"Critical Times" by EK Johnathan (SPOILERS)

[Shawnster]

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

And we'll know "the declaration of Peace AND Security" has happened for sure as INSTANTLY after (according to 1 These 5:3) False Religion will be fully attacked. This is also the part I found odd in the book. He describes it as a slow and gradual thing - instead of an instant thing - as the Bible describes. 

 

Anyway, still a fun read. Interesting the way they had to obey - even though doing so seemed crazy. Also, how they had to leave everything. I can totally picture that. 

 

Another area we disagree on.   Or maybe not. 

 

You seem to imply the attack on false religion will be all over the world and all complete at the same time.   I think there is enough wiggle room for the attack on false religion to be more gradual than that and still be considered instant from a biblical perspective. 

 

Actually I think the attack on religion moves too fast in the book. 

 

We look back on a lot of events and marvel how fast they happen even when the reality is they took months or more. 

 

After 6000 years taking say 14 months to destroy religion could be considered instant. 

[trottigy]

5 hours ago, Shawnster said:

 

Another area we disagree on.   Or maybe not. 

 

You seem to imply the attack on false religion will be all over the world and all complete at the same time.   I think there is enough wiggle room for the attack on false religion to be more gradual than that and still be considered instant from a biblical perspective. 

 

Actually I think the attack on religion moves too fast in the book. 

 

We look back on a lot of events and marvel how fast they happen even when the reality is they took months or more. 

 

After 6000 years taking say 14 months to destroy religion could be considered instant. 

Seem to imply?

 

All I did was quote 1 Thess 5:3. 

 

 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them,+ just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. 

 

This verse uses both the words "sudden" and "instantly". (Note how these 2 words are in italics in the quote below)

 

The Slave has consistently taught us -it will be sudden and global. We see this again in our most recent publication that speaks of it - the Kingdom Rules bk chapter 21

 

5 Attack on religion. Recall that Paul wrote: “Whenever it is that they are saying, ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them.” Just as a flash of lightning is closely followed by the crash of thunder, so the time of saying “Peace and security!” will be instantly followed by “sudden destruction.” What will be destroyed? First, “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion, also known as “the prostitute.” (Rev. 17:5, 6, 15) This destruction of Christendom and all other false religious organizations forms the opening phase of the “great tribulation.” (Matt. 24:21; 2 Thess. 2:8) For many, this event will come as a surprise. Why? Because up to that point, the prostitute will think of herself as a “queen” who will “never see mourning.” But she will suddenly discover that her confidence is misplaced. She will be removed quickly, as if “in one day.”—Rev. 18:7, 8.

 

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014263#h=7:0-11:467

 

Doesn't this sound like Christendom (a global organization) will be "quickly removed" - as if in one day (maybe that one day is even literal).

 

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Edited December 7, 2016 by trottigy

[trottigy]

Rev 18: 9 And the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality* with her and lived with her in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her when they see the smoke from her burning. 10 They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city,+ Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

11 “Also, the merchants

 

 

Interesting, looking at Rev 18 where it talks of this I noticed that it is not ONLY the merchants who are sad to see her go, but also the political leaders.

 

Perhaps, they'll see their means of controlling the masses or at least getting them to adhere to some moral ethics is wiped out and people become even more unlawful. Maybe the "pause" after the opening phase allows some time for that unruliness to manifest? And the police and authorities lamant at how things have gotten worse AFTER religion has been removed?

 

This is what is great about books like this - it gets the mind meditating on how these things might play out and then us to talk about them.  

 

It keeps it all the more real.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by trottigy

[Shawnster]

Perhaps the global aspect of the attack does not come through strong enough.   The book is written from the US perspective and global events only get a brief sentence.   From the book it might look like the attack on religion comes from the US and not the UN.   

And that may be how it happens in real life with the average person thinking this attack is only in their country.   People already act like if it doesn't happen in their country then it isn't happening or they are so myopic they can only see what happens in their country. 

 

Global events may seem to get overshadowed by local events. 

[trottigy]

40 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

Perhaps the global aspect of the attack does not come through strong enough.   The book is written from the US perspective and global events only get a brief sentence.   From the book it might look like the attack on religion comes from the US and not the UN.   

And that may be how it happens in real life with the average person thinking this attack is only in their country.   People already act like if it doesn't happen in their country then it isn't happening or they are so myopic they can only see what happens in their country. 

 

Global events may seem to get overshadowed by local events. 

I thought the illustration the slave used for how fast was interesting,

 

Just as a flash of lightning is closely followed by the crash of thunder, so the time of saying “Peace and security!” will be instantly followed by “sudden destruction.” 

 

Isn't the global nature of these prophecies what we point to to show that they are different from other times in history?

