Peace and Security, Great Tribulation, Armageddon

[trottigy]

8 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

 

 

I like the progression of this conundrum.  P&S will be very convincing to the world, but that won't matter to us.  However, being so convincing, to the world, it could not possibly go unnoticed by us, could it?

 

As it is, my ear is always tuned in to here a political figure use the P&S expression.  Biden, in his Oval Office speech yesterday, used those very words at 5:16. 

 

I also remember that scripture isn't fully understood until it's Jehovah's time for it to be understood.  As brother Herd said, we may read the scripture many times, but not fully understand until Jehovah "puts a light on it".

 

One more thought:  The GT actually begins with the sudden destruction of BtG.  Not with the fulfillment of 1 Thes. 5:3.

So, what purpose is served by the prophesy?  Especially if it might not even be realized that it has been accomplished in real time?

 

2 ideas:

 

1. I note this idea is only mentioned once where numerous other prophecies about the destruction of Babylon the Great are given. So, it is a minor prophecy versus the bigger one, but …

 

2. It is to keep students of the Bible on guard - even if it looks like things are finally "fixed" and everything is OK and "secure" - do NOT believe it!

 

OK, my turn for a question - NOTHING today looks "secure" or "peaceful" (NO PERSON alive today believes there is any "security" or "peace") - so, why did we need to be warned about someone just "saying" P&S?

Edited July 25 by trottigy

[Firefly]

47 minutes ago, Doug said:

One more thought:  The GT actually begins with the sudden destruction of BtG.  Not with the fulfillment of 1 Thes. 5:3.

So, what purpose is served by the prophesy?  Especially if it might not even be realized that it has been accomplished in real time?

 

[Ahuvah]

3 hours ago, zoebarry said:

P&S may have already been fulfilled. Sometimes understanding of prophecy being fulfilled isn’t understood till AFTER it has been fulfilled. Those with spiritual discernment can see prophecies being fulfilled. Don’t expect the brothers to make a big announcement at peace and security has been fulfilled.

As trottigy said ... the FDS has said it hasn't happened yet because BBTG is still live and kicking. You are correct hindsight will give the true story, but in this instance hindsight will include the shocking suddenness of it escalating into the GT. It may be so sudden the FDS may not have time to get us informed. But as they said, we will be left in no doubt as to what is happening. 

 

[Ahuvah]

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

 

 

OK, my turn for a question - NOTHING today looks "secure" or "peaceful" (NO PERSON alive today believes there is any "security" or "peace") - so, why did we need to be warned about someone just "saying" P&S?

I think it's because of the signs and wonders that will accompany it. Going back to the magic practicing priests in Moses time and Brother Schaefers talk. 

[Doug]

43 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

I think it's because of the signs and wonders that will accompany it. Going back to the magic practicing priests in Moses time and Brother Schaefers talk. 

 

So, included in the signs and wonders described at Mt. 24:24 is P&S?  1 Thess 5:3 is mentioned as one specific "sign / wonder" to expect from a false prophet (Satan).  There's a direct correlation between Mt 24: 24 and 1 Thess. 5:3

 

Therefore, Jehovah is letting us know it will happen so don't be fooled.  That's all?  

[Ahuvah]

7 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

So, included in the signs and wonders described at Mt. 24:24 is P&S?  1 Thess 5:3 is mentioned as one specific "sign / wonder" to expect from a false prophet (Satan).  There's a direct correlation between Mt 24: 24 and 1 Thess. 5:3

 

Therefore, Jehovah is letting us know it will happen so don't be fooled.  That's all?  

Have a listen to Brother Schaefers talk ... then make your own conclusion. I don't want to project my perspective. 

[Áine]

On 7/24/2024 at 1:10 PM, ChrisW said:

I understand. I went for a walk this morning and spoke to Jehovah. Whatever I am lacking I pray Jehovah gives me the insight to make whatever adjustments I need to before that day comes. And to help those that I can. Because it will be upon us before we know it. 

I also talk to Jehovah as I walk in the middle of nowhere… or when I garden, it just seems the natural thing to do

[Áine]

9 hours ago, Stormswift said:

Then how would the expressions of demons be so profound when calling P & S mislead even the 'holy ones'? Potentially.  I think we will see P&S ... but the fall of BTG will follow closely that we won't have time to catch our breath if we are relaxing spiritually. Remember P&S are actions of unclean demonic expressions and BTGs fall is Jehovah in action.

I agree with this especially… The slave has said that they don’t know if events will happen very closely or almost simultaneously, we certainly live in very exciting times…. And still the eyes of the unbelievers are blinded 

[Osprey]

1 hour ago, Stormswift said:

I think it's because of the signs and wonders that will accompany it. Going back to the magic practicing priests in Moses time and Brother Schaefers talk. 

 

Well, I don't know... but this idea about magical miracles inspired by demons being performed during this time that would somehow help to convince people just sounds very strange to me. On one side seems like general population will be pushed into some atheistic direction by destroying religions, on the other side some miracles would help to convince them about P&S? I just don't understand this, maybe I am missing something.

