStew]

Just now, Tortuga said:

Personal circumstance vary. The Branch refers to them as "undocumented" Is 'undocumented' and 'illegal' the same thing? Do we threat them the same way?

 

...yes?

[Shawnster]

4 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Personal circumstance vary. The Branch refers to them as "undocumented" Is 'undocumented' and 'illegal' the same thing? Do we threat them the same way?

We should never threat our brothers and sisters 

 

Yes, undocumented and illegal are the same as far as I can tell. To be in this (or any) country legally, one must have documentation. Those born here have a birth certificate. Those who are citizens of other countries have passports or visas. 

 

[Tortuga]

1 minute ago, Shawnster said:

We should never threat our brothers and sisters 

Spelling is hard..

[Esined]

Immigration law and processes change frequently, are super complicated to navigate and it is much more common than you think for people to become undocumented unintentionally due to misunderstandings or “time and unforeseen occurence.” Someone who overstays their visa due to circumstances, doesn’t receive a notice in the mail on time, who has to miss an appointment for reasons outside their control, or whose case is mismanaged by the government itself can end up undocumented and in limbo for years.
 

That is NOT considered a crime. It’s a civil violation. But many people see it differently because immigration has become highly politicized in the U.S.
 

Have you ever known anyone who prepares food out of their home and sells it as an informal business or side hustle? I have known lots of Witnesses who do this. That is also a civil violation in the U.S. because all small food businesses, even home-based ones, are supposed to have permits and follow certain laws and ordinances.
 

I have been close to several brothers and sisters who don’t have papers and it really can put them in an impossible situation. They face a lot of challenges here and live with a lot of fear. Some people don’t have a home or job or family to return to and just don’t have the money for the enormous expense of moving to another country. For some people leaving would mean abandoning forever children born in the U.S. or a marriage mate they met in the U.S. How can someone make that choice in good conscience? I also knew friends who came illegally before they came into the truth. Many people were misinformed or given the wrong expectations. This terrible system puts people in all kinds of terrible situations. 
 

For a lot of people, going home is just not an option. So it’s something that it’s impossible to be dogmatic about. 30 years ago I knew a sister who had to go back to her home country and then be sponsored by someone in the U.S. to come back legally and made big sacrifices to do that. But in this climate it is difficult to see that being possible anymore. Others have to remain undocumented in the US and work with a lawyer or legal services here in the U.S. until they can get their status straightened out, which can take years. In the meantime they still pay Caesar’s things to Caesar by paying taxes, obeying the law and being a good citizen like all of us do.

Edited 11 hours ago by Esined

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Esined said:

Others have to remain undocumented in the US and work with a lawyer or legal services here in the U.S. until they can get their status straightened out, which can take years.

 

I am not complaining about people who are clearly trying to do the right thing; there are many empathetic circumstances that people fall into through no fault of their own or through past mistakes that they now regret. I get that. But if someone is flagrantly disobeying the law after choosing a wrong course, and they take no steps to remedy it, I would have a hard time working with them because 1) they committed a crime by entering the country illegally and 2) they compound it every day by doing nothing to fix it. The new law requires that they register - that would be a good opportunity to show that they are compliant with the law.

 

As far as FS, I don't know how I could look a householder in the eye and explain that it's okay for this particular Witness to willfully break the law, while also claiming JWs are law-abiding citizens. If they had some trouble with paperwork being filed on time that would be a simple and easy explanation, but willful disobedience to the law because of convenience? I just can't justify that to anyone unless they are at least attempting to remedy the situation and I'm not sure how anyone else does.

[franceml]

Well... I have meditate many times about the scripture about Romans 13. This words were written when our Kingdom and King were not yet established... Do you think it will be possible that in some aspects  the meaning of "the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God" will be different in God´s eyes in our days,  the last days of this system of things? .... Imagine the police comes into our Kingdom Halls, the persecution in the Kingdom Hall will not be a confrontation with our constitutional right to our religious freedom? .... 

 

[Cool.As.Ice]

Side point:

 

Who knew that man-made artificial lines, drawn up by aloof, aristocratic bureaucrats in a dusty little office, would cause so much pain and trouble?

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Cool.As.Ice
Erased double post

[Shawnster]

4 hours ago, Cool.As.Ice said:

Side point:

 

Who knew that man-made artificial lines, drawn up by aloof, aristocratic bureaucrats in a dusty little office, would cause so much pain and trouble?

 

Satan. 

 

He also did this on a large scale. A lot of the trouble in the Middle East has been stirred up by "aloof, aristocratic bureaucrats in a dusty little office drawing lines" that created national borders after WWI. 

 

Same thing here. 

Edited 51 minutes ago by Shawnster

[Witness1970]

12 hours ago, trottigy said:

Today is tax day!!

I had a little problem getting my taxes filled out properly this year.  I didn't get my refund until February 20.  I could have gotten it a couple of weeks earlier.  I get direct deposit, so it doesn't take long.  I had the numbers ready in mid-January, but couldn't file until late January.