Edited December 7, 2016 by trottigy

[Shawnster]

Yeah, but my point is will the people in the Untied States be concerned about the global ban on religion or will they be so consumed with their local ban on religion?  If/when we watch the news during this time, will it be dominated with global bans or the local/national ban?

 

Just because the book is focused on the events in the United States doesn't mean the same things aren't happening all around the world.  The book just feels like ti's only in the US because that's where it's set.  We're dealing with people in small-town America.  They are simply more focused on their local lives.  

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

 

 

Isn't the global nature of these prophecies what we point to to show that they are different from other times in history?

 

When we're in the middle of these global events, how different will our preaching be at that point?

[trottigy]

Oh, by book you mean the "Critical Times" book and not the "Kingdom Rules" book. I didn't get that at first, but now I see that was your point.

 

Yes, the ending clears that up. He did a great job. I do not write anywhere near as well as the author does.

[Shawnster]

Yeah, sorry.  Was referring to the novel we're discussing.

[trottigy]

27 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

  

 

When we're in the middle of these global events, how different will our preaching be at that point?

 

I believe the slave has said, then our message will be one of judgement instead of reconciliation.

 

In the book the talk about a scary video. Perhaps it will be something like that. I also liked the usage of tablets instead of literature -safer that way.

[Shawnster]

10 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

Yes, the ending clears that up. He did a great job. I do not write anywhere near as well as the author does.

Good.  I'm still pretty early in the book.  Friday, January 22.  Page 191.  

 

I think I'm a little disappointed that...

Spoiler

The excerpt on the webpage is from a chapter after Amy was hit by the car.  The online excerpt reveals that Eva is still alive.  Had I not read that online excerpt first, I would have had a much bigger surprise when I reach that chapter where Eva meets Luke in the parking garage.  I'm not there yet - almost.  So, I know the surprise is spoiled for me.  Oh well.  

 

11 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

I believe the slave has said, then our message will be one of judgement instead of reconciliation.

 

In the book the talk about a scary video. Perhaps it will be something like that. I also liked the usage of tablets instead of literature -safer that way.

 

I don't understand....

 

Spoiler

How mirror websites work.  I like the idea that the main website is down due to the branch being closed, but mirror websites keep popping up.  I don't understand how mirror websites work.  They need access to the entire database of the original site, don't they?  

 

[trottigy]

It's not difficult to make mirror sites. You can easily download an entire site and recreate it.

 

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-do-i-download-an-entire-website-for-offline-reading/

 

Then post it. This why we want to make sure ones use JW.org in a browser instead of these supposed apps that take you to JW.org. 

[Shawnster]

Hahaha!  

 

From the book.  Tuesday, January 26, 1:03PM Amy:

Spoiler

Quote

Jesse turns to his father and nods.
“You got rid of the beard,” Walter says, stroking his son’s cheek.
“Yeah, well, I figured they might not let me in here if I still had it. I
guess Witnesses still don’t do the beard thing, huh?”
“Not in this area, usually. I wonder if things will change after,
though. We’ll have to see. You looked handsome with a beard.”

 

Hahaha Beards are forbidden even during the Great Tribulation!  

 

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Shawnster

[Mykyl]

12 hours ago, trottigy said:

Rev 18: 9 And the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality* with her and lived with her in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her when they see the smoke from her burning. 10 They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city,+ Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

11 “Also, the merchants

 

 

Interesting, looking at Rev 18 where it talks of this I noticed that it is not ONLY the merchants who are sad to see her go, but also the political leaders.

 

Perhaps, they'll see their means of controlling the masses or at least getting them to adhere to some moral ethics is wiped out and people become even more unlawful. Maybe the "pause" after the opening phase allows some time for that unruliness to manifest? And the police and authorities lamant at how things have gotten worse AFTER religion has been removed?

 

This is what is great about books like this - it gets the mind meditating on how these things might play out and then us to talk about them.  

 

It keeps it all the more real.

 

 

 

This is one of the reasons I have wondered if, from a human point of view, the actual destruction of false religion was almost an accident. A loophole in some passed law or statement that causes a domino effect that was unforeseen.

I could never work out otherwise why they would be weeping if they meant to do it. Or like you say it could be that they realize what a big mistake it was in the aftermath.

[trottigy]

15 minutes ago, Mykyl said:

This is one of the reasons I have wondered if, from a human point of view, the actual destruction of false religion was almost an accident. A loophole in some passed law or statement that causes a domino effect that was unforeseen.

I could never work out otherwise why they would be weeping if they meant to do it. Or like you say it could be that they realize what a big mistake it was in the aftermath.