[Ahuvah]

2 minutes ago, Osprey said:

 

Well, I don't know... but this idea about magical miracles inspired by demons being performed during this time that would somehow help to convince people just sounds very strange to me. On one side seems like general population will be pushed into some atheistic direction by destroying religions, on the other side some miracles would help to convince them about P&S? I just don't understand this, maybe I am missing something.

Have a listen to the talk by Brother Schaefer and you will see where I'm coming from. My words came directly from that talk in conjunction with scripture.  Remember the time approaching is unprecedented... so even the Magic practicing priests will have nothing on what's coming.

Edited July 25 by Stormswift

[Araujo JW]

3 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Have a listen to the talk by Brother Schaefer and you will see where I'm coming from. My words came directly from that talk in conjunction with scripture.  Remember the time approaching is unprecedented... so even the Magic practicing priests will have nothing on what's coming.

 

Just to give everyone some context, Sister Mandi refers to this talk:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/pub-jwb_201802_12_VIDEO

[zoebarry]

3 hours ago, trottigy said:

If the proclamation of P&S as stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 has already happened then why hasn't the rest of the verse been true – the “sudden and instant destruction” of BtG?

Yes, Jerry, I know you have said this before, and you are stuck on the word, SUDDEN or IMMEDIATE…… but I think you failed to take in consideration that our idea of “sudden“ is different than Jehovah‘s view of “sudden”.

 

Jehovah told Adam and Eve, that if they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, they would die in that day, yet how long was that day? Almost 1000 years.  The  idea of sudden in our imperfect minds, may be a day, week, month, year, etc. But in Jehovah’s mind, it may be longer, maybe even a couple of years, like a day was 1000 years in Jehovah’s mind.

 

Yes,  I agree we will not know 100% know until Babylon is destroyed that P&S has already happened. But I don’t understand why you were so close minded to  possibility that it might’ve already happened or we are in the midst of it now…. I think the fact that it already may have happened, only emphasizes the urgency of our time. This is no time to be sitting on the fence or holding back in our service to Jehovah!

 

[Jwanon]

9 minutes ago, zoebarry said:

But I don’t understand why you were so close minded to  possibility that it might’ve already happened or we are in the midst of it now….

 

He is not necessarily close minded, just unconvinced...like I am 😌

[Ahuvah]

25 minutes ago, zoebarry said:

Yes, Jerry, I know you have said this before, and you are stuck on the word, SUDDEN or IMMEDIATE…… but I think you failed to take in consideration that our idea of “sudden“ is different than Jehovah‘s view of “sudden”.

 

Jehovah told Adam and Eve, that if they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, they would die in that day, yet how long was that day? Almost 1000 years.  The  idea of sudden in our imperfect minds, may be a day, week, month, year, etc. But in Jehovah’s mind, it may be longer, maybe even a couple of years, like a day was 1000 years in Jehovah’s mind.

 

Yes,  I agree we will not know 100% know until Babylon is destroyed that P&S has already happened. But I don’t understand why you were so close minded to  possibility that it might’ve already happened or we are in the midst of it now…. I think the fact that it already may have happened, only emphasizes the urgency of our time. This is no time to be sitting on the fence or holding back in our service to Jehovah!

 

The FDS have been very clear that the saying of P&S has not occurred because in this instance the time between this and the demise of BBTG is very short and this is the one of the things that proves it hasn't happened because she is very much live and kicking right now.

I know this, because I've done the research but silly me did not note the reference. So here is my suggestion: Type 'Peace & Security' into jw.org and scroll down to the morning worships there ... I am certain it is contained in one of those six videos. I'll be listening later so when I come across it - I'll post the link. Also the research guide and references for 1 Thess 5:3 indicates it is heralding a suddenness of the GT. 

Also that talk by Brother Schaeffer linked kindly by Brother Arujo is talking about significant signs and wonders connected with P&S. 

It's probably best, in my humble opinion, to stick with what has been said, not what hasn't been said. 

Edited July 25 by Stormswift

[Doug]

4 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Have a listen to the talk by Brother Schaefer and you will see where I'm coming from. My words came directly from that talk in conjunction with scripture.  Remember the time approaching is unprecedented... so even the Magic practicing priests will have nothing on what's coming.

 

His talk had some very good points to think about.  The talk is already 6 years ago, and we know how fast things change.

 

One statement I wish could be clarified is at 3:20. Quote: "Moreover according to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 they will soon be saying they have actually achieved peace and security."   Is this our current understanding?  'Achieved' in the present or past tense?

 

He made a strong case for "inspired expressions" that would be so compelling, so persuasive, as to "gather the kings of the entire inhabited earth" to the war of the great day of God the Almighty?  How could these demonic lies go unnoticed by Christians who are on the lookout for those very things?   I can't imagine we won't know as the prophesy unfolds in real time.  Maybe be can compare it to the pointed stakes that were placed around Jerusalem.  Very obvious.

 

Is there a transcript of Br Schafer's talk from 2018?

[Ahuvah]

There is also a recent WT reference I'm searching for ... when I find it ... I will share it and record the ref in my new database of references so I don't forget it. haha. 

