Why can't we choose where we are born?

[Ishaya]

 

Jehovah set the process that impartially got everyone to where they are,no one had a chance to choose really.I mean anyone could have been born anywhere actually.

 

If I was born an Arab or Persian,I'd probably be a devout muslim till now and never get to become a JW.
If I was born a European I'd probably still be an Atheist and despise Jehovah.If i was born an Indian I'd probably still revere Krishna and bath in the Ganges river piously.If I was born in Asia I'd probably be a reclusive Bhuddist monk all my life.

It got me thinking really;

What is the wisedom in humans NOT having a chance to decide where or how they should be born? I mean like The family,the clan,the tribe,the race,the country etc.
 

[Qapla]

Let's see what we can determine:

• An embryo in the womb cannot decide anything. Never could. Even a newborn baby can't make decisions - so, no one can decide where they want to be born.
• Families can move and live elsewhere - being born in a particular location does not require you live there your whole life or generation-after-generation.
• On this very forum we have JW's who were born in India, Europe, Asia, North America, Africa and many other countries and/or continents. We also have members who have moved from one place to another, even to different countries, continents, hemispheres ... just because we are born in a certain place does not say we cannot respond to Jehovah.

 

As interesting as your topic on picturing your life elsewhere was, this topic does not have such merit ... IMHO

 

 

[Ludwika]

32 minutes ago, Ishaya said:

 

Jehovah set the process that impartially got everyone to where they are,no one had a chance to choose really.I mean anyone could have been born anywhere actually.

 

If I was born an Arab or Persian,I'd probably be a devout muslim till now and never get to become a JW.
If I was born a European I'd probably still be an Atheist and despise Jehovah.If i was born an Indian I'd probably still revere Krishna and bath in the Ganges river piously.If I was born in Asia I'd probably be a reclusive Bhuddist monk all my life.

It got me thinking really;

What is the wisedom in humans NOT having a chance to decide where or how they should be born? I mean like The family,the clan,the tribe,the race,the country etc.
 

Ummmm, how could you choose where to be born before you even exist? 

[hatcheckgirl]

I’m glad that my parents migrated to Australia after the Second World War, or I would have grown up in very different circumstances. I have thought of what my life would have been like if they had not moved. So we can imagine the “what ifs”.

 

But Jehovah is not the one that has anything to do with the socio/political/religious regions of our country of birth. We know this is satans scheming and his world. But what Jehovah has done is put in place his own purpose to have the good news preached everywhere, regardless of where you are born (because we don’t have a say in this). Whoever he sees who is inclined with the right heart condition, he draws them into his loving organisation.

 

We know there are millions of people in lands where the preaching is banned, so we have faith that Jehovah will sort out those deserving ones in whatever way he chooses. It’s a comfort to know that no matter where we have been born, Jehovah knows those who belong to him.

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, Ishaya said:

What is the wisedom in humans NOT having a chance to decide where or how they should be born

I was going to tell my parents where I wanted to be born but i wasn't sure which one to talk to... I felt beside myself until conception... After that i couldn't make up my tiny mind where i wanted to be born.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Tortuga

[BLEmom]

We don’t ask to be born at all either. And yet here we are…

[Sheep]

I sometimes wonder about that too. If my mother happened to be a Hindu rather than having a background in Christendom, then very likely I would have become a Hindu. However that was never carved in stone. Even though I was born in Canada, into a family that professed faith in Jesus, I did not automatically follow them into their version of Christianity. Not necessarily. As it happened, in my teen years of growing up (my mother had already died by that time) I just drifted away from my parents' church and became what you might call agnostic. Whatever I was, I wasn't really a firm believer in any kind of faith system or "religion." Perhaps that set the stage for me. There's a point in this week's Watchtower, speaking of children, that says: When they show the slightest sign of being “rightly disposed,” he will be there, reaching out to them. When I reached the point of being almost "rightly disposed," it was then that Jehovah began to draw me to him.—John 6:44

 

Did it really matter where or when I was born that made the difference? Or did it make a difference who my mother was? I am not at all convinced of that. In whatever circumstances I was in, or could have been in, maybe Jehovah, who sees everything, found some disposition in me that he liked. And he acted on it when the time was right.

 

At least, that's the way I like to think of it...

[New World Explorer]

I wanted to tell them to be born near a donut shop, so I could smell freshly baked donuts while embracing first sensations of being born … well, I did not succeed. 🤣 LOL

6 hours ago, Ishaya said:

f I was born an Arab or Persian,I'd probably be a devout muslim till now and never get to become a JW.

Nobody is beyond Jehovah's reach. Our everlasting welfare does not depend on a place we are born into. 

6 hours ago, Ishaya said:

What is the wisedom in humans NOT having a chance to decide where or how they should be born? I mean like The family,the clan,the tribe,the race,the country etc

We face similar choice now...We can choose to be part of spiritual God's family, or reject that arrangement. 

[Dages]

The purpose of the preaching work is also about this : whatever the circumstances, everyone can hear about Jehovah and humbly accept his will.

[Ishaya]

15 hours ago, Qapla said:

 

As interesting as your topic on picturing your life elsewhere was, this topic does not have such merit ... IMHO

 

 

 

Its okay to feel this way,I understand perfectly.