It always seemed to me, they do it intentionally (as God motivates them to carry out their own thoughts on this), but then they feel remorse after.

 

We see this often - people do something out of anger and then later regret what they did. We could see world rulers do the same. Thy rid the world of "religion" and then realize how much money and control they received from it. Maybe it has even helped people be as law abiding as they are. Then after they see how people become even more lawless and regret the extra energy and money needed to try and get law and order back. They might even think, "too bad she is gone and so quickly."

[Shawnster]

What Jerry said.  

 

There are plenty of examples where people meant to do something and then regretted it.  We even have the term "buyer's remorse" to describe it.  

 

On a national level... well, the United States passed the 18th Amendment prohibiting alcohol in the US.  They then turned around and passed the 21st Amendment repealing the 18th Amendment and making alcohol legal again.  

 

Then there are wars.  I suspect plenty of countries that lost wars regretted starting them.  

[carlos]

Besides, the ten horns destroy Babylon under the direction of the UN. But that doesn't mean that every government agrees completely with that action, maybe they are simply obeying orders.

[Shawnster]

Or some take credit for themselves.

[Dages]

On 07/12/2016 at 9:40 PM, Shawnster said:

Hahaha!  

 

From the book.  Tuesday, January 26, 1:03PM Amy:

  Hide contents

 

Hahaha Beards are forbidden even during the Great Tribulation!  

 

 

 

I was sure someone would post this

[hatcheckgirl]

Just finished it during my trains and bus connections around Japan. Overall, it was well-written and a believable scenario, except this:

 

Spoiler

Amy just woke up from a long coma, and she's 'with it' almost immediately. Chelsea, on the other hand, has significant brain damage, and is not able to be Amy's mentor anymore. I guess it helps with Amy's character growth.

 

But Luke takes too many hits from Meade (and others), and he keeps going, like a Hollywood hero. We do see obvious divine intervention, so it is not too much of a stretch, I guess.

 

But, and I know you need conflict and a villain for plot development, Meade is on a personal vendetta against Luke - this to me is too far a stretch. 

 

And I couldn't put the book down either. Not a good mix reading about the GT on vacation! Very distracting!

[carlos]

I had been avoiding this thread due to the spoilers, but this week I could at last read this book and really enjoyed it.

 

I missed some events that would have been interesting to explain: the proclamation of peace and security, the sign of the son of man and the anointed going home. Everybody acknowledging that it's Jehovah who brings Armageddon. I also imagine both the attack on Babylon the Great as somewhat more radical.

 

My favorite scene: The friends singing in the ship. It gave me goosebumps!

[CHecker]

I got all 3, ended up reading the last one first and enjoyed it so much I got the other 2. Read each one in a day and a half. So sad when they were done. Now have my daughter and BFF reading them. My BFF has a hard time visioning things. So reading these books helped her to 'see' what Jehovah has promised.

[Shawnster]

On 1/21/2017 at 1:06 PM, hatcheckgirl said:

Just finished it during my trains and bus connections around Japan. Overall, it was well-written and a believable scenario, except this:

 

  Hide contents

Amy just woke up from a long coma, and she's 'with it' almost immediately. Chelsea, on the other hand, has significant brain damage, and is not able to be Amy's mentor anymore. I guess it helps with Amy's character growth.

 

But Luke takes too many hits from Meade (and others), and he keeps going, like a Hollywood hero. We do see obvious divine intervention, so it is not too much of a stretch, I guess.

 

But, and I know you need conflict and a villain for plot development, Meade is on a personal vendetta against Luke - this to me is too far a stretch. 

 

 

 

I hear you and agree

 

Spoiler

I was thinking that same thing about Amy.  She took a licking and had to practically get carried out of the hospital.  Then she's fine.  It was a gloss over worthy of any Hollywood movie.  I didn't think about it with Luke but you are right.  Another example of our hero overcoming all his injuries.

 

[Shawnster]

On 2/1/2017 at 7:44 PM, carlos said:

I had been avoiding this thread due to the spoilers, but this week I could at last read this book and really enjoyed it.

 

I missed some events that would have been interesting to explain: the proclamation of peace and security, the sign of the son of man and the anointed going home. Everybody acknowledging that it's Jehovah who brings Armageddon. I also imagine both the attack on Babylon the Great as somewhat more radical.

 

My favorite scene: The friends singing in the ship. It gave me goosebumps!

 

I felt he did a good job with the Sign of the Son of Man in his first book.  Each of these books looks at the same events from different points of view.  It would be interesting to integrate Critical Times with All Things New into one cohesive book.

[Omoyeme]

After "Critical Times, the next book in sequential order is "The Unrighteous", correct?

[Hammerhead]

Wow....this was an awesome story

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