 

NB: I'm not concerned that that talk is six years old, age doesn't have a bearing on anything UNLESS there's been a more recent talk or publication that changes that understanding. 

Edited July 25 by Stormswift

[Ahuvah]

21 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

There is also a recent WT reference I'm searching for ... when I find it ... I will share it and record the ref in my new database of references so I don't forget it. haha. 

 

NB: I'm not concerned that that talk is six years old, age doesn't have a bearing on anything UNLESS there's been a more recent talk or publication that changes that understanding. 

 

WATCHTOWER 11/15 2013

¹¹ However, that announcement and others like it did not fulfill the prophecy at 1 Thessalonians 5:3 about “peace and security.” Why not? Because “sudden destruction” has not yet happened.

 

IF there is a more recent reference that refutes or clarifies this further I'd be very interested in it. But I understand that this is our current understanding. I'm always open to be corrected though - love seeing new clarifications. 

[Sofia]

4 hours ago, trottigy said:

 

If the proclamation of P&S as stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 has already happened then why hasn't the rest of the verse been true – the “sudden and instant destruction” of BtG?

 

 

No, it has not happened yet. 

 

Note the comment on this verse in the study Bible:

 

 

This is why the slave regularly points to the destruction of Babylon the Great as the beginning as it will be the thing we can see - without doubt. 

According to the slave the ones saying P&S are the ones being destroyed 

that makes sense according to Is.47:7-9 and that religious leaders may/will join the governments proclaiming it

[Ahuvah]

Just now, Sofia said:

According to the slave the ones saying P&S are the ones being destroyed 

that makes sense according to Is.47:7-9 and that religious leaders may/will join the governments proclaiming it

YES! Brother Jackson's visual timeline in the talk that introduced the 'Ezekiel' book makes that very clear. 

[trottigy]

58 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

His talk had some very good points to think about.  The talk is already 6 years ago, and we know how fast things change.

 

One statement I wish could be clarified is at 3:20. Quote: "Moreover according to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 they will soon be saying they have actually achieved peace and security."   Is this our current understanding?  'Achieved' in the present or past tense?

 

He made a strong case for "inspired expressions" that would be so compelling, so persuasive, as to "gather the kings of the entire inhabited earth" to the war of the great day of God the Almighty?  How could these demonic lies go unnoticed by Christians who are on the lookout for those very things?   I can't imagine we won't know as the prophesy unfolds in real time.  Maybe be can compare it to the pointed stakes that were placed around Jerusalem.  Very obvious.

 

Is there a transcript of Br Schafer's talk from 2018?

 

Yes, this is our current understanding.

 

So then there IS a good reason to issue a warning. Basically, be ready to ACTUALLY see what looks like REAL peace and SECURITY, but don't be fooled. It is just magic from the demons that is making it look like everything is finally ok.

 

With that in mind, no I cant accept that it has ever been peaceful and secure in my life time, yet. But, maybe very soon.

 

Otherwise, the warning at 1 Thessalonians is just meaningless.

 

See the latest Watchtower on this:

 

Quote

When this happens, people may think that world leaders have succeeded in making the world a safer, more secure place. But in reality, “sudden destruction” will follow as the “great tribulation” unfolds.—Matt. 24:21.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2019602#h=9:0-11:0

 

EDIT: no human I know of "think(s) that world leaders have succeeded in making the world safer, more secure place". 

 

The future is sure going to be interesting, eh!

 

 

Edited July 25 by trottigy

[Doug]

3 minutes ago, trottigy said:

 

Yes, this is our current understanding.

 

 but don't be fooled. It is just magic from the demons that is making it look like everything is finally ok.

 

 

With at least two hot wars going on, the "lying signs" would be very persuasive if one or both of those wars ended.

[New World Explorer]

20 hours ago, Sofia said:

How? Without ending these two conflicts?

looks weird… but then they are the Slave and I’m not 😆

i have 🤷‍♀️ 

Yep, I am confused as well. 

[Ahuvah]

2 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

Yep, I am confused as well. 

It could SEEM like they've ended? Perhaps this is where the signs and wonders come in ... a slight of hand ... something that is both convincing but deceitful in the same breath. I guess we can pose your question again in the future. 

[computerwiz]

23 minutes ago, trottigy said:

EDIT: no human I know of "think(s) that world leaders have succeeded in making the world safer, more secure place". 

 

Shoulda met this guy in our territory about 6-8 years ago.  Threw my whole presentation off when he said the world is a better place, news just makes it seem bad.  Never found another one like him though...  

 

I'd be curious how he feels today.  But we go to a neighboring cong now....so not in my territory anymore.

Edited July 25 by computerwiz

[Ahuvah]

Just now, computerwiz said:

 

Shoulda met this guy in our territory about 6-8 years ago.  Threw my whole presentation off when he said the world is a better place, news just makes it seem bad.  Never found another one like him though...  

We had a similar guy on the carts a few weeks back, he gave the credit for the world being a better place to the Military.  Which, ironically NZ doesn't have a lot of.