Actually,there is no such thing as prehuman existence and it may seem very weird to even bring up a topic about it,I apologize for that.

But, we all agree that with Jehovah there are limitless possibilities,only if chooses not to work in certain ways.

 

I think its simple for Jehovah,if he wanted,he could insert a prehuman phase In our life cycle and allow us to decide the place and condition of our birth in that phase,again I agree it  weird to even imagine this.

 

But I just feel that in Jehovah's design approach,every detail carries nuggets of wisedom for our enlightenment,hence this topic.

Actually its just a search for more wisedom.

 

I'm only wondering why Jehovah will deliberately exempt the possibility of a prehuman phase and simply allow the natural process to put people randomly anywhere.

 

[Tortuga]

Life before life? Reincarnation?

 

This is a strange and fruitless topic.

[Ishaya]

4 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Life before life? Reincarnation?

 

This is a strange and fruitless topic.

 

we cannot quickly conclude that actually,since it's a discussion others might have something enlightening to say,you might be surprised.

Just to be clear,no one is saying prehuman existance or reincarnation is true,But we know that Jehovah can do this if he wanted to and no one is suggesting That Jehovah might do this.
Jesus had a prehuman existance right? His tribe,clan,race,family and nation was arranged.

Jehovah could have done the same for other humans if he wanted to,but I already know its not that way for other  humans (I've been a JW long enough to know that).

Im only wondering why he doesn't and the wisdom in not doing that for  humans.

 

Put simply,no one choose to be born where they find themselves,its an entirely random process.but what wisdom of Jehovah is seen in this approach and what can we learn from this in appreciation of Jehovah.

 

[New World Explorer]

2 hours ago, Ishaya said:

Jesus had a prehuman existance right? His tribe,clan,race,family and nation was arranged.

Jehovah could have done the same for other humans if he wanted to

I am not sure if this is valid and reasonable comparison. 

2 hours ago, Ishaya said:

Put simply,no one choose to be born where they find themselves,its an entirely random process

No, it wasn't random for me ... I won the race to the egg! boy..oh boy..that was crowded, still have some bruises from the race!  LOL 

[Brother_Bliss]

5 hours ago, Ishaya said:

Jesus had a prehuman existance right? His tribe,clan,race,family and nation was arranged.

Jesus was "conceived" and had life even long before Adam. By contrast, we simply do not exist prior to our conception when the reproductive powers of your mother and father came together to produce you. Not only did you not have any say in that matter, you also didn't even have the ability to make choices at all until sometime after you were born. 

 

The fact that some are born into advantageous situations while others are born with disadvantages is a result of this system that is of Satan's design, not Jehovah's. When Jehovah sets things straight, every child born in the new system will have an equal start. 

 

 

[Hotteok]

I often wonder how people who had really miserable lives (orphans, children of rapes, aborted ones etc) in the old system would feel in the new world when they realize they've been just resurrected.

 

Will they curse their parents?

Will they curse Jehovah for bringing them back to life?

Maybe for a while.. Some of them might even rebel at the last test.

 

Yet I believe the majority of them will be so happy and glad that they won't really care about HOW they were born in the old system..

As Jehovah promised, we must believe that He will wipe out all our tears and erase all our sad memories. 

[Brother_Bliss]

1 hour ago, VisualizeUrParadise said:

Will they curse their parents?

Will they curse Jehovah for bringing them back to life?
 

I believe the majority of them will be so happy and glad that they won't really care

Yeah, that pretty much sums up me. If I have flatlined or am considered dead, the last thing I am gonna do is curse the one who resuscitated me

[Ishaya]

On 6/26/2022 at 6:42 AM, New World Explorer said:

 

Nobody is beyond Jehovah's reach.

 

 

That's true,

But talking about helping people to become JWs,a lot more comes into play.

Basically,there are two ways Jehovah can change or convert people to his true worship;
(1) miraculous conversion;
we see this in the case of the Apostle Paul as an example,his conversion was instantaneous.
miraculous conversion has no limitation as it is a direct conversion by Jehovah himself, the most powerful being in the universe.the whole world would be Jehovah witnesses long before now  if Jehovah miraculously converts people like in the case of paul.
.
(2) Disciple-making:
disciple-making is an indirect method of conversion since Jehovah is using  a human agent to do this.

Disciple-making is the standard or common method of conversion that Jehovah uses.Almost every JW got converted  indirectly through disciple making.

unfortunately,disciple making has alot of limitations and is stiffled by a plethora of challenging factors such as condition and circumstances of people to be converted, birth place and location of upbringing of people to be converted,governmental restrictions and even limitations of the human conversion agents etc
 this are  the reason why in some regions of the world JWs are still very very few even though rightly-disposed people may also be seen in those places.

which makes me to wonder why Jehovah will prefer an obviously slow and seriously challenging option of disciple-making over the expeditious miraculous approach.

