Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[Tortuga]

8 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

I consider this as an option also. Actually presenting a case to people worldwide how poisonous false religion is, and active obstacle for peace is a very valid argument. 

I understand what both of you are saying but it seems to me that banning religion would affect the world so much that no one would believe any declaration of P&S. It seems reasonable that something develops so that the world leaders and religious leaders believe there is, or will be P&S, and then the world leaders see religion as an obstacle to that P&S. Or they think they can manage by themselves and decide to get rid of religion. That is Satanic thinking...

Edited May 10 by Tortuga

[truce]

3 hours ago, BLEmom said:

What holds back human governments from achieving so many goals?  Selfishness mostly. Selfish for power, money and land. 
My thought is that at some point these leaders begin to all act on promises of cooperation and act unselfishly for a brief moment in time. In my mind, it has to be that big for even some true christians to get caught up in the hype. 
All leaders and governments will have to be willing to give up and make compromises all at the same time for some greater good. When you look at many of the leaders running for office it’s hard to imagine such acts of unselfishness. When you look at all the current issues:  terrorism, war, famine, pandemic, climate change…so far none of these have been able to stop the selfish desire enough to achieve unity. 
What could be the one thing that unites them?  What is bigger than what we see?
It’s going to be interesting to see what could be the catalyst for such a unique moment 

 I cherish your thoughts expressed here.  This accurately summarizes what  most likely will lead to the cry of peace and security. It may not be so much the world leaders saying they have achieved peace and security as it may be the masses who will champion the message that the leaders have brought about peace and security, and they will be moved to give their allegiance to the wild beast and the ten horns who will sudeenly realize that we do not need God or religion after all to bring about this peace and security because we already have an expression of God's Kingdom here on earth in the form of the United Nations. Perhaps the UN will declare that they have finally achieved their goal to bring about true peace and security and conditions on earth will make it seem so. It may well be that the United Nations will take on a much bigger role so that the ten horns are moved to give their loyalty, devotion and allegiance to the UN as the bringer of peace and security, the Messiah, the Kingdom of God on earth. As others have commented, it might be a scientific  or medical breakthrough, a modern miracle or series of signs and wonders achieved by the false prophet (the Anglo-American world power): maybe the cure for AIDS and cancer, AI progression, more clonings, maybe even a claim to prolonging human life, more economic and financial security, a global ceasefire, suddenly the world is a happy place, no discrimination, no homophobia, etc. There might be a relaxed, calm feeling around the world, a breath of fresh air at last, to the extent that some of us might be fooled. But it will only be a veneer, and a temporary one at that. In a nutshell, like you said, it will MOST DEFINITELY BE SOMETHING BIGGER THAN WHAT WE SEE. But regardless of whatever form or shape it will take, the people knowing their God and keeping on the watch will not be fooled. I pray to be among them. It won't be an easy time for those who know the truth. So much compromises to be faced with, including material ones. I believe the scripture talking about not being able to buy or sell except one has the mark will take on more meaning then. 

Edited May 11 by truce

[New World Explorer]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

I understand what both of you are saying but it seems to me that banning religion would affect the world so much that no one would believe any declaration of P&S.

In a "speculation" aspect of it ... that would actually remove "declaration" part, replacing it with "justification" for removal of BTG .. effectively saying we need to do this in order to have PS. 

Please note that we are "flying" high here with speculation. ☺️ 

[LeolaRootStew]

Don't take this too seriously, but have you guys heard of a conpiracy theory that an "ancient artifact" is going to be uncovered that will "discredit" all religions (and also prove aliens exist?). I suppose it could cause humanity to unify in a way they never have (and cry peace?) and also to want to end religion since it would seem fake. It would certainly be an interesting note to end this system on.

 

Edited May 11 by LeolaRootStew

[Tortuga]

1 minute ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Don't take this seriously, but have you guys heard of a conpiracy theory that an "ancient artifact" is going to be uncovered that will "discredit" all religions (and also prove aliens exist?). I suppose it could cause humanity to unify in a way they never have (and cry peace?) and also to want to end religion since it would seem fake. It would certainly be an interesting note to end this system on.

Aliens do exist. They are angelic creatures; some are good, and some are bad.

Just imagine if Jehovah has a set time that he will allow the demons to perform miracles. No telling what would happen...

[Hotteok]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

Aliens do exist. They are angelic creatures; some are good, and some are bad.

Just imagine if Jehovah has a set time that he will allow the demons to perform miracles. No telling what would happen...

I think they could code our reality into some nightmare.

[blue-jay]

OK, I have a question. 

In 1Thes 5:3, who is "they" and "them"?

Are they the same? How/why do we believe that?

Is the destruction the one of BtG? Are they then also the ones saying "p&s"?

I tried to explain it and got myself confused 😕 

 

Is the destruction it's talking about, the destruction of the whole system, not just BtG specifically?

Then why do we know that BtG is going down right after the proclamation? Because of the timeline in Revelation?

If there is an article logically explaining it, please guide me to it. 

Edited May 11 by blue-jay

[Richie]

11 minutes ago, blue-jay said:

OK, I have a question. 