[Dages]

26 minutes ago, Ishaya said:

(1) miraculous conversion;
we see this in the case of the Apostle Paul as an example,his conversion was instantaneous.
miraculous conversion has no limitation as it is a direct conversion by Jehovah himself, the most powerful being in the universe.the whole world would be Jehovah witnesses long before now  if Jehovah miraculously converts people like in the case of paul.

No it wasn't.

Paul still had to obey to the instruction, and humbly accept what was happening.

God did not magically convert Paul. Paul has freewill.

 

God cannot force a conversion. If he did, that would not be a conversion. A conversion has to come from the person being converted. Not magic coercion. That would give points to Satan argument.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Dages

[New World Explorer]

1 hour ago, Ishaya said:

 

That's true,

But talking about helping people to become JWs,a lot more comes into play.

Basically,there are two ways Jehovah can change or convert people to his true worship;
(1) miraculous conversion;
we see this in the case of the Apostle Paul as an example,his conversion was instantaneous.
miraculous conversion has no limitation as it is a direct conversion by Jehovah himself, the most powerful being in the universe.the whole world would be Jehovah witnesses long before now  if Jehovah miraculously converts people like in the case of paul.
.
(2) Disciple-making:
disciple-making is an indirect method of conversion since Jehovah is using  a human agent to do this.

Disciple-making is the standard or common method of conversion that Jehovah uses.Almost every JW got converted  indirectly through disciple making.

unfortunately,disciple making has alot of limitations and is stiffled by a plethora of challenging factors such as condition and circumstances of people to be converted, birth place and location of upbringing of people to be converted,governmental restrictions and even limitations of the human conversion agents etc
 this are  the reason why in some regions of the world JWs are still very very few even though rightly-disposed people may also be seen in those places.

which makes me to wonder why Jehovah will prefer an obviously slow and seriously challenging option of disciple-making over the expeditious miraculous approach.

What about Jehovah exercising mercy allowing someone to pass through Armageddon (lets say person from North Korea, who never heard Kingdom message) 

You limit Jehovah by your reasoning. 

[Ishaya]

57 minutes ago, Dages said:

No it wasn't.

Paul still had to obey to the instruction, and humbly accept what was happening.

God did not magically convert Paul. Paul has freewill.

 

God cannot force a conversion. If he did, that would not be a conversion. A conversion has to come from the person being converted. Not magic coercion. That would give points to Satan argument.

 

I'm not sure you understood what I meant by miraculous conversion,its not the same thing as forced conversion.

 

Paul had a very unique opportunity of getting a firsthand prove from divine revelation of Jesus Christ,a remarkable prove to him that Christianity was the true religion not Judaism.

 

What people really need to to become JWs is convincing prove that only we have Jehovah's support and practice his true worship.

With sufficient or remarkable prove, it becomes easy for someone to decide to join in the true worship out of their freewill.

[Ishaya]

9 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

I am not sure if this is valid and reasonable comparison. 

No,

 

 

it is not a comparison actually,it is only an example to show what Jehovah is able to do in his limitless power.

 

10 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

 

No, it wasn't random for me ... I won the race to the egg! boy..oh boy..that was crowded, still have some bruises from the race!  LOL 

Now that's humorous, Lol.

 

But how do you mean its not random how we all got to where we are by birth?

[Ishaya]

30 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

What about Jehovah exercising mercy allowing someone to pass through Armageddon (lets say person from North Korea, who never heard Kingdom message) 

You limit Jehovah by your reasoning. 

 

No one can limit Jehovah's power,far be it from me to even attempt to do that.Jehovah is limitlessly powerful and that fills me with awe and admiration for him.

 

A lot of people will be shown mercy at Armageddon because their circumstances obviously made it impossible for them to accept the truth even though they were rightly disposed for everlasting.

 

But please remember that what we are saying is that someone's circumstance or place of birth can determine whether they become a JW or not even if they are rightly disposed for everlasting life.

If  I was born into an Arab or Persian family and spend my entire life in the middle east and only know Islam as the true religion,there is no way I would have become a JW even if I was rightly disposed for everlasting life.

 

So realistically,the kingdom truth will not reach everyone, so not every rightly disposed person will become a JW, but Jehovah's mercy can certainly reach everywhere,no one argues this.

 

 

[Dages]

38 minutes ago, Ishaya said:

 

With sufficient or remarkable prove, it becomes easy for someone to decide to join in the true worship out of their freewill.

Adam and Eve had this... they rejected it.

[Ishaya]

19 minutes ago, Dages said:

Adam and Eve had this... they rejected it.

Thats true,

 

but its not the same for someone like Paul who had fiery zeal for Jehovah but was only lacking accurate knowledge and prove that Christianity was Jehovah's approved religion instead of Judaism.

Jehovah watches the heart you know.

 

Adam and zeal didn't have zeal for Jehovah so it didn't make any difference what prove they had sadly.

similarly the Jews that witnessed firsthand Jehovah's miraculous deeds in the wilderness still failed to show commitment because of lack of zeal for Jehovah.

 

 

[Dages]

1 hour ago, Ishaya said:

similarly the Jews that witnessed firsthand Jehovah's miraculous deeds in the wilderness still failed to show commitment because of lack of zeal for Jehovah.

True, as Jesus explained : they would not believe, even if they saw someone resurrected...