In 1Thes 5:3, who is "they" and "them"?

Are they the same? How/why do we believe that?

Is the destruction the one of BtG? Are they then also the ones saying "p&s"?

I tried to explain it and got myself confused 😕 

 

Is the destruction it's talking about, the destruction of the whole system, not just BtG specifically?

Then why do we know that BtG is going down right after the proclamation? Because of the timeline in Revelation?

If there is an article logically explaining it, please guide me to it. 

Don't be confuse please. Let the basic teach you well to avoid misundertanding. Most of us just expressing the "what if" condition. Trying to figure out the probability. 

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, blue-jay said:

f there is an article logically explaining it, please guide me to it. 

The Study Note for I Thess 5:3 has a link to the Research Guide information about that scripture.

[daydream]

(1 Thessalonians 5:3)  Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=52005003&srcid=share

17 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Study Note

sudden destruction is to be instantly on them: Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of “peace and security” and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry. It will be sudden and inescapable. The Greek phrase contains two terms (rendered “sudden” and “be instantly on”) to emphasize the striking suddenness with which the destruction will come. A similar combination of terms appears at Lu 21:34, where the coming of Jehovah’s day is described.

[JennyM]

They aim to turn this ukraine peace deal into a global peace deal.

GROUND FOR PEACE TALK

[Sofia]

https://edition.cnn.com/weather/live-news/geomagnetic-solar-storm-northern-lights-05-10-24/h_41c2098e5ac5b6e2d571eabbc34dfc4b
 

Bellow photos taken in Portugal last night.

Though very beautiful these solar storms and magnetic field disturbance can create great havoc.

I can imagine during the GT this becoming very intense… no GPS signals… power plants down… communications down… the caos around the world at the same time.

 

There. Now I said it. 
This is in my opinion what maybe the fullfillment of Luke 21:25

[Lee49]

2 hours ago, Sofia said:

no GPS signals… power plants down… communications down… the caos around the world at the same time.

Kind of  like when the year 1999 rolled over to 2000 !  Planes were goining to be falling out of the sky as computers couldn't adjust to the zero year, everything run by computers was going be shutting down, confused!  Known as the Y2K problem - 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2000_problem

[LeolaRootStew]

I welcome any commentary on what I'm about to say. I'm trying to look at this with fresh eyes. 

 

I've been looking at 1Thessalonians, and Chapter 5 is talking about Jehovah's Day, which we identify as the destruction of Jerusalem (which was several decades in the future for Paul). Let's look closely at the verse:

 

Quote

 

Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them,c just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

 

It doesn't just say that destruction will be instant, it said it will be instant like birth pains. It's an analogy. Birth pains are the start of the process of giving birth. But to figure out what the scripture means we can look to Jerusalem.

 

I assume that when the Roman armies left Jerusalem that is when the residents cried P&S, but it took three and a half years for the actual destruction to come. The destruction itself wasn't promised to be "instant", the birth pains were. In the Jerusalem movie the couple that left slowly were robbed at the gate - that could have been the start of the birth pains. Things had changed and they would get more divisive and nationalistic with time until the destruction.

 

As the Study Bible says, P&S was the start of an "unstoppable process" that will end in their destruction. Since we already established that the cry of P&S and the actual destruction were years apart, can we really expect that BtG will be destroyed immediately or could it also take several years? Jerusalem had 3.5 years when they weren't literally surrounded by armies, then the Romans came back and sieged them for 6 months before they were officially destroyed. So the "sudden destruction" took about 4 years.

 

Events to take place:

-there will be an attack

-the attack stops.

-the cry of P&S

-"birth pains" begin  

-God's people flee to safety 

-(time passes)

-complete destruction

 

Does this mean that Religion will be attacked, then the attack will pause long enough for us to escape "to the mountains", then BtG rejoices and cries P&S, then after an unknown amount of time she will be destroyed?

 

P.S.

1Th 5:3 says that the one making the cry of P&S is the one who gets destroyed. Doesn't this mean we would assume BtG makes the cry of P&S since they are the ones who will be destroyed?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by LeolaRootStew

[IceBreeze]

20 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Tell me what you think.

Maybe it is interesting to take note that it does talk about “sudden” destruction. Something that strikes/hits “suddenly”, you know that it was about to come, but it still came “unexpected”. While “Instantly” does refer to “Immediately”.

 

Next they refer to the birth pains that a woman can experience. “Like” birth pains. So, they are saying that you can compare it with a woman having these pains. This woman knows after the first moment of pain that this process is unstoppable, the pain was for her the indicator that it started.

 

The woman knows that she should consult for medical help urgent, i.e. go to hospital. However the baby who is on its way can come after a couple of hours, the baby can come after a few minutes, or the baby even can come before this woman can enter the hospital.

All of a sudden, suddenly, immediately…      …she knows the baby is on the way, but the baby can still come unexpected. That is being referred to a process does not mean that it takes longer, or that it goes faster. The process takes the time needed for this event to happen.

[IceBreeze]

37 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Once the woman has experienced the very first labor pain, will she be able to claim that the baby will be born at 07:04 in the morning?

Edited May 11 by IceBreeze

[mjcabz]

https://www.dw.com/en/pope-declares-2025-holy-year/a-69039824

 

Pope declares 2025 "Holy Year"

 

 

[LeolaRootStew]

12 minutes ago, IceBreeze said:

Maybe it is interesting to take note that it does talk about “sudden” destruction. Something that strikes/hits “suddenly”, you know that it was about to come, but it still came “unexpected”. While “Instantly” does refer to “Immediately”.

 

But the primary fulfillment of the scripture was about the destruction of Jerusalem, which is something we can reference. It took about 4 years from their cry of P&S before the destruction came. Can we really say that the second fulfillment must be faster?

 

[Doug]

45 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

I welcome any commentary on what I'm about to say. I'm trying to look at this with fresh eyes. 

 

 But to figure out what the scripture means we can look to Jerusalem.

 

I assume that when the Roman armies left Jerusalem that is when the residents cried P&S, 

 

 can we really expect that BtG will be destroyed immediately or could it also take several years? 

 

I don't recall the residents of Jerusalem crying P&S.   The Roman armies retreat was unexpected, true.  But within Jerusalem there were rival factions in a power struggle of their own.  When Rome retreated, some of the faction groups turned the retreat into a rout.  It was not peaceful nor secure inside Jerusalem.

 

On the other point;  Study Notes on 1 Thessalonians say:  sudden destruction is the be instantly on them:  Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of "peace and security" and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry.

[IceBreeze]

15 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Can we really say that the second fulfillment must be faster?

Interesting question. What we know is that Jehovah will cut short the days. Mark 13:20 says; "In fact, unless Jehovah had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen, he has cut short the days".

 

With your question you seem to ask if the complete fulfillment, (the complete process) is going to be completed faster?

[LeolaRootStew]

26 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

I don't recall the residents of Jerusalem crying P&S.   The Roman armies retreat was unexpected, true.  But within Jerusalem there were rival factions in a power struggle of their own.  When Rome retreated, some of the faction groups turned the retreat into a rout.  It was not peaceful nor secure inside Jerusalem.

 

On the other point;  Study Notes on 1 Thessalonians say:  sudden destruction is the be instantly on them:  Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of "peace and security" and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry.

 

I would say that having an invading army turn tail and run would be cause for celebration for most people. 

 

I read the study notes, these are my own thoughts. I am guessing that the cry of P&S was made by those in Jerusalem, but the Bible doesn't say. Who do you think made the cry?

Edited May 11 by LeolaRootStew

[Doug]

On 5/10/2024 at 1:32 AM, JennyM said:

Will he just  consider the 2nd generation of the anointed?

 

Satan will target any anointed one he can.   But he would be aware of Jesus words at Mt. 24:34 and he would be aware of the current explanation of "this generation", and he would probably be aware of how many are still alive on earth.

 

If he knows how many there are, it stands to reason he knows who they are, their age and health.

 

What he may not know, is what Jesus meant when he said "this generation (group #2) will by no means pass away until all these things happen".  The GB has said the second group doesn't necessarily have to dwindle down to a few dozen, nor does it mean the last remaining ones will be all old and feeble.

 

So, "by no means" can be right now, today.  Even if there are some who are still in their 60's or even 50's.

[blue-jay]

9 hours ago, Richie said:

Don't be confuse please. Let the basic teach you well to avoid misundertanding. Most of us just expressing the "what if" condition. Trying to figure out the probability. 

I know. But I'm not talking about the speculations.

We believe that "peace & security" will be announced, or called for or whatever. And then right after that, Babylon the Great will be destroyed.

How exactly do we get to that believe?

Of course I read the study note, but that doesn't really explain it. I understand exactly what we believe, but can't explain it.  How do we get to that believe exactly?

In 1 Th 5:3, Babylon the Great isn't mentioned. It only says "they" "them". So how are we so convinced that BtG will be destroyed right after the pronouncement? 

I don't know how to explain it with scriptures. 

Can anyone help me please 🙏 

[LeolaRootStew]

7 minutes ago, IceBreeze said:

Interesting question. What we know is that Jehovah will cut short the days. Mark 13:20 says; "In fact, unless Jehovah had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen, he has cut short the days".

 

With your question you seem to ask if the complete fulfillment, (the complete process) is going to be completed faster?

 

It was a rhetorical question. You are the one claiming the destruction must come faster than the 4 years it took to be fulfilled the first time. I'm wondering what you are basing that on.

 

The scripture about it being cut "short" is talking about the first attack by Rome. It was cut short so the Christians could flee, but i still took about 4 years for it to be destroyed completely, so it wasn't the destruction itself that was cut short, it was the initial attack that was cut short.

[blue-jay]

18 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

 

 

On the other point;  Study Notes on 1 Thessalonians say:  sudden destruction is the be instantly on them:  Paul here indicates that there will be little or no time between the proclamation of "peace and security" and the destruction that will come upon those making that cry.

Would that mean that Babylon the Great herself makes the "peace & security" announcement? I don't get it.